More on religion

twerp? is that one of those "thorn" words? :smile:

Orpheus said:
twerp? is that one of those "thorn" words? :smile:

Yep, that's the one :wink:

Gollum said:
Your point amounts to rejecting one of the theist's fundamental premises. There's nothing wrong with this viewpoint - saying that God is not perfectly good - but it's not the viewpoint at which I had targetted my discussion.

your arguement hinged on how the four assumptions that you put forward were fundamental beliefs of a theist, and to deny any one of these beliefs would be to "relinquish the traditional concept of god."

it was the bit in quotes^ that prompted my response. i seen it as satanic subterfuge.

traditionally, isn't our social/individual concept of god derived from biblical texts? believing this to be the case, i used one of those traditional texts to expose your lies.

haha, get behind me.

I think Gollum was perfectly correct to state those four assumptions as the basis for mainstream theism. "fundementalism" is a rapidly growing force in America, I don't know how prevelent it is in Britian. Anyone belonging to this particular division of christianity would go apes**t at you if you were to attack any one of the four premises Gollum put forward. I've experienced this numerous times shudder

Tracer Bullet said:
I don't know how prevelent it is in Britian.

It's not, thankfully- you'll always get the 'God Squad' running around in their funny jumpers and singing in the middle of the road though, but oh well, just smile and ignore them :smile:

one of these days, you guys are going to pick a topic, i can keep up with AND participate from beginning to end..

contrary to popular belief, i know much more than the viscosity of human waste

starts chanting

kumbya my lord kumbya...

walks away humming tune off key

traditionally, isn't our social/individual concept of god derived from biblical texts? believing this to be the case, i used one of those traditional texts to expose your lies.

Lies? Dear me, St. Thomas would turn in his grave :wink:

Besides, the bible is too easy a target for inconsistency arguments :razz:

inconsistencies?!?! but that would mean...

oh no, please tell me its not true, its all a vicious rumor spread by the heretics and non-believers. :rolleyes:

Tracer Bullet said:
From my perspective Lep, God might will repect your decision to be an atheist. I believe in an afterlife, though beyond that I've no idea what it is. I also believe that you do not have to be a christian to experience it. I'm perfectly willing to assume that I may meet you in "heaven".

Sorry to drag this up again, but I've had a thought- my more learned Christian friends would tell me that as a non-believer, I will simply not go to heaven. Presumably you've all read the bible. What am I meant to make of such vagueness and ambiguity over this point, I am confused by the message the bible gives us, which surely can't be right for the perfect Word of God.

I mean, the bible tells us that slavery is ok (Leviticus 25, Exodus 21- God says to Moses, "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."- and even Jesus says it's okay to beat your slaves, in Luke 12).

There are also a lot of instances where God says it's acceptable to kill a man for certain reasons, e.g. if they hit their parents (Exodus 21), adultery or homosexuality (Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 22), atheists or people who believe in other religions (2 Chronicles 15, Deuteronomy 13- this passage even states you should burn down whole towns which contain even one non-believer!), or even working on a Sunday (Exodus 31). Isiaiah 14:21 also tells us it's okay to slay the children of people who have done wrong. God also says that if a man rapes an unmarried woman he must pay a fine, and that they must get married.

These morals are taught along with the 'standard set' that Christianity is meant to stand on- they're from the same books- but are, strangely, ignored. I am muchly confused about the message of the bible, and how you have to cherry-pick it for it to seem 'right'.

Wll first off, my beliefs do not reflect the bulk of Christianity. I take the bible with a gigantic grain of salt. however, it should be noted that the items you references are side notes. The important messages of the bible are portrayed through the stories much like the parables Jesus told. it's the larger structure, not the individual elemnts. I see many parts of the bible, such as the whole sale genicide commited by the isrealites as a tribes effort to justify their actions. The bible was written by people, just like any book, and is therefore flawd in some very obveous ways.

Leperous said:

Tracer Bullet said:
From my perspective Lep, God might will repect your decision to be an atheist. I believe in an afterlife, though beyond that I've no idea what it is. I also believe that you do not have to be a christian to experience it. I'm perfectly willing to assume that I may meet you in "heaven".

Sorry to drag this up again, but I've had a thought- my more learned Christian friends would tell me that as a non-believer, I will simply not go to heaven. Presumably you've all read the bible. What am I meant to make of such vagueness and ambiguity over this point, I am confused by the message the bible gives us, which surely can't be right for the perfect Word of God.

I mean, the bible tells us that slavery is ok (Leviticus 25, Exodus 21- God says to Moses, "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."- and even Jesus says it's okay to beat your slaves, in Luke 12).

There are also a lot of instances where God says it's acceptable to kill a man for certain reasons, e.g. if they hit their parents (Exodus 21), adultery or homosexuality (Leviticus 20, Deuteronomy 22), atheists or people who believe in other religions (2 Chronicles 15, Deuteronomy 13- this passage even states you should burn down whole towns which contain even one non-believer!), or even working on a Sunday (Exodus 31). Isiaiah 14:21 also tells us it's okay to slay the children of people who have done wrong. God also says that if a man rapes an unmarried woman he must pay a fine, and that they must get married.

These morals are taught along with the 'standard set' that Christianity is meant to stand on- they're from the same books- but are, strangely, ignored. I am muchly confused about the message of the bible, and how you have to cherry-pick it for it to seem 'right'.

Yeah - I just had a look through that bit and was horrified, this bit jumped out of the page at me:

... He shall be bought brought to the door to the doorstep; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life

Lovelly.

Ok, but the point was still over going to heaven, i.e. the main reason why anyone becomes religious.

Leperous said:
Ok, but the point was still over going to heaven, i.e. the main reason why anyone becomes religious.

From my own experiance people become religious because thats how they were raised. I went to 'Sunday School' for a long time, but stopped going due to my athiest beliefs. So its not all about heaven. The truth as I see it is that nobody knows for sure what happens when we die, so the best idea as I see it is to live our lives as best as we can, willing to co-operate with our fellow man and not to descriminate. Which brings something else up. What of this whole n0ob thing? Surely if we we'rnt so offish towards new members, then a whole load of people would begin mapping. Then again, maybe the damage is done.