I'm sorry but that post is idiotic. Did you think that perhaps if it goes from 200 to 400 in an old game like quake 3, then it may go from not playable to playable in a newer game? Jeez, Quake3 is well known as scaling well with new hardware and being a good indicator of harware performance, that's why they still use it! If the number for your CPU isn't as high as the one given there then you should take a leaf out of your own book and 'bother to read the whole thing': you will notice that they use non standard settings - I can't imagine you run quake3 at 640*480*16?

they can't really make processors go faster then 3ghz

The expected limit to current CPU technologies is around 10GHz. 3GHz isn't even a limit of current architechtures, with prescott expecting to go to 4GHz in Q4 (I think, maybe Q1 05).

looks down Sorry WildCard, my post doesn't have anything to do with you question any more..

scrathes forhead lol

a 'lil bit off topic, but I wanted to share this with you guys:

TomsHardware.com overclocked a processor to 5 Ghz, by cooling with liquid nitrogen: http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20031230/index.html

check out the video.

Yea I saw that, it was really cool.

pun intended? :smile:

Wild Card said:
scrathes forhead lol

Yea... what the hell...

scrathes forhead some more

Nevermind, I was thinking maybe because it is talking about liquid nitrogen and stuff that you were saying 'really cool' as some kind of joke... guess only I think of jokes that lame :smile:

scary_jeff said:
3GHz isn't even a limit of current architechtures, with prescott expecting to go to 4GHz in Q4 (I think, maybe Q1 05).

I read somewhere today they're thinking upto 5ghz for the Prescott?

Oh probably, those clever Intel monkeys :smile: The point is that 3GHz is no kind of limit.

I'm sorry but that post is idiotic. Did you think that perhaps if it goes from 200 to 400 in an old game like quake 3, then it may go from not playable to playable in a newer game? Jeez, Quake3 is well known as scaling well with new hardware and being a good indicator of harware performance, that's why they still use it! If the number for your CPU isn't as high as the one given there then you should take a leaf out of your own book and 'bother to read the whole thing': you will notice that they use non standard settings - I can't imagine you run quake3 at 640*480*16?

[size=13][color=white]they can't really make processors go faster then 3ghz

The expected limit to current CPU technologies is around 10GHz. 3GHz isn't even a limit of current architechtures, with prescott expecting to go to 4GHz in Q4 (I think, maybe Q1 05).

looks down Sorry WildCard, my post doesn't have anything to do with you question any more..[/color][/size]

First off, having it be an indicator for performance increase in other games is fine, I just said that in that specific game you wouldn't notice a difference, and yes I noticed the non-standard setting the used, I'm not blind.

Also, the thought going into processors not being higher then 3ghz is that it's not solving the problem by increasing clock speed. I wasn't aware of the further limits, most companies are clocking out at 3ghz and moving on to other, better, architectures.

Thirdly, f**k you for attacking me. I don't see the reason for your attack on my post, I don't care if you don't agree or if you're getting pissed off because I'm not 100% agreeing with you, there's no need to be a dick every time I say something.

perhaps some calming of downs is in order. to be honest, at this point, who really cares about them 3+Ghz computers.

If you saw the settings they used, as you say you did, then why did you post "quake III at times, don't go above 90fps or so, and I that chart says that my processor should allow somewhere around 219fps"? Why would yo say something like this if you were perfectly aware that the 219 listed was for completely different settings to the ones you use?

most companies are clocking out at 3ghz and moving on to other, better, architectures

That isn't what you said. You said "they can't really make processors go faster then 3ghz" - this is an incorrect statement. Whether that is what you meant or not is irrelevant, that's what you said, so don't tell me to f**k off for pointing out that you were wrong.

there's no need to be a dick every time I say something

There is no need to go rambling on about complicated harware issues that you are not very good at explaining every time somebody asks if they should go for the athlon 2000 or 2500, or if the radeon 9600 is better than the 5700, or whatever.

I'm sorry but that post is idiotic.

f**k you.

I can't imagine you run quake3 at 640*480*16?

I have used 640 x 480 at times to run games, and yes in quake 3 it does not equal anything near 219.

I didn't say I was pissed about you pointing out a mistake I made. I even claimed that I was mistaken. Thirdly, you are being a dick. Every time I say something you take half of what I say to be literal truths when most of them are generalizations on the architecture.(which I pointed out) I didn't go into a full blown explination of the interworkings for WC, I mainly did it to show that the processor isn't the most important part, And on my very first post I made my suggestion of what he should get, then people started questioning it. Thus all the explination. At this point it seems you are looking at my posts purly for something to bitch about.

OK, so you are saying they lied on that link I posted? Either you accept it as being representative, or you don't. I posted a link which showed that the CPU makes a big diifference, and you made out like it was somehow not valid and not relevant for no reason, proceeding to make up a limit that doesn't exist, before inserting a load of irrelevant information about itanium? It doesn't make sense.

"I'll take animal sounds for 200"

"This is the sound a doggy makes?"

"moo"

"incorect"

"Thats the sound your mother made last night"

"Please Sir, we didnt need you to say that. We would have accepted bow-wow, or ruff."

"Ah, ruff... Just like your mother likes it"

OK, so you are saying they lied on that link I posted? Either you accept it as being representative, or you don't. I posted a link which showed that the CPU makes a big diifference, and you made out like it was somehow not valid and not relevant for no reason, proceeding to make up a limit that doesn't exist, before inserting a load of irrelevant information about itanium? It doesn't make sense.

What in God's name are you talking about?? I'm serious here.

I didn't say they were lying or that the processor didn't improve performance, Jesus, I've said it in like 5 posts already. Either you're not fully understanding the words I'm putting on the screen or you're making a giant issue out of nothing. What I said was that their benchmarking isn't totally representative of total performance speeds because all it shows is frames per second. All that shows is how fast the processor can write out instructions (and the video card can write them to the screen). THATS IT! That's all I said, then I mentioned it would have been better if they mentioned a poly count with it so you could see how much work the video card was really doing. I don't understand how you're getting skewed perspectives of my posts, you're either not reading what I'm typing or you're assuming too much and glancing over my words. Either way, it's becoming really annoying.

Secondly, I mentioned Itanium as an example of what has been done to try to eliminate the bus's small bandwidth issue.

Anyway, WildCard I hope you got your question answered. No need posting anything else Jeff, if you want to call me an idiot some more you can PM me, but this is a pointless conversation now. You're no longer discussing these issue, but rather trying to find falisities in my wording so you can make me look like a complete dunce. Through this thread I've had to explain myself more then once (on the same point), not by a decent question, but in defense.
Get over it.

And the funny thing is, we're not really disagreeing. But I guess you don't see that.

[EDIT]
WC, man I miss those sketches. "I'll take the rapists for 400" "That's Therapists"
[/EDIT]

Surely if that was clear in the first place then you wouldn't need to outline in such detail and "explictness" ? :razz:

A lot of injured feet today...

Seems I've created something for which I was not intendent on...

/me bows to master crono.

First off I'm no ones master, except maybe to my dog.

I must appologize about my last post. As my idea's still stand I think that my remarks came off a little harshly, even as I just read it I can't believe I wrote some of that in the way I wrote it, if that makes sense. I appologize to you, Jeff. I must say I can almost guarentee that you know more then I do on the overall harware performance issues, but I was merely going off of what I know. And into further researching I did, today actually, It looks as if the Athlon 64 FX is a nice addition to the x86 gaming world :smile:

The main addition being the pipeline and extrodanarily large L2 cache, seriously, 1 meg . . . . Jesus. I think that is my personal next upgrade, so I wont have to upgrade for some time as it would work with 32 and 64 applications (unlike the Itanium). By the way, I don't really support Itanium, I just think its a pretty cool way to go about getting around the bottleneck. However, it's a son of a bitch to program. But nothing close to IBM360 . . . That's a suicide machine.

Anyway, again, I apologize for my ahem behaivor. :smile:

Forceflow said:
TomsHardware.com overclocked a processor to 5 Ghz, by cooling with liquid nitrogen:

Wild Card said:
Yea I saw that, it was really cool.

scary_jeff said:
pun intended? :smile:

incert cheezy drum sound to worse pun ever here

Orpheus said:

Forceflow said:
TomsHardware.com overclocked a processor to 5 Ghz, by cooling with liquid nitrogen:

Wild Card said:
Yea I saw that, it was really cool.

scary_jeff said:
pun intended? :smile:

incert cheezy drum sound to worse pun ever here

Bah... Liquid nitrogen is wussey. only about 72 degrees Kelvin. go for the liquid helium. ~4 K, much cooler.

Yay! I'm not the only person who thinks up jokes that bad!

Would that even work? (The liquid Helium thing)... I thought semiconductors don't...er...semiconduct below a certain temperature. They just insulate. So unless you generate enough heat that it actually requires super-cooling, I think it won't work.

Normally a substances resistance decreases with decreasing temperature.

Heh, and turn your computer into a steaming pile of Bose-Einstein condensate or something and lose it up the walls. Good idea :wink:

scary_jeff said:
Normally a substances resistance decreases with decreasing temperature.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/band.html#c7
Not for semiconductors. Low temp= not enough energy for electrons to cross into the conduction band from the valence band. Thereby reducing it to an insulator.

hmm, yes this doesn't make sense then does it. If a semiconductor is an insulator at 0K (or has very high resistance at near 0K), how do computers work if cooled to these levels, given that their functionality is based on semiconductors conducting some of the time?

I asked some guy at a fair who was supplying liquid nitrogen coolers for multi-processor systems or something, and he said the temperatures generated are high enough to require this kind of cooling. Still, it's pretty surprising :/ Maybe someone else has more authentic info?

Orpheus said:

Forceflow said:
TomsHardware.com overclocked a processor to 5 Ghz, by cooling with liquid nitrogen:

Wild Card said:
Yea I saw that, it was really cool.

scary_jeff said:
pun intended? :smile:

incert cheezy drum sound to worse pun ever here

damnit now I get it Wow Im slow.

Wild Card said:

Orpheus said:

Forceflow said:
TomsHardware.com overclocked a processor to 5 Ghz, by cooling with liquid nitrogen:

Wild Card said:
Yea I saw that, it was really cool.

scary_jeff said:
pun intended? :smile:

incert cheezy drum sound to worse pun ever here

damnit now I get it Wow Im slow.

I don't

liquid nitro is cold as f**k. Hense when I said cool, jeff commented. I meant cool as in... well... cool. But Jeff decided to take it as cool = cold.

I doubt even liquid helium would be cold enough to stop conduction in most semi conductors, and it's certainly not cold enough for bose-einstein condensates. think mili kelvins there.

Semi conductors depend on a small energy gap between the valence and conduction bands typicalybetween 2 and 0.5 eV. Think of these as two seperate energy levels which electrons can occupy. Applying a small voltage to the material overcomes this gap and promotes electrons to the conduction band allowing electricity to flow. If the thermal energy was high enough to to promote the electrons without an applied voltage, then the material would be a conductor, not a semi conductor. You can calculate the thermal energy by the furmula E=kT where k is boltzmans constant and T is the temperature in kelvins. Hence you can find for yourself that at room temperature tha magnitude of thermal energy is only 0.026 eV, Hence thermal energy is NOT required for semiconduction.

Resistivity decreases with decreasing temperature due to the decreasing entropy of the system. Basicly this means, that if the atoms in the crystal are vibrateing less electrons are less likely to collide with them.

Conduction drops to zero at zero kelvin, yes. This is because all of the electrons are locked into the valence band. however I expect that by applying a voltage you are putting energy into the system and will heat it up just enough for cunduction. I'm not really sure what the actual behavior would be at 0 K, but that is a moot point as it is theoreticaly impossible to obtain absolute zero.

Edit Okay, I just read fraggard's link. I think that is all pretty reliable information, but it doesn't adress my question of how the applied potential comes into play. I stand by what I said.

Tracer Bullet said:
however I expect that by applying a voltage you are putting energy into the system and will heat it up just enough for cunduction. I'm not really sure what the actual behavior would be at 0 K, but that is a moot point as it is theoreticaly impossible to obtain absolute zero.

When you apply that voltage, any temperature increase might actually be cancelled out by that liquid He/N running through, wouldn't it? I doubt it'd ever be allowed to reach a high enough temperature for electrons to make the jump across the band-gap in the forbidden energy zone.

Anyway, my knowledge is somewhat sketchy on this, So I asked around a bit and it turns out that I might be right after all... Apparently, they try to maintain temperatures between -10 and +20 C. But I can't call this info very reliable. /me will find out more by tomorrow.

how the hell do you guys know all this s**t?

I'm a chemistry major with a minor in physics WC. I've spent four years learning about all this stuff, although my solid-state physics knowledge is somewhat spotty.

Tracer Bullet said:
I'm a chemistry major with a minor in physics WC. I've spent four years learning about all this stuff, although my solid-state physics knowledge is somewhat spotty.

Im in grade 12... :sad:

Wild Card said:
Im in grade 12... :sad:

We had Solid State theory in grades 11 and 12 actually. So some of my knowledge is from there. Otherwise largely from my first year at the university.

The last science class I took was SBC3C meanning grade 11 bio college. Cant take science classes.

I've been kind of pissed about the lack of a propper solid state calss at my school. the closest I've gotten is Inorganic Chemistry, and band theory was only really a very small section in that class. of course since it's just a natural extension of MO theory I have a pretty solid base for understanding the bits and pieces I do see. I am however quite disgusted that the physics department does not offer a calss in solid-state physics, particularly in this day and age!!

Anyway WC. I get my bachelors in just a few months, so don't worry if I know a bit more about some things :smile: .

I should certainly hope I would!

Tracer Bullet said:
I should certainly hope I would!

The day I know more than you guys is well, the day cows fly.

Don't think of it that way WC. I cannot begin to coprehend how much I have learned in my time at the University. It's like you go wandering through school for the first 20 years of your life before you reach true understanding of anything. even the first two years at University are very turbid. Everery thing seems disconnected and not very usefull, but at some point you reach a "moment". You suddenly see how everything fits into a larger picture, and be able to understand things you never imagined being able to wrap you mind around.

This happend for me in the middle of my Junior year here. it's an increidble feeling.

The best feeling I've had was my first solo this summer. Sadly though, 2 idiot CI instructors trashed it since

Ok, I bought the AMD Athlon 2500+ and a second stick of Crucial 256mb DDR 2700. Question, lol. When putting a new CPU, do I need to reformat? Cause I would think so, but nowhere does it mention it.

I highly doubt you need to reformat. However, I know very little about building computers.

Gave you a hefty answer in a pm, wc. Just kidding it's not that long.

Tracer, where are you graduating from?
My problem with most of the Physics, I don't have to take much of it, is with the way they introduce most of the subjects. It's kind of like, you sit there and learn it, in a terrible fasion (through work, not the -U kind though.) When they could have told you percicly what to use and when and why. In a very straight forward manner, I would understand, more so, of what I was actually doing. f**king PCC. lol Anyway.

I know the feeling you're describing. It started happening for me when I took my second Computer Architecture class. It was just kind of like "OH!" then connect whatever dots/light bulbs you'd like form there :smile:

Pacific University. Out in Forest Grove.

It sounds like you are suffering through a "workshop" physics class. A class where there is no lecture and you are suposed to muddle through the lab doing stupid experiments that teach you absolutly nothing.

Pacific uses the same format for gerneral physics. it is a horrible educational format, it makes it simply impossible to cover a reasonable ammount of material. the classes are just a painfull waste of time! Fortunatly the upper division physics classes are much better, and the Chemistry department is absolutly fantastic!

No, there's a lecture, a four hour one actually. Its just the way the book is set up. And the instructor, as cool and nice of a guy he is, just restates whats in the book. Do you see the infiite loop? (sorry, I had a Computer Science final today) On that note, I had an interesting conversation with a class-mate about how a CS student is essencially the human equivilent to the program stack lol.

I really know nothing of CS.

When I transfered from PCC I was undecided as to whether I wanted to major in Chemistry or CS. Well, they assigned my a chemistry professor as my advisor, so... I'm a chem major and have never had a single CS class. I think it was a good "decision" though. honestly I'm quite unimpressed by most of the other departments at this school.

You won't acheive anything by reinstalling windows just because you bought new memory and CPU. You don't gain much if it was a completely new PC apart from the hard drive.

That's assuming you have windows 2k/xp though. 9x and me are a lot less tolerant of things like that.