US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672901.stm

Shocking, disgusting.. etc... One thing is for certain, this isn't going to do the US admin or the US armys public image any favours at all, when the troops are seen to be out of control and torturing Iraqis, just as Saddam did before :sad:

The question is how do these get overlooked? And how much can you blame it on unprofessional recruits being attracted by the misleading messages of Bush - ie, Iraq was in league with Al Qaeda - could have possibly attracted those with less self control and intelligence to fight and "exact their revenge" upon "terrorists".

Either way this is just another calamity thats going to inflame the situation between Arab nations and the West. Laced with the typical irony, hypocracy and general illegalness that dogs the Bush administration, hopefully it will spur other countries on to speak out against the USA without fear of repercussion..

Any thoughts on this new "development"?

[ed- this is not an attack on american citizens. it is aimed at the army, the government and the soldiers who carried out these deeds. please note also im not saying UK soldiers are squeeky clean or anything either, im commenting on this particular story. thank you :razz: ]

I'm not sure, I have mixed feelings about this. I guess you can understand why they were doing it- these soliders will have had colleagues killed and much worse (remember the "bridge" incident? I didn't see any mass, widespread condemnation for that), they probably arrested these guys for trying to/succeeding in killing more soliders for all we know... But it's still barbaric and wrong, and I hope these people are locked up for a long time if this is true. However, I think any condemnation of the US military/government for this is just stupid and shortsighted. The whole situation is going to pot, and although it's the US's fault initially, the international community (especially the Arab world) has a responsibility to do more to help Iraqis in general, which they're not doing...

And on the one hand, I'm glad there is widespread condemnation and disgust about this, when to be fair there has been far worse committed by Iraqis (and shown on Arabic TV)

goes back to being kerfuddled about maths, slides further into Atheism

Out of thousands of soldiers in the middle east, less than 20 get to 'speak' for all of them. This is a horrible thing to have happening, but this isn't the first time US troops (or troops from any other nation) have acted with inhuman actions in crossing the line on what is acceptable conduct with prisoners - which, again, this isn't.

Currently there are 6 people being indicted, according to the article. I agree that this is horrible to have happened, but it does not in any way represent US or military policy in the region.

Obviously emotions will run high in war, and I expect there are plenty more incidents of this, amongst the UK ranks as well. The command could have done more to secure people against these abuses, and I'd wager a lot of the hate is based on a basic misunderstanding of the Iraqis they were fighting.

Also you have to take into account that Arab governments are reluctant to cooperate with the US, as they fear insurgents and similar attacking them.. insurgents fuelled by religious hatred and US foreign policy. I agree though that more could be done by other countries to levy the situation, particuarly people like France (who need to repair themselves after the UN Oil For Food scandal) and Russia also....

The problem is both of the sides are so extremely polarised to each other, we are just seeing a rehash of the US/USSR neo-colonization style movements in the Middle East... why don't people learn from history!?

7 actually KFS (:P), and like I said - I accept and understand these things can and will happen with all nations, but this is going to do little to remedy a situation when the US army/admin are portraying themselves as the bringers of freedom from torture and human rights abuses...

With situations like this, it pays to have extra checks and policing over the soldiers. Also I hardly say the US military is almost blameless for wrongdoing in Iraq, Fallujah and Najaf spring to mind - bombing of Mosques and all that ^_^

Although we know about how good they are at aiming bombs (c.f. Chinese embassies), I doubt they'd attack Mosques if militants weren't obviously hiding inside, given the sensitivity...

Folks I was once an american solider and I seen some nasty action in my time. While I do not agree with this I still support my country and its soliders. I have more than a few close friends right there close to where the bridge incident happened. I was worried until I found out it was not them. Combat does strange things to you that most people would never be able to imagine. You see and do things you will regret for the rest of your life. As for this occurence the responsible parties should be punished. Does anyone rember 9/11 the wtc bombing.

Leperous said:
Although we know about how good they are at aiming bombs (c.f. Chinese embassies), I doubt they'd attack Mosques if militants weren't obviously hiding inside, given the sensitivity...

That's just it though - i'm the first to admit that the first casualty of war is definately the truth, but by all accounts they use excessive force far too much - the mosque incident was 1, maybe a couple of militants - so they unload with 2x 500lb bombs and laser guided missiles?

All i'm saying is that the US/UK administration and the US army should think about the repercussions of their approach toward policing the country, and particuarly their own forces.

Well, can't blame them for getting bored.

/me gets lynched

One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."
He said he did not see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

Umm, call it a hunch, but I haven't read the Geneva Convention either, but I am sure genital electrocution is against it. Call it a hunch.

I didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention so I didn't know it was wrong to torture people and put them through agony.

great excuse! kinda like saying.. I didnt read your countrys laws so I didnt know it was wrong for me to take someone else's car...

I don't see what the big deal is. Bad things happen in war/occupation, and I'm certain the US Army has its problems like everyone else. It would be foolish to think otherwise. Still, 7 people being accused of torture is huge news? What next, are we going to have front page articles whenever a stray bullet hits a civilian? This would be more disturbing if it was proven to be widespread or 'officially' sanctioned.

The point is they (the US army) have already screamed bloody murder themselves over the treatment of prisoners by the Iraqis, yet they don't have the foresight to plan any kind of system to limit battlefield abuses and "safe" incarceration for their prisoners (who they should have known they were going to catch).

For a fairly dubious war in terms of legal grounding, you would have thought that the US army/admin teams for Iraq would have made sure everything ran smoothly after the takeover. And yes, I accept you can't account for what will happen in a war, but their whole policy on rebuilding Iraq is deeply flawed (I can name other examples if people want to accuse me of being a raging lefty with an agenda against the US :razz: ) with a horrible bias for western businesses :sad:

I don't think the US administration did much planning at all for an occupation. They expected that most of the Iraqi army would switch sides and that there would be countrywide revolts against Hussein once the invasion started. They expected a quick victory like in Afghanistan where the people joined the US in the war and fully supported their actions. The real focus on rebuilding and democratizating Iraq didn't happen until the WMD search proved fruitless and the US was stuck with control of the country.

contingency plans...

oh well, not a lot we can do about it now - apart from learn a few lessons and try and get the situation remedied asap, I guess.

This makes me sick!

yep; too bad Klaus was not a prisoner...

Interesting followup to the UK version:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3677311.stm

i don't have time to read all this crap, but i would like to point out, i have at least one UK friend, who actually fought over there, and he mentions his being appalled at HIS COUNTRIES abuses of the locals..

this is by no means a USA only incident.. he states he is very shocked to see his own countrymen abusing the locals..

anywho's, i thought it noteworthy to point out, the atrocities are not country generalized..

i think, that if you cannot dig deeply enough to find any british/UK atrocities (which obviously exist as well), that you should not post any american ones.. :rolleyes:

/my 2 cents

its all rubbish tbh, hes not beaten its all been faked. why would pictures have been taken if it were real ffs? + orph, all this has been on the tv, its hardly being dug up.

Orpheus said:
i think, that if you cannot dig deeply enough to find any british/UK atrocities (which obviously exist as well), that you should not post any american ones.. :rolleyes:

Shut up. We were talking about the worldwide-headline-news, not bashing America.

Interesting followup to the UK version:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3677311.stm

you cannot dig deeply enough to find any british/UK atrocities

Erm?

Orph, go re-read the title of the thread. My US comments are aimed at the US planning of the war, they planned and directed it. Their are UK photos (from the most dubious sources...).

Knee jerk reactions are not your friend.

Leperous said:

Orpheus said:
i think, that if you cannot dig deeply enough to find any british/UK atrocities (which obviously exist as well), that you should not post any american ones.. :rolleyes:

Shut up. We were talking about the worldwide-headline-news, not bashing America.

glares at lep

watch your mouth..!!

you have never heard me say anything about bashing americans, nor i doubt will you.

the day i need to shut up, cause some mouthy kids says so will be a sad day indeed TBH.

now, as i said, i have a friend who was f**king there, its hardly a localized issue, but i do feel it is exceedingly inflammatory to pose it as such..

lep, either stay neutral, or you may shut up and show me how its done :rolleyes:

that was totally, uncalled for.. and in all honesty, i would accept someones word whom i trust, and was there over any news feed.

mumbles

one of these days, you will go to far.

I'll remember you said that the next time you call me a prick, then

this is a very small excerpt from a very private email i received, i don't think its betraying any confidences, cause its nothing personal.. and considering only one person here prolly knows whom its from anyways, the quote is basically anonymous.

After Iraq, some of the lads didn't even care that they'd taken lives, not even those of the the conscripts or civilians. If they had a shred of remorse, they concealed it well. I don't ever want to have such callous disregard for the loss of human life. Even during peacekeeping, an unprofessional few demonstrated no respect toward the locals. I know I'm not the same as these people but I live with them, socialize with them and work with them. I'm afraid it's only a matter of time before my own set of values and standards begin to fall.

the only reason i quoted this at all, is because the person whom sent me this letter, is not the same person who went to war.. he sounded so much like you c**ky kids around here, it was basically stereotypical, now... he is different.

i can only attribute it to what he saw, or did, and honestly i feel he may someday need to come to terms with those visions.. but bottom-line, he has told me things about iraq, and frankly, few of the tales compare to what you guys keep posting for the rest of us to read..

i think, i will take his word for it, and let the rest of you keep reading the tripe..

i think if something can transform this c**ky kid into the person who wrote what you just read... its relevant..

Orph, I fail to see how that is relevant to what this debate was about, and youre only making yourself look worse by showing your prejudice against so called "c**ky kids"...

:sad:

You're digging a big hole for yourself, and i'm afraid there's no ladder out of it.

1) We discuss the alleged mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, discussion dies down

2) I post a news item relating to a similar incident supposedly carried out by British forces, in which the article points out that it is likely to be fake.

3) Orph comes in and says "if you cannot dig deeply enough to find any british/UK atrocities (which obviously exist as well), that you should not post any american ones"

3) I say, "Shut up. We were talking about the worldwide-headline-news, not bashing America."

4) You retort with "watch your mouth..!!" and have a go.

5) I point out you've called me a prick before in the past.

6) You retort by calling us "c**ky kids".

/wonders who is derailing the thread

you also, act as if its the first time i erred..

sadly, if the title had said "coalition prisoner abuse in iraq" the subject might have been neutral..

call it anyway you wish, but the topic is blatantly biased.. i still say it is, and no ladder or holes will alter that viewpoint.

next time.. begin your topic heading, less focused, generalize the damned thing for christ sakes.

am i so unbiased that only i can see it was a dig?

and lep, i don't need your counting skills demonstrated, its a sure sign, of a c**ky f**king kid :sad:

now.. if you wanna discus it as adults, i am game... but gwil and lep.. you proved my point, you failed miserably to disprove it.. even IF my point was irrelevant to the topic, you still proved i was right about your age. you can be 30 or 40 and still think like a c**ky kid :rolleyes: .. shoot you guys think i am childish daily.. whats the diff?

if this subject is truly and unbiasedly about abused iraqis.. so be it.. but i don't see it as such, nor does it necessarily have to be so.

the topic.. was derailed when a member was specifically told to "SHUT UP" .. till then, it was typical snarkpit idle forum banter.. if you don't see it as such.. so what..

for the record, there is no such thing as being prejudiced against c**ky kids... its not as if its a born afliction. its a state of mind, or mindset... actually i guess prejudiced is accutrate enuff, in a VERY BROAD sense of the word :rolleyes: .. its about as accurate as saying, you are prejudiced against people, who dislike c**ky kids.. yeah it would take a very long ladder to reach that one.. :sad:

I just don't see how he can generalise it when he started the thread about a particular news story! If he generalised it, it wouldnt have been about the news story Lep wanted to discuss. And he didn't say 'coalition' instead of 'US/coalition', because at the time he posted it, only news of the US version was available. The 'UK version' only came out yesterday... Why is Lep wrong for wanting to talk aobut this particular issue? It seems to me that he is only wrong because this particular issue concerns american troops. If it had been australians in the same situation, I somehow don't think you would have come in with the same arguement Orph.

next time.. begin your topic heading, less focused, generalize the damned thing for christ sakes.

am i so unbiased that only i can see it was a dig?

...because it actually was US forces involved?

I suppose "some guys do bad things to some other guys in some country" would have been more generalized, but then no one would have a clue what the hell anyone was talking about.

Quote (Thread Title)

"<A name=top>US/Coalition prisoner abuse in Iraq</A>" - posted before UK soldiers were allegedly shown undertaking the same acts.

Quote - Gwil

"Either way this is just another calamity thats going to inflame the situation between Arab nations and the West. Laced with the typical irony, hypocracy and general illegalness that dogs the Bush administration, hopefully it will spur other countries on to speak out against the USA without fear of repercussion.."

[ed- this is not an attack on american citizens. it is aimed at the army, the government and the soldiers who carried out these deeds. please note also im not saying UK soldiers are squeeky clean or anything either, im commenting on this particular story. thank you :razz: ]

Quote - Gwil

I agree though that more could be done by other countries to levy the situation, particuarly people like France (who need to repair themselves after the UN Oil For Food scandal) and Russia also....

Quote - Gwil

All i'm saying is that the US/UK administration and the US army should think about the repercussions of their approach toward policing the country, and particuarly their own forces.

Quote - Gwil

And yes, I accept you can't account for what will happen in a war, but their whole policy on rebuilding Iraq is deeply flawed (I can name other examples if people want to accuse me of being a raging lefty with an agenda against the US :razz: ) with a horrible bias for western businesses

Quote - Yak [color=red]Fig[/color]hter (hint)

I don't think the US administration did much planning at all for an occupation.

I shall say no more on the issue, I think these quotes highlight the relevant points perfectly well.

(and if anyone DARES to try and point out my leaning toward arguing the USA points there I point them to the fact this is a thread based on a story about American soldiers, in the american army in an american led war. Who the f**k am I supposed to talk about? Cuba?)

Leperous said:
However, I think any condemnation of the US military/government for this is just stupid and shortsighted.

Some people, eh. :rolleyes: Anyway!

Not really, who was in charge of setting up the internment schemes in their region? ^_^

These soldiers are the effect, the people who are running the show above are the cause.

Also I find it terribly sad people under the age of x cannot express opinions, thoughts or feelings on issues, national and international for fear of being labelled c**ky, or a rebel.. or similar. Alienate the future generations and your dredge up the past ^_^

Fair point- it would have made sense to bring in some prison experts on the same boat as oil experts

KungFuSquirrel said:

next time.. begin your topic heading, less focused, generalize the damned thing for christ sakes.

am i so unbiased that only i can see it was a dig?

...because it actually was US forces involved?

I suppose "some guys do bad things to some other guys in some country" would have been more generalized, but then no one would have a clue what the hell anyone was talking about.

listen to what you just said.. jeez andrew..

if someone had said "building fire set by arsonist" it would have been the same as "gay arsonist sets building on fire???"

and, please don't act as if i would have been suddenly correct, if i had left out the "c**kY" statement either... most of you know whom, or what i am talking about.. the fact is, many of you are c**ky, its not a damned crime, its just exceedingly annoying is all.

the point is, things happen, its not localized to US of UK, or any other country, so why does the heading have to lead it that direction?

just once i would love to see either an unbiased post topic, or one that begins with someone researching a UK incident..

i realize, honest i do that the kids of the UK must think this is a topic worthy of discussing, but even my unbiased patience has its limits..

call me what you like, i could care less.. as i said, i didn't read nothing past the title, and after i saw the biased nature of it, the content became moot.. even if every single piece of it was 100% true, i turned a blind eye, because it was wrong to post it in such a light.

ask yourselves, how can someone as un-politically minded as i am care otherwise??? post government atrocities till you get blisters on your damned fingers i don't care, but even my broad nature can see the topic was pointedly US bashing.. even if its not, it says it is.

Who do you think bought a bloody UK incident into this thread?! Do you follow the news at all? Why don't you go berate CNN et al for bringing this to our attention and being so un-American, or are we at fault for discussing it?

Orpheus i'd happily post topics on many issues - the IMF, world bank, zimbabwe, north korea, nafta, rwanda, the UN, changing roles of nato etc etc.. they have limited discussion potential though.

im afraid when the country is as big as the united states, its actions have repercussions all over the world, and more or less everyone will have an opinion on a large USA related issue... view it as biased if you like, im biased against illegality, war, violence and social injustice (and then some). Not America as a country or as a representation of its citizens.. when referring to the US/USA (being an ex-history student) usually (99.9% of the time) means US Government/Administration/Army.

sighs

look guys, my point was not to prove or disprove the threads contents.

it was to attempt to stall anyone bashing only.. the topic is very biased, no matter how you rationalize it otherwise.

i know, you all are very much more informed than i care to be, thats OK.. you are supposed to be.

but damn, i get so tired of the fights around here, and any time a UK resident, post a topic beginning with US, it leads down a path i care not to read.

as i said, this war changed a kid, just like most of you here.. i worry for him because of it.. but thats another story, and a private one.

just please, stop posting nationalities into the topic header.. it can never lead to rational debates :sad:

it was an international news story about american troops... there is pretty much no other way of labelling it - and note I did say coalition as well. I hate the UK government, PM and involvement in this war a whole lot more than I hate your countries :razz: trust me :wink:

post government atrocities till you get blisters on your damned fingers i don't care, but even my broad nature can see the topic was pointedly US bashing.. even if its not, it says it is.

It's CURRENT EVENTS. Jesus christ. It's not just something that the kids in the UK think is worth discussing, this is going to have direct negative consequences on our nation. It doesn't matter who else has done what other atrocities, because in the scope of this discussion, we're talking about United States troops committing these acts under the flag of peace and democracy. I think that's an issue well worth discussing. You can't just waltz in saying "Hey, the UK did a bunch of bad stuff too!" - that's nice, I'm sure we can dig up all kinds of dirt from the imperialist era, but that's not relevant to this discussion of a single event!

look, i care about you 2 as much as is possible to do so in an internet relationship.. but you almost always assume that when i use terms such as c**ky, thats meant derogatorily, when its just a word to me..

i would assume that it must stem from a measure of guilt on your part, cause when you call me childish, or close minded, it just rolls off me like water on a duck.. there is no real way i can take it as wrong, its true enough.

face it, you all are very damned c**ky, you have so little real world experiences to draw upon.. but in all fairness, if we happen to be compatriots in 5 more years, and if you are honest enough to look back on yourselves now, and NOT call yourselves c**ky.. i will respect that decision at face value.

being on the wrong side of a debate, never stopped me before, why should today be different?

as i said, i care about you both, but times like this... stress that feeling to its limits.. the fact that i remain, speaks best in your favor..

/me tired.. i will go away now.. all this mushy stuff.. well you know :smile:

I think the fact that such a thing has happened is so sickening, that , to me, "who did it" is a complete non-issue. It should never have happened. I don't see any reason to come screaming in with all your flags waving in saying "j00 did It TOO!!!".

fraggard said:
"j00 did It TOO!!!".

another series valid posts wasted :sad:

you win, thats what i said, that was my whole point for being an asshole..

fraggard said:
I think the fact that such a thing has happened is so sickening, that , to me, "who did it" is a complete non-issue. It should never have happened. I don't see any reason to come screaming in with all your flags waving in saying "j00 did It TOO!!!".

It would be interesting to see what you'd do in the same situation though, to someone who had planted a car bomb and killed fellow soliders, civilians and children. Or if it was your friend who had been killed and dragged through the streets. Although it's wrong, it can hardly be called sickening when you compare it to everything else that's going on...

I don't really understand your point Orph. This is what happened (allegedly), so it's obviously not the fault of anybody here. Wouldn't it be worse if people didn't discuss it? I'm sorry I'm just having trouble finding any bias in this thread. Its not like anyone said "this is what americans do; all americans must be scumbags."

JFry said:
I don't really understand your point Orph. This is what happened (allegedly), so it's obviously not the fault of anybody here. Wouldn't it be worse if people didn't discuss it? I'm sorry I'm just having trouble finding any bias in this thread. Its not like anyone said "this is what americans do; all americans must be scumbags."

my being able to make a point in an way comprehensible has been a long time blight on my interaction around here.

my point was not to correct, place blame, or make excuses for the american/coalition troops.

it was to say simply, that i would have read this whole thread, had the topic simply stated "iraqi's being abused?" or "Iraqi's do the really deserve abuse?"

the point? this site has more school members than any i have ever visited, but sometimes you still need to realize that there are multiple tactful ways to comment..

you guys never hesitate to point out my blunders such as "PRICK,PISSANT, OR c**kY" but if i point out the same sort of insensitivity in you.. i am being prejudiced.

thats a double standard, i have a hard time with..

Basically, the only issue Orph has is the use of 'US' in the thread title...

Fair enough, but appreciate that pretty much every newspaper/news website/news channel will have specifically talked about US troops doing this. It may or may not be unfair that this particular story has got so much attention, but you must accept that it has had a lot of it, and in posting a thread about this specific thing with US troops, Lep has nothing worse than any of the rest of the worlds media (not that this makes it right). In my opinion he did a lot better, giving a blanced opinion on this one particular incident. The aim was to talk about the implications of this single event, not bad events in general, and so the thread title seems just fine to me.

I say again, if it had been the exact same incident and thread, but with 'US' replaced with 'australian', I really don't think you would have objected to it Orph.

scary_jeff said:
I say again, if it had been the exact same incident and thread, but with 'US' replaced with 'australian', I really don't think you would have objected to it Orph.

funny, in all this time, you would still think that.. sad really.

think about how i truly act, you and i fought like girls forever once upon a time, but in the heat of it all, if someone treated you badly in my name, i would defend you on principal.. its not in my nature to kick someone when they are down.

as with this thread, i honestly feel everyone who read it, would have read it just the same, without the country added.. i also contend that there is a good chance i would have commented on the australia as well, but pose this theory as well... NO ONE would have told me to shut up if i had made a comment about australia.. my comment would have been heeded, or ignored outright...

since snarkpit does from time to time, have arguments/debates/flames over US bashing, it brought my comment to center stage, instead of remaining on the edge of notice.

i honestly feel, it went south because i said something, but i do not believe i caused it to occur, the sentiment was firmly in place before this topic got posted.

i hope that made sense jeff, cause thats my entire take on how this thread unfolded.. at least from my 1st reply to now.

i still believe, the US portion could have been omitted, and the audience would have remained the same..

as i said, i am not trying to debate,change or argue the issue, just its deliver system..

Leperous said:
It would be interesting to see what you'd do in the same situation though, to someone who had planted a car bomb and killed fellow soliders, civilians and children. Or if it was your friend who had been killed and dragged through the streets. Although it's wrong, it can hardly be called sickening when you compare it to everything else that's going on...

Depends on what you mean by "you" actually. As a country, we would try and resolve the issue like we've been doing all these years. Terrorism might be new over there but we've lived with it for quite some time now. I suppose we've realised that use of armed force only makes it worse for the innocents :sad: .

As an individual, I have no clue what I would do (hopefully, I'll never find out) But I'm pretty sure it won't be anything like this.