Thanto

G.Ballblue said:
A_S, the map so far looks good.... But...

I'm a little worried. Must of the maps that come out of the snarkpit appear to graphic show maps (No offense to anyone! really!). I kinda feel that your average HL player isn't going to be TO concerened with graphics -- since most them are absolutely fine with playing the all time 1 texture map "kill box" :biggrin:

Dedicated server runners out there are paying about 52 $ a month to run their public server. So naturally, they don't want to waste any money -- they are going to try and cram as many players into one map. So, they aren't going to want a small map.

From my playing experience as an HL player (not mapper), I tend to want nice big fat maps --- they have more replay value, they are funner, and there is generally more in-genious ways to get lost and explore the map :biggrin: So, when I play a small map, even though it graphically is brilliant, I play for 30 seconds, in the time walking the entire map, then setting it calmly aside in my maps folder to never play it again.

I think everyone here needs to not be so picky about each graphical flaw, and "how it doesn't look like an UT map". Focus more on a map that is simply fun to play, and won't be used up in 30 seconds. Design the maps as if they were single player maps -- naturally, you want all the map you can get into your map.

Remember: Valve releases God awful looking maps every patch, and cs and HL players just eat them right up. Probably because they're fun.

Just my /2 dollars...

Yippie Ki Yay!

Good points, but there is no excuse to have graphical flaws in your map, and personally I am grateful when people point out things I've missed. If you're going to spend the time to make a great map gameplay-wise, don't bring it down by f**king up the architecture and texturing.

I'd like to say I agreed with you, as I once held such beliefs, putting gameplay first and looks later. However, my experience with the HL community has taught me a few things that caused me to sadly reject gameplay as number one. Firstly, there's the prevalence of killbox maps, which shows that players are stupid and that maps with no gameplay or graphics whatsoever can succeed. The majority of HL players want mindless slaughter with no strategy or thought behind it. That's not gameplay. Secondly, back when map review sites actually existed many reviewers masturbated all over 'good looking' maps lauding them as great. To me these maps had very little gameplay and just plain sucked. They were looks over substance. I know few agree with me, but I feel that Manson's maps looked good but played like s**t, yet many servers ran his maps. Obviously at this time if you wanted your map to be played it had to look damn good to get the glowing reviews from these sites. Sadly, these two things taught me that if you wanted people to play your maps it really had nothing to do with gameplay.

Honest to God, when I released Torque I couldn't understand how it didn't get LOTW or awesome marks from review sites. It had the exact gameplay I wanted. I playtested the thing with PhineasBot for hours. I had great mappers from the DRS clan giving me advice about it. It was well received at a LMC playtest. But it didn't have the graphics to back up the gameplay. I wasted a great layout and design by not working on texture choices, lighting, and architecture, and I regretted it, as I wanted other people to play my map and have fun in the process.

Architecture, lighting, and atmosphere has a semi-direct effect on how players view and move through the map. For example, if you light 1 door and leave another door in the shadows, the lighted door will naturally recieve more use. The way you align textures and build your architecture also helps to guide the player around - they're like little puppets that you can control, and they don't even know it! :smile:

But, yeah, I would want to play a map that was easy on the eyes. It really doesn't hurt, is all I'm saying. Plus, adding detail and refining the style/look is the fun part for me.

Oh, and I disagree - I think a lot of the Valve maps are gorgeous (dod_avalanche, de_piranesi, etc.) and play pretty well to boot.

piranesi is a valve map? I always enjoyed that one.

uh, back to Thanto... :biggrin:

Slightly updated screenshots. Just posting to show it's still being worked on
really. Hopefully I'll have a version uploaded in a few days. :smile:

I've managed to keep within my 1200 r limit, so I'm pleased with that.

I'll say this A_S: This is probably the best looking map I've seen.

whispers

Hope you do well in the competition :biggrin:

Yay or nay?

Looks cool to me, though perhaps too overall dark? Where does this fit in the layout of things?

It's a new area above the skylight room. The edge of the skylight is in the left corner. I'll add some more lights. Cheers. :smile:

Yes more lights would be real nice.... not to much to comment on here. Maybe add some stuff to the tops of the buildsing (atenna's, radio. satellite.. etc)

Kinda yay- I suggest having a different texture on those walls in the front (bottom) of the picture, and some detail e.g. dustbins, fuse boxes etc. around outside to make things more interesting.

Managed to completely forget about adding more lighting even after I experimented with adding more streetlights. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, thanks for the input guys. :smile:

Don't like this new section much... Should just have left the map as a 4 player mini map, or make this new bit fit in with the rest of the map!

It isn't so bad in game really. The style is different but I've used
the same textures so it doesn't feel so out of place. I'll see what I
can do though. :smile:

I think the new bit looks fantastic, although it seems that the street lights oshould cast more light.

looks like a good map bud, your lucky that you got a vist from the great Reno. I hope to get some new picks from xenophobia up. My problem is that I dont know were to store my pics on the web so that I can link them to this site. Do you guys have a free hosting site or something? if so which ones are better?

P.S good luck on the map :smile:

I think it looks too dark. Plus you also have to consider that the map
is multiplayer, so people won't really like fumbling around in the dark
or campers hiding pretty much everywhere. At the moment it also looks a
bit odd with the roof-lights seemingly brighter than the street lights,
when it should probably be the other way around. Also suggest thinking
about lighting more "broadly" - point-lighting is very versatile for
this. Would recommend against throwing texture lights "everywhere", as
it will kind of make the scene too busy. Some nice, big, wide
spotlights focusing on the doors would look particularly nice, I think.
Looks good though. :smile:

half-dude said:
looks like a good map bud, your lucky that you got a vist from the great Reno. I hope to get some new picks from xenophobia up. My problem is that I dont know were to store my pics on the web so that I can link them to this site. Do you guys have a free hosting site or something? if so which ones are better?

P.S good luck on the map :smile:

You can upload pics onto your "pit"... CONTROL PANEL > HOMEPAGE

If you don't want to try that, http://www.photobucket.com is what I use for pictures in my LiveJournal.

I think half-dude may be too late to have got a pit for himself, Lep only gave them out for a while.

I agree with CJ here, it looks like there are plenty of light fixtures already, you just need them to emit more light. The streetlights are prime candidates for some spotlighting I reckon.

half-dude: www.photobucket.com is very good

Yeah, my monitor shows dark maps pretty well, and I have trouble really seeing what this map is...from what I can see it's nice, but takes a lot of strain to really figure out what is what.

Nearly done now. The layout is complete, so it's just tweaking and small bits and pieces. Thank f**k. :biggrin:

http://aliensniper.tripod.com/thanto_b2.zip

I've upped the lighting by a small amount, is it still to dark? The
screenshots seem to make look darker than it is. Thanks for all the
comments/tips. :smile:

That looks freakin' beautiful, outside of the metal trim under the railings... but I never like that texture in any map. The lighting suits the brick very well, and it is very spankworthy.

I can't get the file, even by copying and pasting into a new browser window :sad:

Its looking alright but this map is just getting more and more unbalanced theme wise. You have a hi-tech looking trim in an urban area. But the rest of your map isnt urban looking. It appears to HLDM style. Im really confused about the map. I think im going to have to look at it in game to comment on it more.

Could someone please offer some hosting before I go crazy? :sad:

It's too big for my pit so instead of annoying anyone I went straight
to geocities. Great. I uploaded the map, but then I couldn't access it.
I gave up on that after a bit and tried tripod. After uploading it for
the fifth time it finally worked. I went to bed. Now I'm greeted with
the message:

'Please

Note:
You are no longer an authorized member of Tripod. You have been removed
because your web site violated our Terms of Service or you chose to
self-delete.
For more information, click here.'



Grr.

About the lack of a dominant theme. That's supposed to be part of it's
charm. I will say it's probably somewhat more cohesive than the
screenshots show, but for better or worse it isn't supposed to make sense. :smile:

(edit}http://homepage.eircom.net/%7Ekevinkell/thanto_b2.zip

Unfortunately, you can't null the brush underneath these func_wall stairs if you want models to have lighting.



If you're going to allow people to gauss up here, I'd think it be neat to give them a little something for doing it.



I found a texture error.





For both these areas I'd suggest either removing the null texturing or clipping them off.

Everything looks pretty good. Nice to see this getting finished!

Thanks Yak. :smile:

Didn't even notice that with the stairs. Good thing you pointed it out.

I haven't clipped anything off yet, as I haven't really decided how much of the map I want to be accessible.

Updated the screenshots, but there isn't much new. The layout is
completely finished, and it seems to flow well enough for a first map.
:wink: I just have some tweaking detailing and optimising to do and then
it's off to Lep. The r_speeds mysteriously dropped by about 85 after
the last compile, reducing the highest polycount to 1204, just above my
intended limit. Delighted with that. :smile:

This map is awesome lookin I would like to test it out if I could Please. I like what you have done with the detail. But it is hard to judge without playing the map.

Just looking at those shots again, I love how this has turned out. Before I was thinking generic (though damn sexy) industrial setting, but with Cassius' textures and your brushwork development, its turned very much into a neo-tokyo style city street. I know that sounds daft, given that neo-tokyo type places have normally a depressing, technology-driven look, but if you replace the technology with heavy industrial building materials, this is how it would look :biggrin:

You still ought to change the indents on the inner pillars with the rusty support bits, as the rusty bit looks crap. I think you'd be better off visually if you made the pillars straight like you have elsewhere, and it would also reduce your w_poly a bit.

Well your rusty face looks crap! runs away hurt

Consider them removed. :smile:

This map is awesome lookin I would like to test it out if I
could Please. I like what you have done with the detail. But it is hard
to judge without playing the map.

Download link up now. I'm not really happy with the way the buildings meet the sky. Some places just look flat and boring.

1. This roofline needs height variation, perhaps a second floor to this grey building? Not necessarily mimmicking its current shape however.



2. If you aren't going to let people up there, then perhaps put a hidden red light behind the vent, would look cool if there was red light behind it but seeing the source would look silly, as it would seem pointless to have it there.



3. Maybe have a door here, in the same sort of place as the vent is on the other side.



4. In my opinion, there isn't much reason to null all the roof faces out here. When on ground level, these will be facing AWAY from the player, and so will not be rendered even with textures. When in the air, I think it would be worth having the 20 or so w_poly it would probably add in order to stop the HOM's and rendering of underlying faces. Would mean screenshots from up here could look impressive and proper rather than unexpected and "unallowed". Also, I think these lamp posts should cast light_spots to provide pools of light on the ground, one from each of the two lamps on each post. Nothing drastic, and not pointing right down but each slightly angled away from the post.



5. Nice little red highlighting, but perhaps you could use a couple more along under this ridge?



6. I like what you've done with this pool, but perhaps that metal trim looks out of place on it?



7. Nice detailing but perhaps badly textured? The light surface material looks wrong against the rusty metal sides. May look better by just changing the inner supported part's surface to a rustier metal? It then might clash with the rest of the ceiling but just a thought.



8. May be cool to have another pool down here to prevent fall damage?



9. Maybe put a clip brush over this door indent, it doesnt provide any benefits being able to hug the door but could get people snagged.



10. Maybe change the interior wall texture of these planters to match the exterior texture?



11. I think this might look better with a trim on both sides.

All in all, the improvements are great, this is certainly the most stunning first release I've ever seen in the engine. Weapon placement seems a bit unsuitable in a couple of places in my opinion, such as the closeness of the two shotguns on the ground floor, and the two mp5's on either side of the inner wall. Putting two sets of gauss ammo with the gauss also seems like overkill, considering its not hugely difficult to get a hold of. I also think the map should have an LJ somewhere.

1. I'd love to add height variation there but I only have about 64
units of depth to work with before I hit the far side. I can't really
think of anything that would look good. It's also the part I dislike
the most.

2. Capital idea, one red light added.

3. Door added. Maybe I should move the window up a bit too. :smile:

4. Faces are now textured. I'll try and get a nice effect with those
streetlights, they are getting drowned out by the surrounding lights.

5. Added two more red lights. Do you think I went a bit overboard with
hte red lights altogether? They're all subtle but there are an awful
lot of them.

6. Changed the trim to the rusty metal one.

7. Changed the position of the lights and replaced the gray texture with something more fitting.

8. Neat little pool now added here thanks to you. :smile:

9. Clipped. I think I'll make it play a locked sound when you hit it too.

10. That texture's now fixed. The metal trim looks a bit silly on top though doesn't it?

11. It does look better with a trim :smile:

Turn down your brightness, you make it look crap. :wink: Cassius is in
charge of the weapons unless I don't hear from him in a few days at
which point I'll be left clueless. :biggrin:

Thanks a million for the comments and for going to the effort of taking screenshots.

Yeah my brightness is reasonably high actually, makes it easier to play on most maps (brightness 2, gamma 3). I also increased both contrast and brightness by 10 in photoshop for the screenshots, as sometimes they come out a bit dark.

About the overall red lighting, perhaps you could try and vary the colour a little, but red works well as a highlight as it is quite a powerful colour.

The trim on the planters, despite not really fitting with the texture on which it sits, still looks quite good in my opinion. Its a nice contrast the the textures around it.

Oy gubbins m8 im ratha peckish slap anotha shrimp on the barby there eh? hehe tally ho there ol chap god save the queen

(Translation from British: I would be honored to do the weapons, A_S.)

s**t, Reno, Thanto is beautiful in it's dark/moodiness - why must you rape it with your vile brightness?

I think its a tribute to the maps looks, that despite my horrible brightness settings, the map still looked damn good :razz:

lol

Just put up the last beta implementing Reno's ideas along with other
insignifigant stuff. I don't think there's anything glaringly
obvious that I missed. Anyhow thanks for all the comments, suggestions
and encouragement. I finally did it, and just to spite that old
bastard. (yeah you Jon) :wink:

You KNOW I'll find more to suggest - stuff I could have suggested in earlier versions but chose not to so I could use them now :razz:

Suggest away, you just won't see the results until the 8th. :wink:

Something I really did mean to suggest before is that you sort out the directory structure in the zip so you can just extract it all to your valve folder. At the moment you have the bsp on its own and a sounds folder, meaning you have to extract them individually to different places.

Cassius said:
Oy gubbins m8 im ratha peckish slap anotha shrimp on the barby there eh? hehe tally ho there ol chap god save the queen

(Translation from British: I would be honored to do the weapons, A_S.)

s**t, Reno, Thanto is beautiful in it's dark/moodiness - why must you rape it with your vile brightness?

Umm...that sounds more Australian then English in accent to me Bruce :wink:

lol owned by Adam

Well I took a look, and I finally have exhausted my suggestions. I'm not too sure those little antennas you put up behind the gauss are quite enough to break the monotony of that flat roofline however.

Take a look at this though, the map looks awesome from this view :smile: I believe it was about 3200 w_poly or something.

Heh I think it looks a bit silly. :smile:

In relation to the flat roofline I don't really know what to do. I
lowered the darker walls a bit but I've only about 64 units of depth to
work with so I can't add another storey like you originally suggested.

You could shift the whole map further into the centre, just make sure you align a particular vertex to an identical grid position elsewhere...if that makes sense :smile:

Do you just mean the top section? Moving the whole map would be pointless. :wink: