Advertising games to inappropriate markets

Some of you might remember me pointing out that play.com were listing
games such as Half-Life 2, Mortal Kombat Deception, and GTA: San
Andreas in their suggested christmas gifts for kids section...

http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=christmasgames&who=kids

Well I thought they may have updated it by now so I had another look
and was quite taken aback to see it was still the same. I emailed
play.com to find out why this was the case, and suggested they change
the games to something more appropriate. Here was their reply...

Dear Duncan,
<div> </div>

<div>Thank you for the email.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>We thank you for your thoughts on this matter
however we realise that some children, in particular teenagers, will want to
play these games despite the recommended age limit. As you legally have to be 18
or over to order from our site, we leave this decision to parental
discretion.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>Kind regards</div>

<div> </div>

[size=13]Email Support
Team

Personally I find this quite
disturbing. I appreciate the fact that teenagers will want to play
these games (hell, I would have if I wasn't old enough), and I don't
believe they should necessarily be stopped from it, but the point is
that this is blatant advertising of the games for an inappropriate
market. Fair enough, you need to be over 18 to use the site, but
putting these games in a section that parents may well look at for gift
ideas is unacceptable.

Thoughts?

[/size]

Well, that does seem a bit wrong, but:

http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=christmasgames&who=thelivingdead
http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=christmasgames&who=kids

Comparing them, I think it's just suggesting those games for everyone!

Dude get real. When you were a kid I'm sure you played these type of games. Doom... Wolfenstein... Duke Nukem 3D... Violent games aren't any worse than TV and movies little kids see all the time.

I'm not saying they are, and yes I did play inappropriate games for my
age and turned out fine. I don't think playing games like that is
likely to have any long term effect, no more so than films or whatever.
That doesn't mean I think they should be sold to kids, nor should films
that are unsuitable. Obviously you can't stop parents buying them for
kids and I think it should be up to the parents whether their child can
handle the game. This is just the point that these games are being
suggested as good for kids, and thats not on.

mazemaster said:
Dude get real. When you were a kid I'm sure you played these type of games. Doom... Wolfenstein... Duke Nukem 3D... Violent games aren't any worse than TV and movies little kids see all the time.

The problem is that parents (in general) get pissed off if they're ignorant about an issue when something happens they don't like.

For example, a lot of people assumed Mario Sunshine was a kiddy game, when it's actually incredibly challanging. I remember some friends telling me about parents who came back to stores wanting a refund, since the game was "too difficult for [their] child to play".

This goes into other areas, such as ratings.

Mario Sunshine was a great and challenging game. Anyways back on topic. The reason these websites are doing this is because nowadays violent games sell more. It's all about making money. I enjoy playing GTA and Half Life and Halo but I am also old enough to play them. The first FPS game I ever played was Goldeneye on N64, and that was when I was 11. Young kids are almost always going to be able to get their hands on a "Teen" or "Mature" rated games. The ESRB ratings are there to help parents choose the correct game for their kids but these websites are basically destroying that rating buy telling the ignorant parents that "Mature" rated game is suitable for their 10 year old. The only solution to this is to make every kid under 16 go to a morman private school until they're 32. This will get rid of a lot of the traffic on Steam and provide the rest of us a fag free enviroment in CS:S.

the internet sighs

trends used to take about 20 years to go full cycle.. look around you, bell bottoms and polyester is coming back in style :rolleyes: , but on the net, its 6 to 12 months. we had a major debate about this very subject?? a year ago maybe. i figure we will start discussing guns and school kids next.

i was just at wal-mart, i passed a 4 foot tall stack of shot gun shells stacked in the isle for sale, told the wife, "if my british buddies could see that pile they would freak"

yup shotgun shells are available with no problems purchasing them.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>the internet sighs

trends used to take about 20 years to go full cycle.. look around you, bell bottoms and polyester is coming back in style :rolleyes: , but on the net, its 6 to 12 months. we had a major debate about this very subject?? a year ago maybe. i figure we will start discussing guns and school kids next.

i was just at wal-mart, i passed a 4 foot tall stack of shot gun shells stacked in the isle for sale, told the wife, "if my british buddies could see that pile they would freak"

yup shotgun shells are available with no problems purchasing them.

</DIV></DIV>

Well, uh, not trying to de-rail this to a gun debate, but this is America you know. The Brits aren't leagally alowed to own weapons (guns), so yes, they naturally would freak. I myself, don't see a problem -- guns are legal in our country.
To the game topic; hell yea that seems a little disturbing. I do belive that there are teens, mabye even kiddies (I was one of them :biggrin: ) who are playing M rated games, like Half-Life (maybe not GTA) and Mortal Kombat. I don't see the problem with kids buying them, with parental permission of course, but I do think that suggesting to parents that "this is a good buy for kids" is a bad idea. If the kids want it, they'd already be interested in it :razz: For instance, playing DOOM when you're 4 years old.

We are leagally alowed to own guns like shot guns but not assault rifles like the AK47 or M16.

But we also dont sell them or ammo in supermarkets.

But again back on track.

I think that that is just totaly irisponsible for play.com to list those games in the section for kids even if you carnt use the site if your under 18 its just not responsible for any shop if its on the net or a phisical shop.

I'm going to have to agree with ReNo on this one - the choice of games and to a lesser extent, the CDs for 'kids' do seem a little off. Most of the games in that section are more adult orientated (such as The Getaway: Black Monday etc.).

However, I do agree with Play that it is the parent's decision whether the child plays such games....but how would the parent know the game is aimed at an adult market when Play do not advertise the fact that the games have been rated by the BBFC as 18 (or whatever).

They state the age rating for DVDs, so I don't understand why they do not for games.

My point of view is in no way biased - I just think that if something has been rated to be for a certain age-group, there is a valid reason why.

i wasn't trying to derail it to guns, i was commenting on how we talk/post in cycles.. i figure we will have a school shooting thread pretty soon.

It's funny how some people try so hard not to derail a thread.

I think that with society violence is just an everyday thing (especially in "blow 'em up" America). I find it very irresponsable that parents let their kids play voilent games. I was extrelely pissed off seeing a 12-14 year old waiting in line with his dad at 12:00 midnight for Halo 2. For one why is the kid out so late, and why is he playing a game like that?

Kids play and watch violent things......there is no stopping that, but do they really understand whats going on in these violent games/movies? No they dont, they only get half the things.

Like in Halo 2, do you think a 10-14 year old understands the politics behind the covanent? No thats why these games/movies are not cut out or them, because they are designed for a more adult audience. The drive for these children is to be one of the adults, and be part of that adult world makes them feel good.

Games like GTA push the line to its breaking point. Whats the difference between violence and action? Blowing up cars is action, but taking a base ball bat and hitting a random person to the ground and beating them from there is flat out violence. And that is where I have always drawn the line in video games when I was young (Although there were not that many out when I was 10-14 years old). Im not trying to make anyone mad here, I just think it IS irresponsable to sell/advertise violent games to kids.

Reno you are my Hero for writing to them and bringing that fact to their attention. Perhapse you should write again, telling play.com that kids know how to order stuff with credit cards online these days. Does play.com know whether George W. Bush is buying HL2 or whether it Jr. George W. Bush buying the game? NO THEY DONT.

yes duncan, it is disturbing.....

advertising, kids, parents, video game makers, congress, contractor......in our "free" capitalist society, EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING will take what you/we let them, as much leeway as we would stomach....how much bulls**t are any of you willing to put up with?

Dr Brasso...

...ammo...in bloody wal-mart...

Orpheus said:
Orph speaks - dodgy quote function has both quotes

Well, uh, not trying to de-rail this to a gun debate, but this is America
you know. The Brits aren't leagally alowed to own weapons (guns), so
yes, they naturally would freak. I myself, don't see a problem -- guns
are legal in our country.

To the game topic; hell yea that seems a little disturbing. I
do belive that there are teens, mabye even kiddies (I was one of them :biggrin:
) who are playing M rated games, like Half-Life (maybe not GTA) and
Mortal Kombat. I don't see the problem with kids buying them, with
parental permission of course, but I do think that suggesting to
parents that "this is a good buy for kids" is a bad idea. If the kids
want it, they'd already be interested in it :razz: For instance, playing DOOM when you're 4 years old.

You miss the point of the debates we have here - yes legislation cannot
be changed, but we can discuss the rights/wrongs of i - democracy bars
us from enacting our willl in reality. But yes, another discussion,
another time.

As for games - it is not about the recommended ratings for children,
the issue TRULY relates to how well one is parented. In the cases of
abused children and so forth, it isn't relevant, but too many parents
today are happy to see children as the next accessory in their
consumerist crown - which in my opinion, is quite sad.

The point is that children, no matter how much they debate their
freedoms as teenagers, are still at the whim of the parents, through
monetary and emotional control. The debate should really be about
parenting skills, attitudes toward children and their development and
intervention of the state into childcare.

We all know discussing video game/film violence is an issue to
undertake, but at the end of the day the buck falls with the parents
(bar cases of dodgy shop assistants or true pyschological disorder) -
it is more or less a moot point. I know for a fact I was quite
restricted in my exposure to mature material (through lack of finance
to buy megadrive/snes/n64/pc etc, and through my parents giving me
attention and education), but as ReNo says - we have turned out as
"normal".

I know for a fact Orpheus, if he doesn't mind me saying, uses his
discretion toward gaming and media sources with his kids, and that's
responsible parenting. The blame should not fall on the child, or the
state control - it's all about the parents morals, and how much of an
interest they take in their childs life.

</2cents>

P.S. As for UK gun control, Blueballs
:razz: gimp is right - we can own guns (shotguns, carbines) but we have
strict licensing and no armed police at all - 99% of legal gun owners
never commit an offence. Unfortunately our stance on guns and other
issues has turned crime to petty assault with bare fists and "non
firearm" weapons :/ (related again to poor parenting/overconsumerism
within society)

P.P.S. - good on you ReNo, I remember you showing us this in IRC. I
applaud you for taking that stance and approaching the company - me? im
too apathetic and realist to know things wont change through control -
but it does go some way to limiting the spread of mature games to
minors, and in turn the bad reputation of the internet and gaming in
general.

Just a shame we can't govern the whole country and intern everyone into forced re-education/parenting classes/execution.<br style="color: lightblue;">
<br style="color: lightblue;">
But that'd be a little harsh. Darn human rights courts.<br style="color: lightblue;">
<br style="color: lightblue;">

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting omegaslayer</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I think that with society violence is just an everyday thing (especially in "blow 'em up" America). I find it very irresponsable that parents let their kids play voilent games. I was extrelely pissed off seeing a 12-14 year old waiting in line with his dad at 12:00 midnight for Halo 2. For one why is the kid out so late, and why is he playing a game like that?</DIV></DIV>
You don't think a high school freshman can handle playing Halo 2 and being out at midnight?

I think the point he was making that by our own definition of morals
the kid should be tucked up asleep, and not even thinking of Halo II.

But I dunno.

In fact, just ignore me skulks off back to lair

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

I know for a fact Orpheus, if he doesn't mind me saying, uses his discretion toward gaming and media sources with his kids, and that's responsible parenting. The blame should not fall on the child, or the state control - it's all about the parents morals, and how much of an interest they take in their childs life.
</DIV></DIV>

my children are not permitted to play any games i do not approve of, so far we have not found one.

the point is though, my children understand real vs. gaming. i dunno if there truly is any other point to be made, but i feel this one should be most important if there is another reason.

my wife and i decided before we began a family that if the child were old enough to ask, they deserved an honest answer, one dependent on the age of the child of course. we are not going to describe how many strokes it takes to achieve orgasm for instance, but we will describe wombs and its roll in child birth.

anywho's, i have noticed a distinct lack in parenting in regards to what children learn from the parent. the very person who should govern the childs knowledge is slipping on the job. the child has no recourse but to seek alternate input, usually from peers.

anywho's i feel a child can play any game out there with the proper preparations mentally in place... if a child knows a head shot kills in real life and be made to understand exactly how damned long dead lasts, thats all they need to know to be able to function as a person.
/ 2 cents

Gwil said:
I know for a fact Orpheus, if he doesn't mind me saying, uses
his discretion toward gaming and media sources with his kids, and
that's responsible parenting. The blame should not fall on the child,
or the state control - it's all about the parents morals, and how much
of an interest they take in their childs life.

my children are not permitted to play any games i do not approve of, so far we have not found one.

the point is though, my children understand real vs. gaming. i
dunno if there truly is any other point to be made, but i feel this one
should be most important if there is another reason.

my wife and i decided before we began a family that if the
child were old enough to ask, they deserved an honest answer, one
dependent on the age of the child of course. we are not going to
describe how many strokes it takes to achieve orgasm for instance, but
we will describe wombs and its roll in child birth.

anywho's, i have noticed a distinct lack in parenting in
regards to what children learn from the parent. the very person who
should govern the childs knowledge is slipping on the job. the child
has no recourse but to seek alternate input, usually from peers.

anywho's i feel a child can play any game out there with the
proper preparations mentally in place... if a child knows a head shot
kills in real life and be made to understand exactly how damned long
dead lasts, thats all they need to know to be able to function as a
person.

/ 2 cents

Exactly - and I feel, despite our never ending tit for tat wars Orph,
that you are a good parent. It is about right and wrong, reality and
fiction. That all comes through attention and treating the kid as part
of the family - not just an addon to the "unit" (ie car, house, 2nd
car, new kitchen, child, patio, barbecue, holiday, child).

I could span on a much wider rant about society as a whole and its
deeply flawed values, but i'll spare everyone the reading effort :wink:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Exactly - and I feel, despite our never ending tit for tat wars Orph, </DIV></DIV>

i believe that you and i would argue less in real life than in here or MSN gwil.. somehow the syntax is lost via text, and i am not educated enough to circumvent that handicap i am afraid.

we argue out of habit now though i feel. we are comfortable enough with each other that even though the heat is very high sometimes, it doesn't burn our relationship at all.. i can come in the next day after you and i had a whopper and feel nothing from it in the form of retaliation or rekindling it anew.
anyways, we are drifting. thats about as mushy as i care for one reply :heee:

I'm saying nothing.<br style="color: lightblue;">
<br style="color: lightblue;">
People will talk!<br style="color: lightblue;">

And back to the topic...

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I'm saying nothing.<BR style="COLOR: lightblue"><BR style="COLOR: lightblue">People will talk!<BR style="COLOR: lightblue">
And back to the topic...

</DIV></DIV>

well blushes

i have learned one thing since i got older, its not homo to say the word relationship in a sentence even if its two males as the subject matter.

i am, shall we say focused/narrow minded about the gay thing, but this is a different animal entirely.

/me stops before gwil is shamed more.
go toss a few, it'll make you feel better. :smile:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

my children are not permitted to play any games i do not approve of, so far we have not found one.

the point is though, my children understand real vs. gaming. i dunno if there truly is any other point to be made, but i feel this one should be most important if there is another reason.

my wife and i decided before we began a family that if the child were old enough to ask, they deserved an honest answer, one dependent on the age of the child of course. we are not going to describe how many strokes it takes to achieve orgasm for instance, but we will describe wombs and its roll in child birth.

anywho's, i have noticed a distinct lack in parenting in regards to what children learn from the parent. the very person who should govern the childs knowledge is slipping on the job. the child has no recourse but to seek alternate input, usually from peers.

anywho's i feel a child can play any game out there with the proper preparations mentally in place... if a child knows a head shot kills in real life and be made to understand exactly how damned long dead lasts, thats all they need to know to be able to function as a person.
/ 2 cents

</DIV></DIV>

Very well put Orph :smile:

Toss a few? :razz: What on earth do you mean!

Sorry, I dunno what it is with innuendo. After a couple of beers my
raging feminist/showboating (hoho) tendencies along with sociopolitical issues et al come
out my closet.

In a non homosexual way, it's a closet - just full of skeletons and aggression :razz:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext> it's a closet - just full of skeletons
</DIV></DIV>

/me always wondered,

i have had some fantastic times in a closet why should the skeletons have all the fun i always said :biggrin:

i have been lucky i suppose, i cannot honestly recall anything i am ashamed of. i regret some things, but not so much to bury them or any metaphoric sense.

shock of shocks, i have even been 100% faithful to the spouse for over 23 years now. thats something to brag about in these free thinking times we live in :smile:

thinks of closets
damn you gwil, now you got me thinking about it :dodgy:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting SuperCrazy</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting omegaslayer</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I think that with society violence is just an everyday thing (especially in "blow 'em up" America). I find it very irresponsable that parents let their kids play voilent games. I was extrelely pissed off seeing a 12-14 year old waiting in line with his dad at 12:00 midnight for Halo 2. For one why is the kid out so late, and why is he playing a game like that?</DIV></DIV>
You don't think a high school freshman can handle playing Halo 2 and being out at midnight?

</DIV></DIV>
No I never said that. When I was in high school I was playing 007 goldeneye and staying up late till 11-12 pm. The point I was trying to make was that it is very irresponsable of the parent letting their kid stay out late for a game that hes not suited for. If you fall in that range im sorry, I know that there are kids out there who can handle this kind of stuff. But I rest my case that it was very stupid on the parents part to let them stay out late to get a game that they cant legaly buy. I cant be the only one that thinks this because the entire crowd "booed" the kid down the corridor.