Riot (HL2DM CTF)

Hi guys

I've uploaded 6 pics of my imminent HL2DM CTF map, Riot. The first beta should be available later this week when Valve intend to make the new weapons available (I'll be adding the Slam, etc then releasing the beta).

Comments welcome.

Looks nice there buddy, but maybye too dark?

:dorky:

I kinda dig the colourless look in the first area, very depressing and
suiting of the theme, but on the other hand I think the map as a whole
could benefit from some more colourful areas. Looking like a cool map
though, mostly simplistic architecture but done really well.

Good to see more CTF maps making there way out there now, too. So
far, there are only 2 ctf maps that I've seeing get regular rotation on
a number of servers...and these only first showed up a couple weeks ago.

Beta 1 is now available to download for those interested. Comments & feedback is appreciated.

I already know that it's possible to pickup your own flag and move it a short distance before it is automatically dropped, and keep doing this to move it around the level. I've done a fix which will be in beta 2.

Thanks.

I had a run around and was thoroughly impressed. This is certainly one
of the most professional quality custom maps I've come across. Here are
a few things I think could be improved though...



I like the idea, but the holes in these cells really aren't convincing.
Perhaps have a less uniform section knocked out, or maybe actually have
bits of the missing section of wall knocked down on the floor? Some
broken pipes or metal beams protruding from the remaining sections
could help it look nicer?



These little corridor bits are really rather tight and one person can
block it. I understand space is limited and it leads to a little
dead-end outpost thing, but it still felt rather amateurish amongst the
rest of the level in both looks and gameplay.



This wall is really long and featureless. Some pillars, vents, pipes, ANYTHING really would help it look more interesting.



I didn't much care for the large block in the centre of these handrails
for some reason. I understand you are providing cover, but perhaps you
could make it look a little nicer somehow? The 6 window paned door
things you took from lockdown have little indents in their metal
surface that somehow makes it look really cool, you might consider
trying that here.



Much love for the exterior region, but I think the lighting was a
little basic out here. The spotlights you do have look great, but I
feel that relying on your light_environment for the rest of the area
leaves it feeling bland. Maybe add in some more spot lights or wall
lights? Would add a bit of much needed colour in my opinion.

Anyway, map is looking excellent, good stuff :smile:

Thanks for the feedback, ReNo. All are valid comments - the type I'd expect from someone who himself has high standards. :smile:

I'll look into improving all the areas you mentioned for the next beta. Everyone has reported that performance is fine so adding more detailing isn't a problem.

Stupid disabling of comments with a forum thread... My comment-

Too bland and monocoloured.

Downloaded 6.29mb in 3 seconds, woot :biggrin: Apologies for the very brief and obvious comments; I would agree with the above statements that it does look bland in places (especially that corridor near the flag) and the lighting is dull (it does give a cold feeling, but it just needs more... how about setting the time of day to be sunrise/set, so that the outdoor lighting isn't exactly the same as the interiors, and you get to stream in light through windows?)

Also I see from dm_steamlab that physics-enabled hanging lights are in fashion now :razz:

I'd like to keep an oppressive feeling with the lighting - it is a prison setting after all - but yeah the lighting could do with some work and I'm trying out different stuff atm.

The hanging lights are not physics enabled.

Just gave the map a quick run-through. Just have to say, overall I really dig it. Your maps have a certain style/ambience that always come across well, and I see this one having lots of potential. As previous posters stated, I think you could push the lighting more in the middle areas, as they seemed to flatten out the most to me.

My big critique is with the layout. My first impression, was that it's just too dense and intricate between the two bases. I haven't really played any serious hl2dm-ctf, so this is just coming from the gut, but I would be curious to see how this map felt with more basic connectivity in the middle. Right now, with my impression of the game, and peoples willingness to learn new, big, maps - I think this map might be more accessible if simplified.

That was the beauty of maps like 2fort in tfc, and dust in cs; they are just so easy to jump into, quick to learn, and play fast. I have always been a fan of big maps, but from my experience selling them and getting them to stick around is a challenge.

Thanks Finger. I'm working on the lighting atm - the lighting in the rooms I've done so far is more interesting and not as flat. I used too many lights and not enough strong light_spots.

Regarding the layout, you're right, there is one section in between each base that I'll be changing. The main bottom tier of the level only takes 6 right-angled turns to go from one flag to another - I'm happy with that. I think the problem is the upper tier as there are too many twists & turns. Simplifying them is next on my hit-list.

I'll have to disagree with Reno and many people completely about the outdoor lighting... I think you could do with some fog or something, make it kinda a misty day thats dull.

If you need good lighting then your architecture is poor in form.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Myrk-</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>If you need good lighting then your architecture is poor in form.</DIV></DIV>

??? I said nothing about needing good lighting, just that I recognise it needs improving and am doing something about it.
Snark Pit seems to pride itself on the quality of feedback given but with the exception of the outdoor lighting suggestion (which I'll try out), the feedback you've given thus far Myrk is what some here mock the Steam forums for. If you're going to give feedback, a bit more explanation than throwaway sentences like this (and your previous "Too bland and monocoloured") wouldn't hurt.

Finally had a chance to check this out Keved and I am impressed with
how much you've done in such a short time (though CTF is a bit of a cut
and paste job :biggrin: ).

Most of Reno's criticism regarding the narrow
passages and quite bland architecture in some places I would definately
agree with. You should at least be able to fit two players side by side
down the corridors in question, so that it doesn't turn into a frag
fest when a grenade is thrown in, or someone has the ar2, giving people
move to run or manuever.

I really noticed the lack of finer
scene setting detail and interactivity. While the lighting is pretty
spot on (if a bit dark for my liking); and the architecture is good, I
found that for a destroyed prison, particularly after a riot, it felt
extremely empty and clean. I know its only an early beta and the props
and stuff will come later, but I know they will seriously enhance the
feel of the map.

On the lighting, I think you shouldn't go
overboard with different coloured lighting. The occaisional red
emergency light to highlight an area, or perhaps the flickering light
from some fires (a must in a prison riot) would certainly enhance the
feel of the map and make it more interesting.

I had some
problems with the overhead walkway areas. I noticed this with refinery,
while most of the walkways are fine, every now and again you get this
wooden plank placed over a fall. In combat they are too small, I often
found myself falling off when forced to hot foot it. Also I'm not sure
where they would get planks for walkways in a prison. Perhaps instead
make it a piece of the fence used on the walkways, which would not only
fit the theme much better, but also provide a wider walkway across the
gaps.

You might also want to try spiffing up the architecture a
bit, as its pretty plain at the moment, lots of blocks, nothing too
complex. Even shearing off the corners of pillars and some detail like
pipes in tunnels greatly enhances the scene. I suppose its a trade off
between playability and looks, but like you said you have fps to spare,
perhaps they would be some minor but worthwhile additions you could
make.

Apart from that looking very nice Keved :smile: .

I will try and give this a run through, but I would really like to play
this with other people. CTF is a hard game play to balance, do
you plan on submitting this to a server? I think the [K-9] server
would run somthing like this. If you do please send me a PM and I
would love to try it out.

A quick comment on the out door lighting that Reno talked about, I
quite like the screen shot there. I think that the blan, quited,
cold light really adds to the feeling that you seem to have all over
the map.

A few colored lights would help in some areas though. I'd look at
pictures from movies like 'the rock' for some insperation.

Thanks for your feedback Agent Smith/Dr Glass, all good stuff which I'll be doing something about for beta 2.

DrGlass, there are already some servers running the level. When I did this search at game monitor there were 5 servers to choose from.

http://www.game-monitor.com/search.php?map=tdmctf_riot_b1&game=all&country=

LOL, how is it, your 3 posted screens are so well optimized, and your 3 extra screens are so.... not?

i am truly busy today, but i do want to give this map my full attention bud. if i am able, i will get to it today sometime.. (my today, not yours :biggrin: )

anywho's /me is off for the day.. be good.

Notice: I do not play CTF maps so all i will do is concentrate on what i see that needs altering from an editing standpoint. Game play will have to be done by someone who plays this type of map. I also noticed that my screen shots are a tad bit darker than in the game, so do not base light intensity on my screens. Another thing of note, I do not really read other peoples critiques till I have done my own. In this way I do not pre-judge a map and possibly alter my views before I have even seen the map. If I comment on something that someone else has already, consider it note worthy enough that more than one person saw it and move on. Lastly, as i stated before, due to the HL2's engine ability, machine size is going to effect a critique in some ways. I may not notice some slowdowns now that I used to on my older machine. I figure however, anything over 30 FPS is all goodness.

Now without further delay..



Spawnpoint, at least the one I spawned on. Yes I realize the map is a night, or early morning setting, but i feel the light level can be raised just a bit. The colors hurt my eyes at this intensity. It could be only my eyes, but since this is my critique, I can only say how i feel. A bit more fog couldn't hurt. The cloudy sky would lead someone to believe that its almost ready to rain, or the humidity is high enough to warrant some fog.



2 things caught my attention right off. 1) the entry from this way looks built. Not by convicts, but by engineers. They had frames around the holes, where convicts would have settled for just opening the way enough to grant egress. 2) the rooms/cells were so empty. No debris, no dirt, not even a pile of old feces.. nothing. It was almost sterile. Of course this could be due to its unfinished nature, but at 90% or more completion, this map should have already contained a fair amount of ambient items. At the very least some old papers. The rooms/cells were mostly vacant of normal living items such as beds and potties. No sinks or other of the normal amenities were present.



No one would bother propping that door against that pillar.



Due to the light level in the map, I overlooked, or nearly overlooked a fair amount of items. I suggest some sort of an identifying feature. In my map Apex, it was dim like this and I added light spots over every item location to assist fragging.



Shadow under bench.. /me wonders how when none of the other items did this on any bench.



I asked myself at each end (red and blue) what would be the purpose of such a dead end alcove? No weapons of note existed. Perhaps I simply overlooked the purpose such as defensive. shrugs



Utility light above, old construction below would have been a nice touch. Perhaps a clean-up job left unfinished.



This washer area is sadly insufficient for so vast an instillation.



Heavy weapon and easy access = bad. Weapons of this nature should be medium to difficult to attain. Same holds true for that crossbow you had lying on the floor elsewhere I saw.



Where did all that debris come from? That pile of stuff could never have originated from above. Also it seems made up of rock, where dirt and concrete would have more likely been the major materials involved.



Them are the strongest electric wires in the history of construction



More debris, wrong material. I would also venture a guess that some plant life would grow this close to the outside. Drifting seeds and bird poop would guarantee that much.



Broken rails, no debris below.



Them have got to be the ugliest stairs in the history of editing .. seriously, they need help. They almost look added as an afterthought.



I was wrong, THESE are the ugliest. :biggrin:



I saw these lights sway when shot in other maps.. Would be a nice touch in this one as well.

Overall, a very nice map.. Considering its these. Prisons tend to be littered with dead ends so I never mentioned them. I think once the ambiance is addressed this map will move up several notches in its quality.

I would be happy to do a second critique after these things I posted are addressed, assuming I have not totally pissed you off thus far :smile:

/me saw keved read this.

me musta went to far. :

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>me musta went to far. :</DIV></DIV>

Not at all mate. Lots of valuable feedback there for me. Thanks very much for your efforts. By the time beta 2 is done I'll probably have spent another 10 hours on it, mostly sorting out the visuals - lighting changes, extra detailing, etc.

RE: the shadows under the benches. The shadows for ammo pickups had been disabled but no such option exists for the weapons. :sad: There are lots of weird weapon & dynamic prop shadows in many maps I've seen...items placed on a roof with the shadows in the room below etc. Not a great deal I can do about it really.

RE: the alcove - it is indeed intended for a defensive purpose. An "outlook" post of sorts, to see attackers coming in relative safety.
RE: the stairs...yep fair point, I thought that myself so have already changed them. :smile:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting keved</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Not at all mate. Lots of valuable feedback there for me. Thanks very much for your efforts.

</DIV></DIV>

sighs with relief

/me was worried.

Beta 2 is now available - feedback is very appreciated.

Changes in beta 2:

• Lots and lots of visual changes. Far too many to mention individually.
• File name changed from tdmctf_riot to ctf_riot.
• Game type changed from Capture The Flag to Bombing Run.
• Layout simplified above the entrance to each base.
• RPG moved to a more precarious location.
• Restored bump mapping on textures (beta 1 had bump mapping removed from 3 floor textures).

Much of the lighting has been totally redone. Hopefully you should now find the lighting isn't as flat as it was, yet still retains the oppressive prison feeling.

I did experiment with the light_env colour but opted to keep it a dark blue. Having a warmish colour, such as a sunset, resulted in weird looking isolated blobs of more colourful light on the interior floors (ie where the light_env is coming through windows above).

I'm pretty much at the limit of adding more detailing to the level - the bsp is now 15mb. Apparently the default filesize for servers uploading files to clients is around 16mb, so I don't really want to increase filesize any more & risk servers not giving the bsp to clients.

Comments are welcome. Thanks.

Edit: forgot to mention, if anyone has any ideas for what the balls get fired into (must fit into the prison theme), feel free to let me know.

sadly, i cannot tell with any certainty that i have a new version. the name changed but mine says:"ctf_prisonriot_b1" and is only 12.5 megs :/

i did however take a few screens.. mostly just opinionated screens, nothing that needs altered unless you concur.

i will post them in a few.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>sadly, i cannot tell with any certainty that i have a new version. the name changed but mine says:"ctf_prisonriot_b1" and is only 12.5 megs :/</DIV></DIV>
Pls make sure you've downloaded http://www.keved.com/ctf_riot_b2.zip The bsp should be called ctf_riot_b2.bsp and around 15mb in size. Seems like you've downloaded beta1 for the www.hl2ctf.com mod.

OK, scraps screens.. thanx for the direct link.

if i made the mistake, other may too.

Download took ages to start for me and then about 10% in I got an error
saying the file couldn't be found :sad: I'm trying it again, I'll let you
know if I have the same problem.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting ReNo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Download took ages to start for me and then about 10% in I got an error saying the file couldn't be found :sad: I'm trying it again, I'll let you know if I have the same problem.
</DIV></DIV>
i can upload to my briefcase if need be reno.. lemme know.

[edit] critique will have to wait, must got to town on errands. BRB

Yeah I might need that mate, I've tried about 4 times now and its stopped at a different point each time :sad:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting ReNo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Yeah I might need that mate, I've tried about 4 times now and its stopped at a different point each time :sad:
</DIV></DIV>

i will do it but in the mean time try this as i have had s**tload of keveds links go bad when i click on them.. when it stops, leave the process window open, and restart the download. it will usually complete. then you can close both when its finished.
dunno why, but every time i dload a link from keved it borks :sad:

[edit]

try this link

if that fails, go directly to my briefcase and look in the "keved" folder.

Only did a quick run-through, as i still am sick as a dog and have no energy today :sad:

these are just some quickie observations and mean nothing, if you chose to see them as such.



May be my wishful thinking, but the light level is much improved. It seems much brighter outside now, without actually ruining the night theme. Nice job.



May be just me, but this repeating texture looks wrong. I am unsure if there is a satisfactory replacement, but this one is wrong IMO.



Floor seems much to thin. Dunno why, but it caught my attention.



Light still doesn't sway when shot :razz:



Now this is a tuffy to explain, and a bitch to get into one screen shot as well. Notice specifically, the lights on the floor. you have the spotlight on the top, shining down on the bottom left, and the environmental light shining on the floor center. There is nothing actually wrong with the angles, but having that bright a light shine on the floor would blur out any ambient light such as the environ would cast. i suggest you increase the bounces. this map has IMO way to sharp a shadow line between light and dark. some areas actually look like they are in vacuum, as the line is so sharp. also, the light is not casting the correct number of shadows. the grate in the ceiling has no shadow, but the bars do. i hope all that made sense. i will gladly try to re-explain it if it is unclear.

now, i am going back to bed, /me feels woozy.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Just started a new job which requires 90mins travel each way. Haven't got much free time this week.

The light_env has indeed changed. The exterior is both brighter and less obviously blue.

I won't be making the lights react when shot or making the lights dynamic. :razz: I've limited the dynamic props to half-a-dozen and the fewer dynamic stuff in multiplayer, the better.

As for the lighting in the cell, the grate in the ceiling above is just a texture; it won't cast shadows. This isn't raytrace rendering or anything, you've gotta expect some things not to cast shadows, plus the lightmap resolution wouldn't be high enough for shadows from the thin metal grate anyway. :smile: . But I will try increasing light bounces and see what it looks like.

Thanks Orph.

You may want to consider renaming your map. I have a map released
under the same name for TFC: http://www.snarkpit.com/maps.php?map=1155
(Nugg3t is my old username BTW)

I also have a remake of it in production on source (for the Fortress Forever mod) under the same name =/

Just a suggestion.

I've played both the deathmatch version of this map and the version for
the CTF mod. In some ways, I like the deathmatch CTF version
better than the one for the actual CTF mod...however, in truth the CTF
mod is still in beta 1, so things might improve there in later releases
of the mod itself.

Rant:

This is, however, one of the few good maps ON the CTF mod right
now. Most of the maps that I've seen on the mod (that appear ONLY
on the mod) suck. I mean they REALLY suck. Some are just
giant boxes with thick block walls separating them, with no
architectural detail in them at all. A couple others are simply
tiny...smaller than many HL1 maps. I guess peeps who can't or
don't want to be bothered making quality detailed maps for HL2-DM or
CS:S, are making instead making maps for 3rd party mods, where the
sheer lack of available maps means that cheaper maps will get play time.

So far all my favorite CTF maps are still for un-modded HL2-dm
play. This includes Sectarra Ridge [sic], which has many special
functions, and whose main flaw is being 32 mbytes :biggrin: . Another
favorite map of mine is one that has five checkpoints, and the team
that captures all five checkpoints wins the match...it gets points for
uniqueness.

This map is good too, though :wink:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting onniguru</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>This is, however, one of the few good maps ON the CTF mod right now. Most of the maps that I've seen on the mod (that appear ONLY on the mod) suck.

</DIV></DIV>

All that I do for the HL2CTF.com mod is supply new versions of Riot for them, I don't have any say in anything else to do with the mod. But the mod authors have told me they recognise the lack in quality in some of the maps they're using right now and their main aim over the next few version is to improve map quality. Like you say, it is only beta 1, the quality will increase given time.
Bandit/Nugget - I'll probably be using ctf_prisonriot for the final version. In the recent Valve vs HL2CTF community games, 2 of the 3 games were played on the version of Riot I did for that mod, but the bsp is called ctf_prisonriot. Like I say, I'll prob be renaming the HL2DM version so it is ctf_prisonriot too.

Hi guys

The new beta is available to check out. It's gone straight from beta 4 up to beta 10 so there are too many changes to mention (I've been creating new betas for the HL2CTF.com mod version and have waited until having a settled layout etc before releasing a new beta of this HL2DM version).

Comments & feedback is very welcome.