dm_swamplight

So, while snarkpit was down, I released a beta version of this map at the Steampowered forum. The reaction was quite good, and I got lots of good critiques which I have tried to incorporate into this (hopefully final) version of the map. I am happy with the layout, and have just about reached my limit as far as the amount of polish I can push. Things I have done since last version:

• overall polish and increase of eye-candy

• created a simple trap (look for the red button and wall with hole)

• balanced weapons

• placed team specific spawns for tdm

• clipped all snags

• made ladders work smoothly (and added 1)

So, give the map a run-through and some good ole Snarkpit smackdown - I need the snark of approval before I release this puppy.

Looks pretty cool, but I know you know theres work to be done still with lighting... The light fixtures seem to be in random places.

Looks pretty sexy, I'll give this one a download and post later.

"Looks pretty cool, but I know you know theres work to be done still with lighting... The light fixtures seem to be in random places. "

examples? I know there are some spotlights stuck in certain places, but I was more interested in dramatic effect, than 100% logical placement. Did you actually play the map, or are you going by screenshots alone?

Just 5 minutes ago, I was able to reproduce the error that keved was having with the green tile floors. I switched my shader detail to low, and they turn super ugly. I don't know what else to do with, other than replace them, as it doesn't seem to happen with any other texture.

Apologies for the screenshot-only-critiquing, but why is #2 so bright? The map looks familiar though, I hope that the layout has been pulled together!

Hmm...screenie #2 doesn't look overly bright to me - certainly doesn't feel too bright ingame. Go play the darn map! :razz:

Ok, it looks like there are 2 versions of the green tile texture; one with bump and one without. The bump version seems to be missing an alpha map for the spec channel (hence the glossy, ugly, specularity), but the non-bump version seemed fine with low shader settings. The texture is Tilefloor019a_nobump (the one that looks ok); just incase anyone else is using this texture - you might want to check your map with low shader specs.

I'll take a run around tomorrow and do a proper critique, but its a little late in the day for me to do one just now :smile:

It doesn't look bad, but it looks strange. The lighting is pretty all-over-the-place. In almost every screenshot, there's something that doesn't look like it has any conceivable purpose.

Hmm, well don't judge it by screenshots alone, Cass. I'm not neccesarily going for strict realism here, but I did hope it felt solid, functional, and interesting. Maybe strange is good, I don't know - I definately want it to have some unique character.

Hurrah! Random Deathmatch arenas! All we need now is the Gauss gun...

Hmmm, well isn't the whole point of this endeavor to find create something that is fun to play and looks interesting. I don't see anything wrong with a random deathmatch arena, as long as it plays well and looks good. Do you even play this game Myrk?

Actually, I wouldn't mind a little gauss action.

Had a run about and I'm impressed. Quite an improvement over parasite
in my opinion, and its significantly nicer in game than in the
screenshots. Anyway, onto the feedback...



I like the intensity of this light on the ceiling, but does that
shadowed line make sense? I'm not sure whats casting it, but perhaps
I'm just overlooking it.



I like the ambience in this area, but looks wise its leaving a little
to be desired. That just doesn't look like a convincing vertical end to
the wall. Its kinda nitpicking, but some of the pipes kinda clash with
the texture on the wall as well, when they just jut straight into it.



Kinda awkward looking at the corner there, might wanna try and make it look more smooth or something?



This line of debris or whatever looks odd. Try and make it more
naturally shaped perhaps, with more variety in how far it comes into
the swampy area?



I don't think this texture works as a floor texture. If you insist on using it, it could probably use better alignment.



If that stain decal is meant to be due to the duct, then you might
wanna reorder the overlays so the duct hides the stain section it is
above.



The texture used on this vent looks pretty crappy in my opinion. The
duct on the end of it is too detailed and shiny compared to the body
texture's simplicity, and it ends up looking pretty bad.



I really liked this bit, but felt the yellow gas looked a bit wierd.
Not sure if it had crossed your mind, but this could prove to be a
fairly decent trap by having a valve somewhere that increases the steam
output and burns players below.



I would have liked this room to have a line of fire to the one below -
maybe breakable glass or something? If you have purposefully blocked
off the firing line for gameplay reasons then its cool.



Love it :biggrin: The heat waves were a bit of a shock at first (thought it
was a visual glitch for a few seconds!) but its good to see them used.
Could perhaps have used a more obvious source though, like some broken
pipes inside that hole instead of just that intact one?



Not sure if I accidentally knocked something from under this or it begins like this, but this sawblade is just floating there...



4 barrels together like this seems over the top, particularly given
that you can't get direct access to throw them. Chain explosions kill
performance for a lot of people, and in HL2DM (unless they have fixed
it) chain reactions only work once and after respawn any additional
explosive barrels just get launched away from the first one to go off.



Another good example of the rather poor looking vents. I think you should use the prop ones or find a better texture.



My performance took a dive at this point, but I never noticed it
stutter elsewhere. Looks like overuse of fancy, expensive
materials...damn swapbuffers!

All in all, looking great. I love the layout for the most part, nowhere
felt redundant or out of the way. Lighting was overall nicely handled.
Should be a fun map :smile:

Thanks Reno. All good observations, and motivation to keep polishing things up. Mucho appreciation!

/me stops reading/looking, i am doing this critique next.. go read the one i did for keved just now guys. :smile:

NOTICE:I do not really read other peoples critiques till I have done my own. In this way I do not pre-judge a map and possibly alter my views before I have even seen the map. If I comment on something that someone else has already, consider it note worthy enough that more than one person saw it and move on. Lastly, as i stated before, due to the HL2's engine ability, machine size is going to effect a critique in some ways. I may not notice some slowdowns now that I used to on my older machine. I figure however, anything over 30 FPS is all goodness.

Now without further delay..



The light level in my screens always seems a bit dimmer than in game, as such it sounds odd when i say this light is to bright, cause the screen says otherwise but, take my word for it, this light is way to bright.



If this thing sparked this much for real, it would long ago have burned to a cinder. if possible its spark frequency needs reduced to an occasional outburst.



Texture misalignment, but my reason for the screen was to say that i felt the pillar/beam looked wrong in there and either needed removed or altered in some way. perhaps it was the fat that it reflected the outside blue, far more than the inside white light it was closer to. the white light should have overpowered the blue.



I know you can suck those things out of there with the gravity gun, but the narrow area looks wrong... almost n00b. no construction structure would have such a space between. at least none i have seen before.



that light, where is it all coming from?



nice glass, but would be nicer with small opening to fire through to below. not big enough to walk through, just fire through.



that patch on the floor, reflected like ice, what is it?



from an engineering standpoint, i can say honestly that beam will not work to hold the weight above.



skybox way to low.. my son fired off an exploding drum and it contacted the sky and blew up



heavy weapon, easy access = bad.



those heat ripples were a nice touch.



texture misalignment, very noticeable too.

as apparent, most of my comments are small issues, i could find nothing blatant to complain about other than the maps vast size. I am not even sure i saw it all, as i got lost several times. there is no real identifying features in this map to say "go here"

architecturally, i love it and it plays smooth, course that could be only my new machine too :smile:

nice job old man.

i went to the exact same place Duncan did to see how it looked from my angle/perspective. the difference was phenomenal. note that i am in almost exactly the same position.





this is a perfect example of how difficult it is going to be to not only critique these new maps, but to construct maps that will play on low end PC's..

Looks Great, and use the tips these guys suggested and it will be a great map :smile:

Finger, to further ReNo's chain reaction explosion note, through my extensive research (read: playing HL2DM nonstop :razz: ) I've found that the chain reaction issue can cause clients (and servers) to go loopy and just crash.

Might be worth reducing the numbers.

Also, props piled on spawn areas disarm the player for all weapons bar the default (SMG), so try and avoid having stacks of props near spawn areas.

EDIT: Also, weapons placed too close to walls, if hit by an explosion (and sail through the air cos of the physics) they have a tendency to disappear out of the level and never return.

Thing is, my computer isn't even low end, its a mid range really. I'm
running a decent system bar my graphics card, which, being a GF4
ti4200, isn't exactly that bad either. Almost every map I've seen with
poor performance has been so due to this swap buffers bar :sad:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting ReNo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Thing is, my computer isn't even low end, its a mid range really. I'm running a decent system bar my graphics card, which, being a GF4 ti4200, isn't exactly that bad either. Almost every map I've seen with poor performance has been so due to this swap buffers bar :sad:
</DIV></DIV>

i am not posting this to further brag on my new PC i promise.

perhaps its a GeForce issue Duncan. maybe driver related.

seems to me that the numbers should be similar, even though my card is bigger. (numbers of swap buffers)
what exactly are swap buffers anyways?

My P3 450 w/ 256mb RAM lagged with CS/HL/TFC (like, 10-20fps maximum) - yet ran the old WON based games like lightning on Windows 98.

So with all things considered - Steam, Windows XP, Windows generally and Half Life 2 all running, plus any other background apps you might have (firewall etc),.. I wouldn't be surprised if all that can fix that is an upgrade of GFX/CPU/RAM, ReNo.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>So with all things considered - Steam, Windows XP, Windows generally and Half Life 2 all running, plus any other background apps you might have (firewall etc),.. I wouldn't be surprised if all that can fix that is an upgrade of GFX/CPU/RAM, ReNo. </DIV></DIV>
now my new machine is virtually 100% a gaming machine. i have almost nothing running in the background when i play or critique. perhaps you should run "msconfig" prior to critiquing Duncan. :/

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
what exactly are swap buffers anyways?

</DIV></DIV>

Texture fill rate. The more env crap rendering on a texture, and the more of that texture which is on-screen, the more framerate gets totally hammered. I had the problem on Riot where I had used certain textures on the floor so I extracted the vmt text file, edited out all the extra rendering stuff, saved it with a suffix of _custom, and framerate doubled.

Valve do seem to have done something about it in the latest update though. I've been able to go back to the default textures for Riot beta 2.
I'll take a look at your new version of Swamplight shortly, Finger.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting keved</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
what exactly are swap buffers anyways?

</DIV></DIV>
Texture fill rate. The more env crap rendering on a texture, and the more of that texture which is on-screen, the more framerate gets totally hammered.

</DIV></DIV>
so, given what i just read, how come reno and i got 2 different readings from the same point? shouldn't we be seeing the same crap rendering?

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
so, given what i just read, how come reno and i got 2 different readings from the same point? shouldn't we be seeing the same crap rendering?

</DIV></DIV>

Perhaps one of you is running in dx8 mode, the other in dx9?
If you find any texture which has extra rendering stuff like bump mapping, orientate your view so that texture fills the entire screen (ie, if the texture is on the floor, crouch and look directly down). Swap buffers is likely very high. If the extra rendering effects from the texture's vmt file are removed, swap buffers would be noticeably lower in the same position (I've tried it myself).

ok, i went back and looked on my old PC.

this is duncans:


my old PC: stats 1.8 P4 512 pc2100 and a 9000 radeon 64 meg (DX 8.1)

Wierd I was getting 20fps in that shot, and obviously the
performance issues were down to the swap buffers. I wonder whats up
with my system, as I have a better setup than the one you posted. Do
you have your shader detail set to high or low? It could make a
significant difference I guess.

my P4 1.8 with 512-pc2100 and 64-radeon 9000



my 3500+ 64bit with 512-pc3200 and a 256 radeon 9800



before you ask, i preset my HL2 to 800x600 for critiques, i normally run it on 1024x768.. I hate resizing 2 dozen screens to fit snarkpit. :sad:

I also force my 9000 to run as 9.0 harware. for good or ill it seems to work perfectly.

Hmm, it might be due to the fact I run with high texture detail. The
recommended for my system is medium, but given that HL2 and CS:S both
ran fine on high I never turned it down. Oh, and I'm running at dx 8.0.

Orph, thanks for the indepth review. Definately food for thought, and nice that it was generally a different perspective than Reno's. Between the two, I've got more than enough feedback to kick this level up a notch. Once addressed, I will try to respond to most observations, so you know how my changes reflect your critiques.

Finger, some more comments...

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300009gh.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300015dg.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300025iq.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300038nc.jpg

http://img174.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img174&image=dmswamplightb300041gz.jpg

http://img235.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img235&image=dmswamplightb300056dp.jpg

http://img212.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img212&image=dmswamplightb300066po.jpg

Also, the stairs could all do with player clips. When walking up them there's a juddering effect, and when walking down them one bounces.

Very fine level though. Plenty of variety visually, I like it a lot.

Great stuff. I don't think I've ever had so many screenshots taken of a map before :razz: I've covered most of the observations from reno and orpheus, with tonights work. I'll shape even more up, based on your points.

You've definately caught on to one thing - I just kind of threw props in the level. I did this with the intention of proper placement later, but at the time, just wanted to get something in for playtesting.

I have already replaced the green tile floor texture with a non-bump version, so maybe that will help the swap buffer issue. I haven't had any problem with it personally (1 gig of ram maybe?), and hadn't heard of anyone from steampowered experiencing problems with that area, but those +showbudget screenies sure don't lie. Doesn't happen on my machine, though. I'll make sure it's not an issue before release, even if it means replacing textures.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Finger</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Great stuff. I don't think I've ever had so many screenshots taken of a map before :razz: </DIV></DIV>

i was speaking true, i do not pre-read comments posted by my mates here if i am sure i will critique a map. i dunno about the rest, but i have noticed that we each seem to have our own private niggles we look for. it didn't even occur to me about items, as i assume that until a map is completed they are only place holder items anyways. (unless its blatant like the RPG)

it is nice to know and gives you a good feeling to be associated with people who give such quality feedback.
however, whispers to keved you need to read my tutorial :biggrin:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
however, whispers to keved you need to read my tutorial :biggrin:

</DIV></DIV>

Sorry Orph, guess I've been using ADSL at work & home for too long now. Can't remember what a modem dialtone sounds like, or the pain of waiting for pictures to download. :sad:

Finger, there's a problem with your explosive barrels. The initial batch of barrels will first burn for a few seconds then explode, however, when a barrel has been destroyed once, from then on it will instantly explode even if hit with just 1 pistol bullet, and they won't burn or explode at all if hit by splash damage from other exloding barrels.
Maybe you're using prop_physics_respawnable for the explosive barrels? To set them up so the barrels will burn first and take splash damage, basically they should be prop_physics, increase a maths_counter when destroyed, then when all explosive barrels in the level are destroyed the maths_counter fires a point_template, which respawns the explosive barrels correctly. Take a look at the lockdown vmf for more info.

I assumed the problem with the explosive barrels doing that was down to
a bug that would probably eventually be fixed, but I guess if lockdown
has them done in a different way then perhaps I'm wrong. Going by that
method though, you need to destroy ALL explosive barrels before any
respawn right? If so that sounds like a pretty poor workaround :sad:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting ReNo</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Going by that method though, you need to destroy ALL explosive barrels before any respawn right? If so that sounds like a pretty poor workaround :sad:
</DIV></DIV>
Yep, that's right. There's either the lockdown method in which all barrels must be destroyed then they all respawn (and burn/explode properly), or use prop_physics_respawnables and put up with the only fully working barrels being the initial iterations.

I don't get why it is like that, as there are no scenarios I can think
of in which you would want a prop to act different on subsequent
respawns to how it acts initially. I really hope it is just a
bug/oversight that they plan on fixing.

It's a bug - lockdown and overwatch both suffer from it. That's why it's such a bad idea to carry barrels around 5 minutes into the game.

Also, keved it seems to be sporadic as to which barrels are affected - I don't think there is a proper workaround, because i've seen the problem in all 3 of the Valve DM maps.

Well, I'm sitting around at work, waiting for stuff to happen, so I may as well take the time to respond to those who critiqued my map. I figure it would be easier to address the things I decided not to change, which were suggested; as it was the smaller number. Most of the suggestions actually resulted in some action, and I must say the map is better for it.

---

• Reno's suggestion to incorporate trap into green-gas room:

Thought about it from the start. I actually built that room with this in mind. I decided against it, when I got the idea for the wall-hole-explosion setup. I was hesitant to do 2 traps. I am actually hesitant to do 1 trap, but the explosion seemed simple enough and not very easy to spam. You are right, the hurtie-gas would have been cool, but not as cool as an explosion IMO (unless they are locked in the room and choke to death, which is too extreme).

---

• Orpheus suggestion to move the RPG from swamp area:

I definately understand where you're coming from, and most of the time would agree with the blanket statement that powerful weapons shouldn't be so easily accessible. There are exceptions to the rule, however, and I honestly feel that this is one (feedback from dedicated, experienced, players who tested the map with crowds, online have reaffirmed my thinking). The thing is, a powerful weapon is like a magnet, and when placed properly, can really draw people to the areas of a map that otherwise offer no real reason to traverse. Such was the case with this swamp area. I felt it was such a cool spot, but also out of the 'flow' of the map.

The rpg focuses and draws the gameplay into this area, now making it very valuable. It also has distinct disadvantages: very open, explosive barrels, hard to escape, no ammo to back up the initial rpg stock. It's a very hard area to hold also, and you get picked apart fairly quickly if trying to camp it. It also gives new players a very distinct goal that is fairly easy to find and recognize.

Also, there is a distinct flip-side to placing a powerful weapon in a difficult place to acquire. The experienced player is going to have no trouble reaching it, whereas it will be twice as hard for the noobs, and twice as easy for the experienced player to camp/control.

---

• Orpheus suggestion to fill in the small 'gap' in the wall.

You are so right about that - there is no way it would exist in reality; it has no real functionality. But...mmm, I so love it. I tried to dress it up a little with beams and pipes, to make it seem more functional. I just couldn't resist leaving it (for now at least), as it offers such a nice sneak attack on players using that health charger. It's also a good spot to hide little items. I don't know why I am so attached to this crack. I think it's because just a few extra layers of almost meaningless connectivity, is just the kind of thing that reward people who learn the maps. It's a 'hehe, that was cool' moment that can be little gems when playing. When I weigh this against 'reality', reality loses.

Allow me this crack, that's all I ask.

---

• Keved suggestion to add some stairs to the recessed area by shield charger, and clip stairs for smoother traversal.

Well, I agree that you sort of get cornered in that little area and stairs would make tha a non-issue. I honestly left if as-is, just for that reason. Being a hardcore DM player, the duck-jump has become totally second nature. It's one of those little skills that you have to master. To me there is real satisfaction and reward for out maneuvering another player, and although I don't want to 'force' players to use it for normal traversal of the map/route. I do like to incorporate it, when it feels appropriate. To me, that little spot offers a min-risk/reward scenario. It's a somewhat tight spot, and going down there for the shield charger makes you just a tad more vulnerable. The reward just a little sweeter when you are good enough to quickly pop right out and whoop some ass.

As for clipping the stairs, I will try it to see how it feels, but I wonder if 'not' having any jarring when using stairs is going to feel stranger than actually having it. You also get the weird 'standing on air' when looking at other player standing on clip brushes. Like I said, though, maybe this is actually a good idea - I will certainly see how it feels.

---

I think that's about it. Just about everything else mentioned has been used to make this map better. I sincerely appreciate the help.

my son and i fragged this map for about 1.5 hours tonight. i found almost no advantage for the RPG in this map at all, so location doesn't hurt IMO, in this case. so yeah, you are right. leave it.

i found however that you have suit charger power-up items, right next to suit power-up machines. you should scatter these a bit more.

i think you need a few more MP5 contact grenades though. the problem is, the blend in with the textures so well you can overlook them, even when standing right next to them sometimes.. worse when running by.

needless to say, we loved the map. we fragged till i just got tired of dying. ( he plays so much better than i)

as i said, i think item placement needs looked at. by more than i, but looked at.

i also played this map for the first time on all "high" settings.. its real purdy.

You're right about the grenades being hard to see. The only thing I can think, is to put them in very memorable spots.

I have added at least 1 since last version, but I will probably add 1 more. I got alot of feedback from people who have played b1 on public servers and everyone seemed to think weapon balance was ok, (as far as where the powerful weapons were and such), but it possibly needed a few more shottys and grenades - so you're observations are correct.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Finger</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>As for clipping the stairs, I will try it to see how it feels, but I wonder if 'not' having any jarring when using stairs is going to feel stranger than actually having it. You also get the weird 'standing on air' when looking at other player standing on clip brushes. Like I said, though, maybe this is actually a good idea - I will certainly see how it feels.</DIV></DIV>
Finger, if you'd like to first see how player clips on staircases & steps feels before spending an hour or two putting them in, I have them in NP_Refinery beta 7. http://www.snarkpit.com/maps.php?map=1654

I would like to see this map in the server rotation. when is it expected to be completed finger?

are you awaiting another critique or something?

personally, i would like all the valve maps replaced eventually. the internet doesn't need another server running them. :rolleyes:

Orph, the map is pretty much finished. I just need to take 1 last look, then send it out the door....something I've been meaning to do this week.

Well then I must say, its been a pleasure working with you on one of your creations.. again :smile:

maps that turn out like this.. well you know what i mean. even though my contributions this time were sparse, i am still honored to be a part.

next time, catch me sooner, like you did with palace, that way i feel better. kinda like i actually helped or did something you could use. :biggrin:

Well, here she is. I could nit-pick the map forever, but at some point it has to go out the door. I'm happy with it, but only because the great feedback I got helped me push it further. I hope some of ya's manage to get a few fun minutes with her.

Much thanks to the Pit, especially: orpheus, reno, keved, and everyone else who responded (good or bad) to the map.

Enjoy.

http://www.duncanmoore.org/swamplight/dm_swamplight.zip

whispers to finger

slow down my young padawan. use a spell checker, you misspelled the name of your own map in the readme

Heh heh someone has been eating too many paranoid mushrooms!

I always suspected I was a flawed human - now I know. :razz: