Russian School Siege

Appearantly, Russian Forces sieged the building.

Children were running away (in their underwear !) from the building and
the hostage takers shot them down on the street. I just can't imagine
this is happening. How can you shoot down a couple of 4 year olds ... running for freedom ... ?

A part of the roof came down, too, at least 100 dead inside, and 400
heavily wounded ... and there are still hostage takers left in the
basement ... and they have more children.

Why are there so many friggin civilians running around there ? Just
watch those small pieces of video CNN is getting through ... it looks
so chaotic ... :sad:

Wow, if that is true things have become even worse through the day :sad:
Earlier this afternoon I was watching the coverage and they were
speaking about having 5 dead or something - hundreds now?! Its sick
that anybody could target children as their hostages.

In defence of the russian's, while force is their usual attitude to
terrorists, their hand was forced this time around it seems. Apparently
a few children tried to escape and somehow triggered an explosion, at
which point the russians had no choice but to move in.

You can't blame the russians for how it has turned out like ReNo says,
when so many people are being held by so few, and they are children the
situation is bound to be unpredictable and unstable :/ any western
nation would have faced the same difficulties resolving the horrible
situation

the hostage takers as well would have been on edge.. from the footage i
have seen and the reports off the radio, it seems a handful of children
panicked after the deal to remove bodies was struck, causing the
hostage takers to panic as well.. the tragedy kind of unfolds from
there i guess :sad:

i think as it stands force, there were about 400 hostages, up to (not confirmed) 100 of whom may be dead, probably more.

what makes it even worse is f**kwit george bush claiming to be winning
the war on terrorism on the very same day :/ what an arsehole

Any chance of a link to an article, since American news tends to be "filtered" a little. But from what I can gather the numbers were more than 100 were killed and 200 hospitalized, not to repeat what Gwil said....

http://www.reuters.com/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm

and as much as it pains me to say it after this awful series of events..

How can you shoot down a couple of 4 year olds ... running for freedom ... ?

how can the russian (or old soviet) forces justify flattening grozny
with shells, which also basically amounts to indiscrimate killing.
these people are insane already, they have the "drive" inside them to
kill whoever dares defy them, child or otherwise :/

you can't apply reasonable moral standards to terrorists..

After the two plane bombings, the subway bombings, and this, I think Chechnya has earned itself a good flattening. I fail to see how they think these actions will help them gain independence or the support of other nations.

And Gwil, I think it can be safely assumed that Bush was saying that the US is safer today than before and that the US is winning the war on terror for itself. It'd be a bit of a stretch to say "No, we aren't winning the war on terror because a decade-long seperatist movement has decided to use terror tactics against Russia." and it would be an even bigger stretch for the US to intervene on behalf of the Russians in Chechnya...

i know what he meant Yak_Fighter, but he still inappropriately uses
blanket terms and holds an air of gusto about terrorism (the "new"
(read, new to america, not everyone else) threat to the world, not just
the US.

All i'm saying is, he could have chosen his words a little more wisely
in the light of the global situation, which can hardly be described as
being "won". The man is a complete ass and a liability for world peace.

And by the way, the chechen conflict is MUCH longer than a decade
if we're going to go into an anal facts debate.. about 150 years to be
precise.

"I think Chechnya has earned itself a good flattening". that's already
been and gone - recall Yeltsin, at all? and probably KGB/NKVD etc etc
security agency opression over the communist years.

hitting terrorists with brute force and unsubtle approaches does not
achieve anything Yak, it only opens the can of worms further (see;
Iraq, Iran, Spain, Russia, Bali etc etc). i don't condone the
terrorists actions (chechen separatists or otherwise), but i also on
the same hand don't follow the solely militaristic methods of
eliminating terrorism, a) because it doesnt work b) its just as bad as
being a suicide bomber yourself.

oh and

"and it would be an even bigger stretch for the US to intervene on behalf of the Russians in Chechnya..."

the United States has no quarm in intervening wherever it so pleases
Yak, it's just it only chooses to when it has vested
militaristic/strategic/economic interests there ^_^ US special forces
could have probably handled the situation with much more efficiency,
but an offer of assistance to a belated, undertrained and underfunded
Russian army was never forthcoming - not now, or before following the
Moscow theatre siege.

I know it is also not the administration or, the american nations duty
to offer, but when george bush has put himself in the role of global
policeman and "upholder of civilisation/freedom/liberty/other such
meaningless rhetoric", he makes himself an obligation to help these
countries.

after all, he said he would... ^_^

Shortly after the news broke Bush rushed to Putin's side
offering any and all help from the US. The Russians could've asked for
US Special Forces to help, but didn't. Do not be quick to blame the US
when we can look back into the history of Russians and see their
psychological motives. For instance they're stubborn. They'd rather
have themselves do something half ass than share success by looking
elsewhere for assistance. They take iron fists rather than stealthly
judo chops like ninja's. Look at the Soviet Union's tactics.
Furthermore Russia has made it quite clear that chechnya is THEIR
problem. They want to fix it and squash the seperatists rebellion.

After seeing how it is the US who holds back the
North Korean Army's at bay, US troops that tried to stop slaughter in
Somalia, US that stepped in to Lyberia, US that tried to help end
Sudan's Civil War and bring them piece, US that stepped in During
Vietnam war and stop the conquering NOT liberating North vietnamese
army I find it QUITE unbelievable that the US ethics only allow us to
use our role when it benefits us. For those of you who hate US blindly,
keep it to yourselves.

I wasn't blaming the US for the crisis. Find me an instance where I
was. In fact, i can remember one of my own quotes blaming the Russians
for it as well. This more or less agrees with your idea that Russia are
to blame.

After seeing how it is the US who holds back the
North Korean Army's at bay, US troops that tried to stop slaughter in
Somalia, US that stepped in to Lyberia, US that tried to help end
Sudan's Civil War and bring them piece, US that stepped in During
Vietnam war and stop the conquering NOT liberating North vietnamese
army I find it QUITE unbelievable that the US ethics only allow us to
use our role when it benefits us. For those of you who hate US blindly,
keep it to yourselves.

See also Honduras, Guatamala, Cuba, (in fact most of Latin America).
See Israel, and the Palestine question. See the Caribbean, and South
east Asia (you cite this, but most of the US operations were performed
under their all consuming and logic defying "democractic"
anti-Communist doctrine). See Afghanistan, and Iraq. See Iran, see
weapons sales and trade deals, see exportation of culture with no
regard for peoples beliefs. Two sides to every coin, Ferret. The US has
backed massacres (funded and supplied the guns for them as it happens),
illegal regimes.. and even armed people who it went on to fight.

Oh, see also "fascism" and "freedom of speech" - "or those of you who hate US blindly,
keep it to yourselves."

Edit - either way, this thread isnt about that - my point was this

George Bush should have thought more carefully about his wording, or
happy attitude towards terrorism when this was happening in Russia.
Whether it is their national problem or not, he cannot claim to be
winning the war on terrorism (which, incidentally the rest of the world
has been dealing with for years), for he is not.

America isn't a bad place, it just has a problem every so often where a halfwit nationalist/militaristic moron gets into power.

So yeah, basically some kids tried to escape which set it all off, or something.

Though I think the level or organisation of the Russian Army was appalling- 13 or so captors though to have escaped; 2 tried to escape but were caught by the angry mob first and beaten to death; civilians running around inside the school compound. I'm sure that Putin will just sack a couple of commanders for it, and let more atrocities occur in Chechnya due to his apparently inept army.

inept? i thought it was more along the lines of "underfunded/untrained conscripts" ? :/

i dont think anything could have avoided the terrorists shooting
fleeing children, but yeah... absolutely shocking that people could
escape (why wasn't the place surrounded/roads blocked ?)..

This made things a bit clearer for me:

1.



2.



3.



4.

It's times like these when I find it hard not to spam internet forums saying, "LETS NUKE CHECHNYA TO GLASS!" like so many others. How the f**k can you claim your cause is righteous when you shoot four year olds?

i read that the hostage takers took clothes off the hostages to wear, get out, mingle with the crowd and escape. so why are most of the people missing clothes?

It's times like these when I find it hard not to spam internet
forums saying, "LETS NUKE CHECHNYA TO GLASS!" like so many others. How
the f**k can you claim your cause is righteous when you shoot four year
olds?

because in parts of the koran it talks about god being vengeful to
sinners and their babes. So radicals like these f**kers think its ok to
kill 4 year olds, steal their clothes, and try to slink away.

Cassius said:
It's times like these when I find it hard not to spam internet forums saying, "LETS NUKE CHECHNYA TO GLASS!" like so many others. How the f**k can you claim your cause is righteous when you shoot four year olds?

BAH! Quotes like these are the reason people DO continue to hate blindly and kill! As in any terrorist situation, it is ONLY THE EXTREMISTS who are responsible. Do you see every Chechyan civilian randomly kidnapping Russians? NO! The Chechyans themselves are not to blame - those psychos who claim to represent them are.

To me, this is exactly like the Israel/Palestine situation. One country gives a bunch of civilians a hard time, a few people crack and start killing. The Russian army shelling cities was an arse of a thing to do, which solved no problems and caused many. The same goes for Israel's wall policy, their bombing of "suspected terrorist hideouts" (including a completely innocent wedding), their frequent death-sentencing without trial...

Also, you must not blame a particular country for its actions - blame the current leader. Bush is an asshole - Americans are not. Well, not all, anyway. Must I point out that nearly everything on the "good things Yanks have done" list occurred under another leader, as opposed to the CURRENT support of Israel's plans (which go directly against the "Road Map to Peace")?

Diarmaidx2 said:
i read that the hostage takers took clothes off the hostages to wear, get out, mingle with the crowd and escape. so why are most of the people missing clothes?

The hostages were kept in very crowded conditions and denied food and water. They were hot.

Personally I think the whole situation is horrible, but at the same time I don't think simply killing off the resistance or locking them all up is going to make the problem go away.

Lets remember that the russians didn't storm it out of choice, they did
it when an attempt to gather dead bodies lead to escaping of hostages
and the captuerers shooting children in the back. THAT is sickening.

JFry said:
Personally I think the whole situation is horrible, but at the same time I don't think simply killing off the resistance or locking them all up is going to make the problem go away.

Well, if they did kill every citizen of Chechnya then there would be no one to resist, now would there? :razz:

Once the Chechans went from fighting a revolutionary battle to just doing random terrorist acts they lost all legitimacy in my eyes, and there is no rationalization that can be used for their actions in this situation. I don't care how many kids the Russians indiscriminately killed when they shelled Grozny, that doesn't give the Chechans a blank check to actually target Russian children in a school. All that gives them is the right to shell the Russians right back. At this point I wouldn't shed a tear if the Russians wiped them all out, because this is going to continue unabated until one side completely destroys the other, especially if the Chechans continue to commit terrorist acts instead of actually fighting on the battlefield.

<DIV>What, Yak? You too?</DIV>
<DIV>See mine previous post...</DIV>

I saw it, and just like in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict the extremists are the ones talking and setting the agenda. The silence of the civilians/moderates in rebuking the tactics of the extremists means that they support their actions and aren't going to work to stop them. If the extremists weren't speaking for the people then the people should rise up and denounce them. Their silence speaks volumes about their position on the matter. I'd be willing to bet that the average Chechan thinks that this is great and that they've finally stuck it to those nasty Russians and support the terrorists.

<DIV>I know Jamie wants to kill me. Because you haven't said anything on the matter, evidently you want to kill me too. Therefore, I must kill you. And your family.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also, what are the Palestinians going to spend their very limited press time talking about - denouncing terrorists, or asking for someone to stop the Isralis killing them.</DIV>

It sure seems the Palestinians spend all of their presstime talking about how great Hamas is and how much of an honor it is to blow themselves up in cafes.

If the majority of the people didn't want these terrorists committing their acts they would be stopped, simple as that.

i read that the hostage takers took clothes off the hostages to
wear, get out, mingle with the crowd and escape. so why are most of the
people missing clothes?

Most people are missing clothes because it was so warm in the gym. Bear
in mind the terrorists refused to accept food and water for the
hostages, so many hostages would have been dehydrated and needed to cool down.

Now, dont get me wrong here, its pretty bad that children did get killed and the rest are emotionally scarred for life... but, these terrorists are doing a great job of drawing attention to the Chechnya situation. Heard barely anything out of there until that theatre got taken hostage. Taking children as hostages, as evil as it is, was a very effective strategy. Chances are theyll keep doing things like this, now that they know hostage-taking gets the worlds attention more than blowing up airliners or bombing subway stations.

Ok, it may get the world's attention, but not it's sympathy. As Cassius mentioned, someone who's shooting 4-year olds can't claim his cause righteous.

Yeah, great. How wonderful are the terrorists for their ingenuity and brilliant strategy which has now made them famous for shooting little girls and boys! Brilliant!

How do you suppose world-wide media coverage is actually going to help this group of idiots? If anything, it spells their certain doom. Now there is more common knowledge of these particular terrorists, as well as greater desire to put them out of business. Unless, of course, you are a terrorist yourself.

wil5on said:
Taking children as hostages, as evil as it is, was a very effective strategy.

Effective at what? Pissing people off?

Exactly. Look at what theyre doing, theyre obviously trying to get attention. They got it. Everyones pissed off at them, but at least people know about them.

I'm not saying what theyre doing will neccessarily help their cause, but if you want attention (and dont care about looking like assholes) this is the way to do it.