U.S. Election

screw the intelligent man...

Na, that'll never happen :heee:

Seriously though, nobody here has any respect for a clever person at any level. If you are clever, you are an 'egghead', if you are old and clever you are either crazy or lonely, and are an egghead as well. The people who get the most respect are the ones who aren't that clever, but manage to blag their way through things.i think the best learning enviroment is a competetive one, and this also restores the value of somebody who actually knows what they are doing.

Right now, it's all 'if you tried hard, you did well', and 'nobody won or lost as long as we all reached our individual targets'. Well I'm sorry, but that's a heap of crap. Since when is the real world anything like this? In the real world, if you can't do something fast or well enough, your out of there.

So my proposed system is a competetive learning enviroment, where people try harder to learn, because if they get a better grade, they have beaten some other guy. Every kid likes to win, and the real world is a competative place, so this system gets them used to it :smile:

competitions can lead to animosities though.. kids learn at different rates.. but kids are also the cruelest people on the face of the earth.. mostly cause their parents fail to instill proper manners when it comes to dealing with life.

you may have 5 kids who eventually all reach the exact same level of development, but it took them five different times to reach it.. but mark me, the last couple, they had to deal with taunts that made them different in the end.. they know just as much, but their dispositions were altered by the faster kids.

competition can work, but it has to be monitored stringently.

I know it sounds like I'm some kind of nutter, but to be honest I see there is no such thing as democracy, it's an elaborate hoax designed to give people the false illusion that they are in control of their lives.

Presidents are not elected by ballot, they are selected by bloodline.

Lep is absolutely right, home school doesn't work for everyone, and I'm certainly not a genius. I had plenty of home-schooled friends who were having a bad time of it. mostly because their parents didn't have the right character for the job. however, I don't really think you can make the case that the public schools are "working". I agree that they are better than nothing, but that's all Ill give.

I don't know about England, but over here one of the root problems is what the schools were designed to do. At their inception public schools were intentionally designed to produce docile workers for factories and such, with only a handful of students going on to higher education. That may have made sense in the late 19th and early 20th century, but it certainly doesn't anymore. There simply are no longer jobs in America for "docile workers" yet our education system still turns them out in droves.

Jeff - I don't think cut-throat competition is the way to go, but I also agree with you that all this BS about building self esteem is just terrible. I had a speech teacher in college (public speaking) who told us on the first day that he saw it as his mission to tear down all those lovely false impressions we presumably had of ourselves. I think he was about the harshest teacher I ever had. It was great fun.

I think maybe the competitive element shouldn't be added until high-school or college age. By that time most people are mature enough to avoid gratuitous taunting. I had one teacher in college who sent out grading emails that listed our class-rank. It was great fun. we never did it but the idea the class had was that we should get t-shirts with our rank printed on them, and just switch around after every exam.

minor competitions work wonders, as long as the prizes, are not to extravagant..

we had spelling bee's and math bee's in grade school.. they were serious moral boosters.. i would like to see more of those return..

We should totally have a reality show called, "The Teachers Pet", where kids are eliminated week by week by failing assignments, the winning kid gets a paid college tuition ... and $3 million in cash.

"Tune in this fall to FOX to see who will be ... THE TEACHER'S PET"

That show couldn't work, Crono. You give a kid $3 million dollars, what's the point of them going to college? If I had $3 million, I think what comes to my mind is buying lots of 70s automobiles and a big house.

One of the problems with competitions and prizes is that kids will begin thinking that for every thing they do they deserve a prize. Also classroom competitions for rank involves individuals competing against others. After doing this for a while it will eventually become harder for them to work at a job where teamwork is essential (game design).

Spartan 34 said:
One of the problems with competitions and prizes is that kids will begin thinking that for every thing they do they deserve a prize. Also classroom competitions for rank involves individuals competing against others. After doing this for a while it will eventually become harder for them to work at a job where teamwork is essential (game design).

very good point, i agree whole heartedly, but.. if the teachers clearly define the goals and objectives, this can be avoided.. teamwork can involve competition as well.

[edit] a good example is the military, they praise team work, but doing so as individuals.. (i hope that made sense)

Orpheus said:
very good point, i agree whole heartedly, but.. if the teachers clearly define the goals and objectives, this can be avoided.. teamwork can involve competition as well.

[edit] a good example is the military, they praise team work, but doing so as individuals.. (i hope that made sense)

Knowing many American teachers they will probably screw it up. The only thing they are use to doing is giving homework over a projector.

I never really understood their moto "An Army of One". An army is not made up of a single person but a large group that works together and relies on one another to win a fight. Now as for Master Chief and Gordan Freeman, they are what I consider an army of one.

i liked it better as "be all you can be" this army of one crap stinks of individualism.. i am old fashion i guess.. still teamwork through individual actions is a good thing.

way to go sarcasm font :rolleyes:

go bush

Stick them both in a looked room with a gun with one bullet. That would be sweet. :biggrin:

Yeah ... "Saw" is going to kick ass ...

(Check your spelling on "locked")

i bet Bush will be the first to shoot.

By the way, I'm just curious. But who saw Bush's rally the other day?

Orpheus said:
so, all your anger at me was based upon a misunderstanding, in spite of me repeatedly telling you that you would be surprised.. but.. i wanted cash's input before i said anything, because i felt it may have either supported my claim, or because he lives elsewhere, he might have said he had heard such rumors..

I'm going to say something, and I really, really don't want you to take offense - it is not fun reading a page of you demanding Gwil to apologize to you. I'm not in such a wired capacity as I was while at college, and therefore, I'm a bit pickier in what I do spend my online time on. If someone "wrongs" you, you can prove yourself the bigger man by not losing sleep/forum space over it. Moving on and never touching that subject again...

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I never really understood their moto "An Army of One". An army is not made up of a single person but a large group that works together and relies on one another to win a fight.

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My impression with the slogan was that everyone has a special task that is a lot more involved and interesting than "marching with a gun and shooting s**t." I think one negative stereotype of those in the army is that they are faceless, interchangeable peons set to do battle. By becoming specific with the positions available (notice how every commercial highlights just one specific military vocation), they hope the army becomes more attractive to potential candidates. I don't think it has anything to do with becoming Rambo.

Onto the main event: education.

Many of you seem to be big fans of home schooling. My opinion is that home schooling is built on perfectly understandable reasons, but that a vast majority of parents will never be able to pull it off at anywhere near ideal level. For one thing, I can't see how it would possibly work in a single-parent household. Someone's gotta make money somehow, and five year olds shouldn't be left to fend for themselves. Split families are becoming more and more common, and the lower down the economic ladder you go, the more stressful the situation is. It is not at all presumptuous to say that a fair quotient of children attending elementary school come from split homes and are either fought over or ignored entirely. Simply put: these children are not candidates for homeschooling. Should they be denied the right to education? Hell no. And there they are, public schools, just waiting to learn them something.

But, and here's the problem, curriculum has become very fastened to standardized testing. Things like the No Child Left Behind have led school to become a process for passing the standardized tests. Schools are on thin ground if they have low test scores. Therefore, a larger portion of the class time has become pointed towards passing these tests - and not on say, actually learning or class interaction.

When I say educational systems need money, I am not saying they need more computers. Not at all. Frankly, I'm not sure how the myth that a school with more computers is better got started.

Schools are financed locally, and thus the schools lower down the economic ladder are constantly short-changed. Interactive programs, such as music, gym and art classes become more limited, and are often scrapped from the budget. Judging from the arguments of the proponents of home-schooling, these would be the most important courses in a public school's catalogue. Another reason schools need money is to create a more competitive job market for teachers. Too many things leave poor teachers around, such as tenure, teacher education costs, and the all-around poor pay. Barring illegal or unethical activity, terminations are almost always judged on a basis of seniority. As I described earlier, performance is bizarrely judged simply as a result of standardized tests. The barriers to entry are very high, and therefore less flow of new teachers occurs. Older teachers may become tired of the whole thing and start to fulfill their duties half-assed (or sixtyfourth-assed). Suddenly, they actually have the tenure and a decent amount of income; they're not leaving for a career elsewhere.

The thing is, neither candidate truly wants to make any dramatic changes to our current economic system. They just want to look good in the press, and having enlightened-sounding programs (No Child Left Behind) actually does that. I could talk more and more but I think I'll just stop by saying I think Bush has been a step in the wrong direction for our education system.

Given what you've said about NCLB (No Child etc.) I'll certainly agree with that last statement.

I agree with your estimation that improving pay and competition in the teaching would be the most effective way of improving education. College professors tend to be of a high standard because. A) It is difficult to obtain a PhD in the first place, and B) there is a great deal of competition for professorships. This is in spite of the fact that they get paid very little compared with their peers who work in industry. The public education system could certainly benefit form emulating some of this model. It's very bazaar that we pay teachers so little when so much of our future depends on them.

While I wish every child could have the oppertunities I did growing up, I never meant to insinuate that we should abolish public schooling.

Cash, perhaps i can clarify.. when i type in here, i type as if the person was in my living room, i wouldn't say anything different in here i wouldn't say at home.. with the only difference being, text fails to convey as well as words associated with facial expressions.. i have never in my life, been as often misunderstood as i am in this forum.. that may be due to text, or it may be due to us coming from so broad a back ground, i am as yet unsure.. but one thing is sure, i talk to people in here the same.

on that note, i expect people to talk to me with the same courtesy, no one would ever consider talking to me in any other way if they were here, well they might for a few minutes but before it was over, they would be talking with courtesy in mind.

courtesy dictates, that one apologize whenever its prudent to do so, usually associated for a grievous error.. true, in real life that rarely occurs.. i have seen to many cases where the infraction went without one ever materializing..

but in my case, you will notice, that in every case where i was convinced i made a mistake, i don't hesitate a moment to apologize.. course, some people would wonder about the times i don't realize it, but see, thats their negativity.. the problem is not wanting, or demanding an apology, its having to do it.. the person who neglects to do so is the one truly with a problem.. if i am wronged, it doesn't get worse, or better for me, if the person fails to say they are sorry, shoot its no skin off my back at all.. but it royally screws up their position or reputations, and in a text based atmosphere, your reputation is everything.. we all live miles apart, its not as if i could smack you in the back of the head whenever you put your foot in your mouths.. no more so that you could with me in return.

bottomline, i will always expect to hear "I'm sorry" i may not get it, but i am not the one looking bad so i am, if not happy, i am very content you be so.

for the record though cash, i have never thought bad of you for speaking your mind, asking me not to get offended, makes me sad.. i was not under the impression i had to be handled with "kids gloves" .. i thought you could talk to me.. like an adult :sad:

What I really meant by "don't take offense" was "don't respond longwindedly - this is such a stupid subject to talk about." Eh, seems I was too late for that.. :razz:

BTW Leperous,
I can't seem to find a smilie selector in the quick reply box. Worth adding?

standardised testing! needless, and seemingly constant use of exams to
assess, and improve our childrens education! thats the key idea Cash,
the idea which is in essence, at the root of all modern educational
evils.

Cash Car Star said:
What I really meant by "don't take offense" was "don't respond longwindedly - this is such a stupid subject to talk about." Eh, seems I was too late for that.. :razz:

i will have to add "Long winded" to my definition of "no offense"

thanx for updating my database cash.. still though, my long winded reply, is true.. i hope you could have touched on its high points :smile:

here i will edit it

? posted by Orpheus

Cash, perhaps i can clarify.. when i type..

..

like an adult :sad:

..

I just read somewhere that all of the companies that make electronic voting machines in the US have donated money to both major parties... Hmm, I guess we should just trust them then! And apparently the only ones that come with printed backups built in are UK-made...

i know i should just abstain from commentary ate this point, but man, you guys are making it damn tough...........grrr.. i spose ill sleep on it.....

Doc B... :dodgy:

Dr Brasso said:
i know i should just abstain from commentary ate this point, but man, you guys are making it damn tough...........grrr.. i spose ill sleep on it.....

Doc B... :dodgy:

you know doc, it is entirely possible to have an opinion without naming one single member of the snarkpit :dodgy:

seriously though, i think everyone would like to hear an educated opinion from an older person on politics.. everyone knows i have no real knowledge on the topic, other than what i see of course... say whatever you like, just leave all the names or quotes out :heee:

I'm sad you're getting angry at something which is actually quite important; what would happen if you found the electronic vote casting machines to be flawed in some way and perhaps biasing results towards a certain party? Am I talking out of my arse, and if so why? Surely you want your election to be as free and fair as possible?! Don't make us send in the EU/UN election monitors

Over here, we recently had some problem with postal ballots and there were accusations of forgery and that it was more of a ploy to get people to vote Labour somehow... We're still a long way away from voting-from-home, but until then I think we need to have vote boxes as fair as possible, with printed backups, otherwise it wouldn't be hard for a company to (further) influence who's in the White House...

Lep, there are 13 pages here, i am betting Doc was not thinking of you and voting machines :wink:

methinks thou do think to highly of thyself

Heh, well maybe it touched a nerve and he's working for them :razz:

tis entirely possible Lep.. but the voting machine incident was restricted to a smallish portion of the last election.. if i had to say, and judging from what i know about doc, he is upset that people are supporting kerry.. kerry does NOT appeal to us older types.. kerry is evil incarnate to our views.. but, i am only guessing.. i have not talked to doc about this, i could be very wrong.

I can't imagine how you think Kerry is "evil incarnate"; please elaborate? To us Europeans Bush seems "evil incarnate" as it seems he is stoking the fires of terrorism more than anything positive, among other things :/

Leperous said:
I can't imagine how you think Kerry is "evil incarnate"; please elaborate? To us Europeans Bush seems "evil incarnate" as it seems he is stoking the fires of terrorism more than anything positive, among other things :/

i cannot, or will not.. maybe someone can, but think of my narrow views, and think of kerry's broad endeavors, and you may be able to work it out without my saying a word..

true, i can only go by what i have heard from others via word of mouth, but no one i have talked to supports kerry.. BUT and i stress this word.. BUT so many are tired of bush, that they are willing to swap evils.

for the record, i know what you are thinking.. its not just gay issues lep, but they do play a role, but its not a vital one.

allow me to say this again, i am going by what i hear, with my own ears.. not what i read.

Leperous said:
I just read somewhere that all of the companies that make electronic voting machines in the US have donated money to both major parties... Hmm, I guess we should just trust them then! And apparently the only ones that come with printed backups built in are UK-made...

In response to this outrage, I have created this image:

Orpheus said:
i cannot, or will not.. maybe someone can, but think of my narrow views, and think of kerry's broad endeavors, and you may be able to work it out without my saying a word..

true, i can only go by what i have heard from others via word of mouth, but no one i have talked to supports kerry.. BUT and i stress this word.. BUT so many are tired of bush, that they are willing to swap evils.

for the record, i know what you are thinking.. its not just gay issues lep, but they do play a role, but its not a vital one.

allow me to say this again, i am going by what i hear, with my own ears.. not what i read.

I'm sorry? Does that mean you're making your decisions totally based on other's opinions and not on any facts of their campaigns or pasts???

Crono said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
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i cannot, or will not.. maybe someone can, but think of my narrow views, and think of kerry's broad endeavors, and you may be able to work it out without my saying a word..

true, i can only go by what i have heard from others via word of mouth, but no one i have talked to supports kerry.. BUT and i stress this word.. BUT so many are tired of bush, that they are willing to swap evils.

for the record, i know what you are thinking.. its not just gay issues lep, but they do play a role, but its not a vital one.

allow me to say this again, i am going by what i hear, with my own ears.. not what i read.
</DIV></DIV>

I'm sorry? Does that mean you're making your decisions totally based on other's opinions and not on any facts of their campaigns or pasts???

Orph isn't voting. He's already said that. But really, it shouldn't surprise you that most Americans will be making their decision on the basis of personal prejudice and not on the issues. That is true on both sides.

As for the voting machine issue... Lep is totally right. This is an extremely important topic, but I just don't know enough about it to comment at any great length. In Oregon, all ballots are vote-by-mail, which seems like an excellent solution to me. I truly didn't understand the debate about "hanging chads" four years ago. I figure, if you are too dumb or senile to properly fill out the ballot, then you are probably incapable of making a reasonable decision on who to vote for. I realize that this is a bad attitude in the long term, as it opens the door to "test ballots" that could be made intentionally difficult for certain demographics, but in situations like the one in florida... I say f**k the ambiguous votes. In light of this view, I honestly see no reason to change our system. It has worked for many years, and I don't think you can make electronic systems hack-proof.

That's not true ... not all ballots are vote by mail here, TB.
It's just easier and safer that way.

Note that isn't directed at Tracer or Hugh:
apparently for awhile certain people who work as volunteers in some voting places have thrown away certain people's ballots or registration forms.

Really? I didn't know there was a polling place.

They're usually volunteer ran open houses in churches and schools and other areas like that. However, it's obviously safer/easier to just mail the bastard.

Yeah. I can't believe these people were willing to give their ballots without demanding party identification of some sort.

I wanted to kick that guy in the balls that was at pioneer place who was only taking republican registration. He refused to take anyone elses ... which of course is a felony.

Maybe he didn't want to take them for the liability issues that have now arised? If he was a direct representative of the Republican party, anyway.

It doesn't matter ... it's illegal to do that and he was confronted with that. He claimed he didn't know that was illegal.

There's a whole bunch of backdoor s**t that goes on though. It's really annoying.

Ergh, could you explain this guy some more? I'm confused as to what he did that was illegal. Was this one of the polling places? Since then that'd be weird, but otherwise, yeah, confuzled.

If you're a volunteer who turns in registration ballots. As in people who are registering to vote. You MUST accept ALL ballots. It is illegal not to.

That's like saying, all the mail from Washington County wont be sent by Multinomah County can send mail just fine. It isn't fair.

I guess, something people have done a lot who are out and about in Portland getting register-ers will not say anything to you. The specific guy I'm talking about would tell people, "I'm sorry, I don't accept registration from Democrats."
However, there are people who will look at your registration once you're gone, if you signed up as a differernt party then them, they'll throw your registration in the garbage. Meaning, you would not be allowed to vote, since you thought you registered but they threw it away and never filed it.

I don't understand how you don't see how that is illegal ...

Case in point. Register and vote through the mail. Earlier I just mentioned that there are actually places you can physically go and vote or drop your ballot off at. It's just that, with the mail, if it is violated, right there there are two felonies: Opening someone elses mail and f**king with someone elses ballot, I don't remember official names ... obviously.

Crono said:
I'm sorry? Does that mean you're making your decisions totally based on other's opinions and not on any facts of their campaigns or pasts???

crono, i am sleepy cause i just got up so i am not getting into a debate on justifying ones belief systems.. but, i come from a state, or area if you like that believes in what we see, not what we are told.. we see high gas, we see low school attendances, we see starving people, we see... now it may or may not pertain to the presidential election, but what i am saying is, this is how most of us decide.. we see bush is evil, we see kerry is more so, mind you now, kerry has not been president yet, but we see that guns are going to stay, we see that gays are not going to be married, we see..

as ignorant as that may be, it is how things are done.. and i hate to say this, but since i drive cross country i hear things from other states as i drive, it seems that it may not be just our way of doing it.. americans tend to do it everywhere, not just here.

lets assume, i am speaking straight out of my ass, and leave it at that..OK?

neither bush, nor kerry are going to take us to a new prosperity.. :sad:

I wasn't intending on starting a debat. The way you said how you make your decisions sounded like you trust other people's opinions, as in their take on laws for example, instead of finding things out for yourself ... that's all I was questioning, because, I'm sorry, that's a terrible way of going about things.

You obviously don't trust my opinions on movies so why would you trust my opinions on politics, for example.

Crono said:
You obviously don't trust my opinions on movies so why would you trust my opinions on politics, for example.

read what you wrote.. examine its content.. what you basically said, is i think you lie..

which is untrue.

what i think of your opinion of movies is, you like them.. someone has to.

my views on other peoples opinions is much broader than you all think.. i may detest your decisions, but i would never consider for a second, that you are not entitled to have them.. basically its like this, if i think you are stupid for doing something, its no more important than you thinking i am arrogant for thinking it.. or vise versa.

i would be willing to bet that there is someone here who thinks i am so full of s**t that it oozes onto the keyboard each day, but guess what? i bet they wouldn't stand right here and say it out loud :biggrin:

basically crono, i respect you more for being different, and being unafraid of doing it.. but remember, respect does not always mean like.. you should never concern yourself with making people like, just respect.

I honestly have never been this confused as to what exactly you're responding to before.

I just pointed out that you shouldn't make political decisions based on OTHER PEOPLE'S opinions and not your own ... THAT'S ALL!

I don't understand how you're able to drag that out into a discussion on how you may respect me, but not like me ...

I didn't even mention anything about decisions, I said opinions, two different things. How in the world did you translate that into what you wrote??

crono, i never said i didn't like you.. come on.. read it as if its in the third person if it makes it more understandable..

and as for my outlook on politics and my sources of acquiring knowledge thereof.. its not your concern :biggrin:

you sure do get confused easy.. /methinks, its because you feel that if someone is talking, it must be about you, if they are talking to you..

try to remember, i make comments in general terms.. unless i say "crono you are an asswipe" do not take it personal if all i say is "most movie critics are strange"

So you telling me to "read what you wrote again" or "what i think of your opinion of movies is, you like them.. someone has to" was not directed at me, but rather at everyone? :razz:

I just asked a simple question ... which I still never got an answer to.

I don't have a problem in which I think people are talking to me all the time. Yet, if you quote me then start using words like "you" and "your", then I would rightfully think you are addressing me.