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Fellow Pitters,

i've been hammering at this one for quite some time now, time for you to pass judgement and give input/feedback :wink:
Bear in mind that i'm at +90% for brushfaces, planes and vertices, so i can't add much, only remove or replace.

gameplay info

download

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

The architecture in that last screenshot looks reminiscent of your competition entry..

Coincidence?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

if you'd check the profile of that competition room you'll see that i already said back then that i would turn that into a full blown FF map :wink:

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

BlisTer said:
if you'd check the profile of that competition room you'll see that i already said back then that i would turn that into a full blown FF map :wink:

God dammit man, I slept once or twice since then, You don't expect much do'ya. :heee:

I'd consider it damned lucky that I recall anything around here Bister.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Looks pretty styled. :smile: Especially the outside looks very impressive. The inside looks more like some basic hallways, but with stylized architecture, but I guess that kinda works for such a map.
You could turn some of those things into models, easier reuse, smaller file, better performance, less limits to worry about, less control over lighting though. Just an idea. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

yeah crisp stylish elements covering simple concrete shapes, to have a kind of renovation feeling, that was the aim :wink:

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

That red-striped-concrete-wall-texture looks a tad overused. Apart from that, it's quite nice looking :smile:

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Very impressive.

I have a problem with the texturing, however. It's too gray and there are big brushes without any structure or something the eye could hold on. That causes some of the rooms to feel a bit empty.

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Why snark works.

thx

hmm, too much red or too much gray? :wink:

also i'm not really sure which room seems a tad empty to you, care to point me to the relevant screenshot? bear in mind that i can't add panels or bars everywhere: not only to keep fps above the fps of the standard hl2dm maps, but i also want a kind of balance between rough (concrete) and crisp (panels/bars).

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

I think it's mainly about texturing, the brushworks seems to have all the detail it will ever need.

I'll try and make a slideshow to illustrate what I meant. That could take a while. But I can say already it's mainly a texturing thing. I think it has something to do with the contrast between the very clean, crisp and the dirty, old, concrete textures. The contrast is either too light or too strong. Nothing wrong with the contrasty theme but it just doesn't feel clear enough yet.

Maybe you could also make the old concrete structure that should be renovated a little torn or asymmetrically structured, a reason for the renovation parts to be there.

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Why snark works.

reaper47 said:
Very impressive.

I have a problem with the texturing, however. It's too gray and there are big brushes without any structure or something the eye could hold on. That causes some of the rooms to feel a bit empty.

Not really. Its the lighting. To harsh.

Not arguing mind Master Reaper, but I like the texturing, a lot.

I said this in many a map, make dark areas dark. Lights tend to shine in the direction they are pointed... You'd not have so much ceiling illuminated in a real sense.

People make rooms with transitions, but forget that light needs them too.

Darken everything to 1/2 its current lumen's, then lets see what you got Blister.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

don't make assumptions Jon :wink:

Orpheus said:
You'd not have so much ceiling illuminated in a real sense

You assume i did not have lightspots directed at some ceilings on purpose. i did. It's to accentuate certain elements. If you'd had a run around in the map to inspect your assumptions closer you would see that every bright lit part has a lamp model facing it for realistic sourcing. We each have our own mapping style, i respect yours. An aspect of mine is that i use harsh contrasting lighting. My intended shadows are dark. I will not reduce overall light intensity, as imo in DM maps, and certainly in FF maps, you need to have clear vision to focuss on gameplay.

i appreciate feedback, i really do. but the fact you guys seem to be cancelling each-others remarks maybe means this is due to my mapping style and those remarks are personal wonderings, instead of general consensus.

And as much i am for discussions about mapping styles, plz continue those in PM :wink:

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

I admit I didn't download the map. My comments are 100% on the screens, which look to be nearly fullbright.

I have no intention of telling you how to map, just my views on how a map should be.

I am not part of your Psyche, so your final intentions are not my privy. I can only throw out suggestions. Its your job to catch them, or let them pass on by.

If Snarkpit has been reduced to curtailing its feedback, in the vain hopes of meeting with the authors idea... Well I don't want to be part of that Snarkpit.

My advice is given out free of charge. Don't ask for payment from me that you need to accept.

/discussion.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

i meant it when i said i appreciate feedback. i'm hanging out my tentacles to be informed of the general consensus for improvements.

i only established that your opinion was about assumptions and about the mapping style rather than the map itself. A discussion about mapping styles is equally as valuable, but would take us too far from the overall consensus about this map itself, and hence can be better discussed in general banter or pm !

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

I willingly admit that my mapping style differs from yours, Blister. But I doubt it's only about style. There's a small detail missing that I think could bring together some bits of the architecture better. The more I think about it the more I could imagine it's simply the floor(ceiling?) texture. The dark-grey one. It looks very, very flat and clean compared to the other textures.

It's really hard to describe what distracts me, because there's so much impressive architecture there already... I even doubt most people will notice what I'm talking about here. It's more a playful way of trying to analyze the (very interesting) visuals. It's fun to try and give feedback on a map by a more experienced mapper. Probably it's painful for you, sorry. <:]

I don't know but I think different tastes/styles is a bit too easy as an explanation.

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Why snark works.

I wasn't trying to sound harsh Blister. I was only clarifying that advice freely given isn't something that should be grudgingly accepted. If anything I say about your map is not within your design intentions, feel free to not use them. However, not being privy to those designs, all I am able to do is throw out anything that comes to me.

I would hope that you'd understand that I meant no ill will. However, I also have no intention of second guessing myself because something I said about your map, fell outside your ambition for it.

IMO, the screenshots need light adjustments. If they do not, then they do not. I am not upset with that.

As for our style's being discussed. My maps have no theme's... If thats a style, its a truly vague one. :sad:

Forget my previous posts about your lights. I was actually disagreeing with Reaper.. Not you.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

no worries Jon, i appreciate your feedback. surely someone else's first impression will be similar as yours. i was just affraid this was going to turn into a mapping style discussion.

Reaper, interesting take about the floor. Personally i don't think it's the flatness or sameness of it. especially since it's varied a lot with normalmapped light-grey tiles or the "pit" in the fr. Nor do i think it's the dark gray color, i think it fits in well. But now that you mention it, it could be the specularity that is too much of a contrast with the unspecular concrete. maybe i was just afraid to have too simple a texture to not use specularity. could it be that ?

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Well, Blister clearly has a more consistent and unique style with his maps than most of us here (including me, of course). :wink:

(In reply to Orpheus)
____________________________________________________

I really don't know, Blister. Maybe try a few changes to said texture and see if it looks better or much worse.

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Why snark works.

I think those greyish flat parts are a nice, easy-on-the-eye contrast to the heavily filled, complex ceilings. It's sort of saying: "Yes, this map has a unique style, and it looks pretty, but here's the route to take, don't get distracted."

I do think Orph makes a good point though, about the lighting and generally, color contrast. It's generally very bright, with too little contrast to break it up. Perhaps that's why I like the brow-greyish floor parts so much, because at least those are a bit darker so they stand out somewhat.
I like the outside, with it's high tower rising up in the night, lit by a few spotlights, but again, I think more contrast could greatly improve the feeling. A darker skybox, a darker top of the tower, with bright spotlights shining up to it... sppoky. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

It looks nice to me, except that it looks... too clean. It looks cleaner than a hospital. Put some trash in there, or have some broken equipment or wires. I think a little trash and wear and tear would do wonders for this map.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

Captain P said:
I think those greyish flat parts are a nice, easy-on-the-eye contrast to the heavily filled, complex ceilings. It's sort of saying: "Yes, this map has a unique style, and it looks pretty, but here's the route to take, don't get distracted."

I do think Orph makes a good point though, about the lighting and generally, color contrast. It's generally very bright, with too little contrast to break it up. Perhaps that's why I like the brow-greyish floor parts so much, because at least those are a bit darker so they stand out somewhat.
I like the outside, with it's high tower rising up in the night, lit by a few spotlights, but again, I think more contrast could greatly improve the feeling. A darker skybox, a darker top of the tower, with bright spotlights shining up to it... sppoky. :smile:

Yep a nightsky is an option. i'll do a night compile and a post a screen here.

Also bear in mind that it's an FF map so i feel the areas where the player can come should be bright to not hinder the (fast) gameplay. That's why i have most of my shadows on the walls or ceilings.

Dark_Kilauea said:
<DIV class=quotetext>It looks nice to me, except that it looks... too clean. It looks cleaner than a hospital. Put some trash in there, or have some broken equipment or wires. I think a little trash and wear and tear would do wonders for this map.</DIV>

I don't really agree that it looks to clean. The panels have a "dirty" spec map and the concrete has a "dirty" normalmap. btw, it's still an FF map.. so i won't add litter :razz:

I do agree that i could add cracks decals to the concrete in some places.

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

This is a picture that Zombieloffe posted that I agree with as to how I envision lights looking in any map. Its a fair representation anyway. I know its not what you want, but its what I had in mind when I was commenting earlier. Sometimes, pictures speak better examples.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Orpheus said:
This is a picture that Zombieloffe posted that I agree with as to how I envision lights looking in any map. Its a fair representation anyway. I know its not what you want, but its what I had in mind when I was commenting earlier. Sometimes, pictures speak better examples.

well there's no question that in most cases it's better with lightspots than with lights. the 2 lightspot above one another, one small one facing the source and a bigger one facing the floor is a well-known trick. The thing is, i use it in most places if you look closely, see the 3rd, 4th and 5th screenshot.

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

I think this is a nicely styled map, but i think you're red lights in the map don't stick out enough.

The whole map is quite blandly lit as far as i can tell from the screenies.

But thinking of old tfc maps they were also always 'well lit' so to speak to make the gameplay maybe a tad better.

conclusion of this sketchy comment: the map looks good but i think you could improve it by tweaking the lighting a bit.

For example in the 4th screenie of the thread, the red lighting near
the walls, could stand out a bit moe if you made the rest of the lights
somewhat dimmer (i think).

Such lighting themes in my opinion ususaly make maps more interesting
to the eye and maybe some what more exiting if you're walking around in
such places, instead of having most of the level have the same well lit
clean feeling to it.

This would also maybe solve some other comments concerning the map looking cleaner than the IC unit in a hospital :smile:

Anyways, think it looks quite interesting ,and since i'm still looking
forward to playing FF i think this map would make a nice addition to
it. keep it up! :smile:

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

This is a picture that Zombieloffe posted that I agree with as to how I envision lights looking in any map. Its a fair representation anyway. I know its not what you want, but its what I had in mind when I was commenting earlier. Sometimes, pictures speak better examples.

You know me, I'm a lighting fetishist, and first I too thought it's all about the lighting. But I don't think that's it. All the tricks in the "GOOD" picture are there. Maybe there could be more cold/warm contrast and a night setting for the outside could bring some brightness contrasts. Maybe the ceilings could be darker...

But there's actually some very nice lighting going on like in this pic or here.

But the texturing is very bright also, so it might be responsible for the brightness.

One more idea: How about trying to make the map more clean, taking a bit of bumpmap contrast from the concrete textures and making the red stripe paint cleaner? I actually always liked the "cleaness" of this style and maybe it gets lost a bit behind the very classic looking concrete. You could still keep the concrete/high tech metal contrast. I think right now the concrete dominates a bit, while probably it should be the clean plates that should dominate.

Yea, just random thoughts. Again, I like this a lot. It's just about the finer details and contrast.

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Why snark works.

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Here's the nightsky version, i think it looks somewhat better and since leagueplay hasnt got fighting in the midfield i think i can get away with it. let me know what you think.

Junkyard God said:
For example in the 4th screenie of the thread, the red lighting near the walls, could stand out a bit moe if you made the rest of the lights somewhat dimmer (i think).

Ok this gave me serious doubts about my monitor settings? The red lights in the 4th screenshot are placed completely in shadow, there isnt one white/yellow light shining on there and stand out great imo. the only whiteness shining on there is from bounces, and since you see those bounces as making the red not stand out, i asked myself if the lights are really too overdone bright. So i did a fast compile of the ramproom with dimmed lights. i also replaced the few lights i had with light_spots. I do agree that it is more athmospheric, but on my monitor this is simply not acceptable for a FF map. This would only suit HL2SP or maybe HL2DM or other slowpaced mods. comments?

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

The stronger contrast is interesting, but I too fear the map could drown in darkness. Maybe just keep the night-sky and probably the darker ceilings (and other things in the background outside of gameplay areas).

Anyway instead of talking so much about what probably can't be described in words I did what I should have done all the time and took some screens. First is a screen that I think describes all my concerns about texturing in general:



I know it's a mean perspective, but it also is a very common part to see for the player. If the transition from a concrete to a metal surface was really so clean, the concrete would be less shabby. If the concrete was as dirty, there would be a border, gap or any other, more structured transition. Just compare the border of the red stripe to the white paint with the polygonal border to the metal-surface. It's impossible. You can't cut concrete like this so cleanly into a metal-surface. Probably making the concrete a little cleaner would do the polished metal-style the most justice. Or there could be a thin border-stripe on the top and bottom of the concrete texture...

This is all I was talking about the last few posts, so... nothing more to say about it (at last :wink: ).

While taking screenshots I also found a few texturing (or brushwork) errors. These little things stand out quite a bit because it's quite striking compared to the very clean rest of the map. Here's a little collage:

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Why snark works.

Just by looking at the screens, I favor the night theme.

Lights again I'm afraid. I pick the night, because it gave me my desire. The daytime, looks to close to fullbright. I guess if I were told to pick a word that best describes yesterdays conversation I'd pick "Stark" The screens are to stark for my taste.

Again, thats not a bad thing, its my taste, not the end of the world. :wink:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

[*] I'm sure the movement in Fortress Forever is (will be?) faster than HL2DM (which is like clodding through mud with your shoelaces tied together), but there's a fine line between 'spacious' and 'over-scaled' and I'm afraid this leans more toward the latter. I feel about 2-4 feet tall running through this level, depending on the area.
[*] The yellowish lighting + gray textures on most everything makes the map look and feel monotonous. Throw in some more variation in the lighting, and get a more varied texture palette than the handful of different gray concrete and metal textures. I like the actual form beneath the gray textures, but there's just not enough color variation to excite the player's eyes as it stands. Also as someone else pointed out the speckled gray floor texture is pretty bland, I think a bump/normal map and a little dirtying up of both the texture and the specular alpha map would help it a lot.
[*] The big round recessed light things LOD out way too close, and it makes a very noticeable transition.
<LI>The fan that pushes you to the upper level needs work, when you jump up you hit the ceiling and land on the very edge of the top floor, at best.

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o

Thx for going through it with a toothbrush Reaper :wink: i'll try to fix most of those. i'll also try to shift the concrete texture a bit downward to make the upper edge of the texture visible. that will hopefully give it enough of a transition effect, as i can't afford to put in seperate brushes at every transition, and i also don't want to lose the detailed normalmap of the concrete.

Baron von Snickers said:
[*] I'm sure the movement in Fortress Forever is (will be?) faster than HL2DM (which is like clodding through mud with your shoelaces tied together), but there's a fine line between 'spacious' and 'over-scaled' and I'm afraid this leans more toward the latter. I feel about 2-4 feet tall running through this level, depending on the area.

</LI> i first was affraid about this too. The "clodding through mud with your shoelaces tied together" really gives that feeling about us being small and the rooms too large, because it simply takes some time to cross them. However i suggest you take a look at the latest FF gameplay video. If you even look at medium classes like the sniper, he runs very fast. For a true feeling about dimensions and time needed to travel them, run through Flare with the boost on. I feel it's just about right. Also i feel the high ceilings and "wide" corridors aren't too high, but just high enough to conc/trim/double jump freely without feeling cramped. For gameplay reasons i implemented two bottlenecks (top ramp and T) for defense to put a halt to all this free movement.

I'll see what i can do about the LOD and airlift, thx for the feedback :wink:

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

update: did another iteration with a slightly brighter & more varied skybox, i think it's a good middle ground. check 1st shot in its profile.

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Hmm, I think it's a good balance now. Not too opresssingly dark, not too bright and contrastless.

Are you planning to convert this to TF2 when it gets released bytheway?

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

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beta 2 is online

While i still stand by my brightness on the floor, there seemed to be a general consensus that there wasnt enough contrast. so overal i changed most lights to light_spots to have more contrast on the floor. Light on ceilings and walls is dimmed somewhat. I think there's a nice balance between "being able to see fast enemy" and "atmosphereic contrast" now.

Furter changes include some minor issues Reaper mentioned (i wasnt able to make your requested transition (yet) though), and the airlift that propels you somewhat horizontally into the upper corridor now. The dusk nightsky is a fact now too.

I'm going to India for a week, i'll be glad to receive more feedback when i get back. Cya!

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Yup, thats a big improvement mate! My big complaint is about the floors really, as you have these really interesting ceilings throughout, but absolutely nothing going on on the ground. To make matters worse, one of the textures you are using a lot on the floors is extremely clean and near featureless, which doesn't sit well with the fairly crisp and detailed concrete texture used frequently alongside it.

Looking very distinctive though mate, keep it up :smile: Have a nice time in India!

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

I'd actually be a little more brutal and say that the tiles on the
floor look hideous, they bring the whole map down. I'd suggest maybe
scaling them up to 0.50 or using an alternative colour.

I'd reckon you could go with some more lighting to neutralise the
"circles" effect you have here - it might be personal preference on my
part, but I prefer spot lighting such as that to be used sparsely.

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@Cpt P; maybe, but then TF2 would have to be as fast as FF, otherwise the dimensions would be too large.

Reno said:
My big complaint is about the floors really, as you have these really interesting ceilings throughout, but absolutely nothing going on on the ground. To make matters worse, one of the textures you are using a lot on the floors is extremely clean and near featureless, which doesn't sit well with the fairly crisp and detailed concrete texture used frequently alongside it.

I see your point, and it has equally been brought up by other ppl. The problem with floors is that you can't vary in the z-direction too much, otherwise it would hinder movement and line of sight. In contrast, this is possible on ceilings and walls. So I experimented a bit with XY variation and a concrete, non-shiny texture too match the walls better. Plz share your feelings about the screens below.

Gwil said:
the tiles on the floor look hideous, they bring the whole map down. I'd suggest maybe scaling them up to 0.50 or using an alternative colour.

i used that colour as it comes back in the wall and ceiling panels, hence improving style harmony. I tried experimenting with .5 scale though, take a look at one of the floor tile stripes in the screenshots below.

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

For z-variation with the floor you could put something underneath it and a grating texture on top. The parts underneath had to be very dark or otherwise in the background so it doesn't distract too much.

Just a thought.

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Why snark works.

the tiles look better at their original size. though making them more grubby with some 'stain' or 'blood' overlays to break up the monotony, would lead to fewer complaints. the walls could probably use some in places too.

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i eat paint

I hate to say this, but you should consider putting in a few crates, to add cover for the players to hide behind.

Some of these areas are way to open for those that like short range combat :smile:

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

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Well i feel we're slowly getting there :wink:

I took another detailed look at all the remarks and i felt that these still stood out a bit:

• some of the rooms to feel a bit empty
• red lights in the map don't stick out enough
• The yellowish lighting + gray textures on most everything makes the map look and feel monotonous. Throw in some more variation in the lighting
• nothing going on on the ground. To make matters worse, one of the textures you are using a lot on the floors is extremely clean and near featureless, which doesn't sit well with the fairly crisp and detailed concrete texture used frequently alongside it.
• tiles on the floor look hideous, they bring the whole map down. I'd suggest maybe scaling them up to 0.50 or using an alternative colour
• 'stain' or 'blood' overlays

apart from these, i got remarks about that the bare parts could do with more panelling, and that the yard could be improved.

So i mixed all these remarks in a big c**ktail and came up with an expansion of style. i felt the coloured lights i now mainly had in the upper corridors could be expanded onto the yard, main ramproom and lower corridors. For the latter 2 i combined them into more interesting floorwork. apart from that i used more panelling in the frontside of the bases. apart from the overall yellowish and blue/red colourd lighting, i also threw in more white for variation and contrast. i also darkened the colour of the floortiles somewhat and added stains here and there. furthermore i added flag direction signs.

remarks are welcome!

download beta 3

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

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From looking at the screens I'd say you pretty much nailed it. You stayed true to the visual style and added the extra detail needed to fill the parts that looked a bit empty.

The only thing that stands out now, that the rest is pretty much perfect in my eyes, is the shape of the outside-base. It looks really monumental with interesting shapes everywhere but the skyline of the bases, probably the strongest visual in the map, is this rather boring trapezium-shape. You can even see the texture repeating in stripes. Maybe if you repeat the shapes of the middle part or the rounded top part for the side? It just looks very static and boring compared to pretty much all the architecture around it:

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Why snark works.

The two bright areas in front of the skull: The lack of a source, but the incredible lumen's is peculiar. Not wrong, just strange. There could be a source I dunno about so.. shrugs

The colored lights made one hell of a difference. It really helped.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

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Reaper47 said:
The only thing that stands out now, that the rest is pretty much perfect in my eyes, is the shape of the outside-base. It looks really monumental with interesting shapes everywhere but the skyline of the bases, probably the strongest visual in the map, is this rather boring trapezium-shape. You can even see the texture repeating in stripes. Maybe if you repeat the shapes of the middle part or the rounded top part for the side? It just looks very static and boring compared to pretty much all the architecture around it

idd. I still wasn't happy with the yard, so this is beta 4 with a new yard.



download beta 4

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Neat! But, at the risk of driving you insane: I still think the linear shape dominates too much up there. The round supports are added on top of it but the shape still stays very flat.

... sorry <:] I just really think this could be worth it.

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Why snark works.

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Beta 5 is up for download. A few minor alterations here and there, mostly to the yard and flagroom:





I also changed the blue light color somewhat. I kinda like it but i'm having doubts about the purple base color it's casting:





comments are appreciated

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

No more complaints from my side. :biggrin: Great!

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Why snark works.

Being the lazy arse that I am with HL2 maps, I haven't run through it yet -- but the last screenshot, which appears to be a designated "blue" area, seems to lack the blue lighting. I might also add that the areas with blue lighting come off as being really strong.

Something similar seems to apply to screen4 -- you have a "blue" area, but it's not... blue enough. The white lights are completely squashing the blue lights, and the result (at least, this is merely my opinion) is that the lighting looks really slapped-together.

/2 cents

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Please fix your download link.

Currently our clan runs a FF/CTF map server and would love to play test this map using TDM until FF comes out.

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| The Killing Zone| - Gaming Organization Founder &amp; Administrator
IRC: irc.gamesurge.net #TheKillingZone

I currently took down the FF version as it is outdated. I think it's now in a stage where i need FF to be able to put in the finishing touches and upload it.

if you really want to have a look ingame maybe you can ask some of the guys here to upload it, or download the ctf mod version here, but bear in mind the gameplay is mostly different. The bases have lost their rear parts, the ramproom has been made the flagroom, there's an airbridge over the yard etc. shots of the hl2ctf version: 1, 2, 3http://