Yeah, thats what I ment by simmetric, it was squrish. You mean that there is a junction between another wall next to where the door is? No problem, just break that wall as well.

Hey Elon:

Thanks. :smile: It's slowly but surely (nah, not "surely" - "hopefully"? :smile: ) getting there.

I might replace the cut-up brushes with displacements as well as at the "new" broken concrete wall I showed in the most recent screenshots.

Is the more irregular shape of the hole in the wall what you're trying to illustrate in the screenshot you provided? Thanks for it, it's a nice idea. I'll try and do that. Oh, the door there is from the front door of the restaurant - not from where the hole was. :smile:

Also thanks for all the map links. :smile: I'll check all of them for useful reference!

Nice improvments midk, awsome map.

The broken wall in the restaurant isn't finished yet. :wink: It looks too much simmetrical, like it was broken down on porpose. Only that part of the wall is damages, not a scretch on the walls near it or on the door. You should make it less simetrical. A screeni is worth more then ten thousand words, so here it is:



You should rip some of those lamps out of their place and leave them hanging on a cord or lying on the floor? That will be cool. The lights that hang on cord should flicker.

Edit:

Here are some Hl2 example maps that may help you:
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault.php?author=1322
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3871
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3363
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3369
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=3323
http://twhl.co.za/mapvault_map.php?id=2779

Gosh... I'm... speechless, I really don't know what to say. Let me try. :smile:

That red-line principle is a truly interesting and correct one - I don't know how to say this without sounding like someone who goes "you're right" just to seem like they get it, but.. you're right.

These concept art images you've done - wow. I can't stop looking at them... they're excellent (and nice job with the compositing - they look very cool in a rough, pastel-ish way). Let's see, I'll try to address them in order.

1) That building looks lovely - looking back on the original now is hard. :smile: Wow... some really interesting ideas to take in here. Really like the what looks to be destroyed section in the upper left, and the vertical variation all over the building. Also, that radio towerlike thing way back there is really excellent, I love the way it really towers over the neighborhood.

2) The damaged parking lot is a really nice addition. All the skybox things give it what you appropriately called "action" - a business I really hope I can capture before the map's done. The billboard is nice, I've been wanting to put one in but haven't quite found a place for it. I guess seeing it somewhere is a lot easier to appreciate than imagining it somewhere. Those .. gah, what would you call them.. black things. Metal structures (do you know the word for these? shelflike things..) look like they would add some cool gameplay as well, and a ton of realism.

3) Alright, this one looks hands-down incredible.. more like what I pictured for this area when I began it. I wish it were easier to do once I begin it (yes, seeing it has made my mind up for me). :smile: Crumbling rocks, the underlying supports... huge ripped-out chunks littering the sidewalk.. totally. Sigh.. how would one go about this. :sad:

Drawing over screenshots - excellent idea. I've done this a couple times just trying to figure out the layout of a few things but never anything like this with actual manipulation and even semirealistic integration.. I'll certainly be trying this myself very soon.

These screens are very helpful - I really, really appreciate the time you spent putting them together and explaining your thoughts on them. Thank you. :smile: saves them for all eternity

Your map looks like it's really coming along. Screenies are getting prettier, and asthetics seem to be shaping up all-around. It seems like you are really trying to figure this thing out, therefore, I thought I'd give you some advice that has helped me tremendously in creating maps (and more).

The big problem I'm seeing here is a lack of compelling composition. This composition - the broad strokes of your shapes is the foundation of your map. Understanding this stuff is essential to any artist, as it applies to anything that humans look at. I work with some great artists, and just recently (within the past couple of years) had a very 'AHAH!' moment while studying the beautiful pictures and environments they create. It's a very simple principle, and once you realise what's going on, you will see it everywhere. Our world is a visual rollercoaster - a never ending wave of stacked objects that kind of piramid up and down all around us. Pay attention to where your eye goes as you walk down the street... along the sidewalk, to a gutter, up to a room, to an antenna, back down to a window, down an archway, back to the street. This is the organic way in which our eyes move across the landscape be it a room, or a mountainscape - we are constanly riding along the contours of objects around us pulled from one shape to the nest. These contours, the shapes which define the objects only exist because there is contrast. So... when creating an image, you want to take advantage of this knowledge, and create shapes (using contrast) which pull the eye around the image in a satsfying and organic way. There really is a science to this stuff, and when once you start to see it, you realize that it's not that hard to use. So anyway, enough rambling. What I've done is tried to illustrate these concepts with a few quick paintovers of your images. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at with these - they are only meant to illustrate the point of composition, not specific things you should change.

• I really like the feeling of this building on the right, but it's bordering on repetitious, and this view is begging for some more interesting shapes. Use the skyline as much as possible, It's basically a big flat color waiting for you to stack interesting shapes against it. the red line is the path which you eye takes - the rollercoaster.

The second shot has a ton of potential, but also suffers from too much repitition and a fairly dull skyline...your eye needs more action.

Last shot...I really like this busted building, but think you should play it up some more. Take advantage of the theme, make it more dramatic.

Hope this helps. I know that it helps me to do these kinds of exercises with my own maps. Drawing over screenshots is a very powerful tool that all mappers should at least try. It could save you a lot of time when trying to figure things out.

Duncan

Right, but when RAD always takes around an hour, when you have even just a few switchable lights, you end up with an overnight compile.. considering it needs to be compiled twice for HDR, that's around 18 hours of a compile for 3 switchable lights. As long as I understand correctly. I don't mind a long compile at all - in fact the longer it is the better I feel, at least RADwise (if VVIS has trouble, I get worried). :smile: Trouble is that I just don't know if having all these sets of lightmaps in fact degrades ingame performance... I'd imagine they would, having to be loaded and switched out realtime.

Your example of a fight on a swinging/breaking bridge sounds quite fun indeed, but do you understand that it doesn't last? If it's collapsing, then it will just collapse and then that gameplay element is simply over. No more collapsing bridge; if it gets collapsed in the first minute it's not there the whole time. If it's only used towards the end the gameplay could be entirely different. If you're in single player it's cool because that might lead you on to a new area, or cut off an alternate route back, but it's like in multiplayer not everyone gets to try it or doesn't get to see it.

I dunno how to better explain my point of view on this. The ideas are cool but tricky to implement and quite probably performance-hurting. I like to keep smaller things in, though... I'll think about what I can do. Stuff like a few crumbling bricks that fall when they take damage are the kinds of things I prefer. :smile: Maybe it's because I think that many players won't be around to see it.. in singleplayer, the only player that's there always is in that area when something major happens, but in multiplayer, someone may be across the map when it does... I don't know to be honest.

Keeping this in mind nevertheless. :smile:

A moving light is dynamic. A flickering light has 2 states: on and off. RAD will calculate both prior to the map being ran. Thus there are no real time calculations.

You should be worried about how the game runs, not how long the compile is. When everything is said and done, you should inconvenience yourself for the 1 time you'll spend compiling the entire map for release which will take a few hours rather than ruin the game play for everyone.

I've always thought large interactive objects makes games more interactive, regardless of the game play mode. I don't know why you wouldn't want to have a shoot out against your buddy on a collapsing bridge, for example. That'd be awesome.

They're just suggestions. If that's not the route you want to take, that's up to you.

Absolutely - I love dynamicness. :biggrin:

Nah, maybe a light that can be toggled isn't exactly dynamic, but at the least there are two sets of lightmaps per light that needs to be toggled, so if you have e.g. 3 lights that are togglable, you have 9 combinations of lighting, so it's 9 lightmaps that need to be built - hell for the compiler, and probably not nice performancewise etc. Flickering lights, are considered dynamic.

The powerlines idea is also cool - but again I don't think this quite fits in with the deathmatch aspect. In single player this'd be absolutely awesome - but I don't really know how to say this.. in deathmatch I personally think the map should generally start and end in quite similar states so gameplay is always quite the same. They're certainly cool ideas, but I hope you understand what I mean... it's hard for me to explain.

I certainly like smaller things like this though, e.g. like I've got breakable traffic lights. Dynamicness is really awesome and it's something I try to incorporate as much as possible but I believe the "bigger scale" events are best left to singleplayer kind of maps (HL2 had a lot of cool things like this, e.g. breakable bridges and towers, that crumbling smokestack, those Ravenholm traps).

Appreciate your input, as always. :smile:

1) I'm pretty sure you can turn lights on and off without them being dynamic.
2) You can freeze objects once they do whatever. Remember, I said it was on a hinge. It can be controlled. Also, you can make it hit another object and stay there. The point is you make the environment a little more active by making it "dynamic".

You can also make events. (Even though this is very unrealistic, it could be very cool) For example, what if the power lines came down and ignited a building? (Turn on lights that are set to flicker).

There's so many possibilities.

Hey, Crono-

I think you're right, I'm not quite sure what approach I'll take towards more realistic concrete - probably displacements. What do you mean by "the pieces that have fallen don't look right" - the bricks? Right at what line?

I'll certainly have to come up with a good method for this soon, I'll have to do a lot of destruction in the next week. Any particular suggestions? Anybody?

I've considered the idea of telephone poles that can be damaged to the point of falling over and ripping down lines with them but quickly gave up. I have several reasons for not doing this with the street lights:

1) Actually toughish.. setting up constraints for each one, then timing it so the ropes break just when the lamp should be hitting them.
2) Gameplay problems? What if a lamp should fall in the middle of the street and players have to jump over it? That would slow things down a bit.
3) Some glitches - even if you set "Health Level to Override Motion" to a large number it still enables motion on that prop as soon as it's damaged in the least. No idea why.
4) Lighting in two ways: (1) This'd require dynamic lights that can be shut off.. not good. (2) The map would be quite dark sans streetlights...

Don't get me wrong, it's quite a cool idea and I've attempted it before with complete interest. :smile: It just didn't really work out and I guess it was for the best considering potential gameplay issues.

Appreciate your suggestions and compliment though. I'll see what I can do about that concrete wall..