Definitely looks more interesting, but I'm not sure its dark enough for streetlights to be on (or to be as harsh as you want). I personally like the skybox and the color you've chosen, but if you want to go for more lighting contrast using the streetlights, you'll probably have to pick a slightly darker skybox.

Just a thought, if you're going for a destroyed theme, it may be hard to come up with a way to light things, unless there is still power despite the destruction.

I just want to point out that every road on a hill I've ever come across has been convex. Since a concave road would suffer more damage due to lower vehicles.

Something I want to mention - I've been thinking for a long while about turning this into a darker, evening or early-morning map, instead of a bright, sunny day one.

The reasons are mostly that bright maps are fairly typical, and that I think it'd be cool to have street lights illuminating the roads and stuff. Potentially a lot more atmospheric/artistic.. glowing streetlights and lamps with a pink, dark, cloudy sky at dawn versus a simple bright sun against a light blue, clearish day.

I only tried a few compiles tonight to test a prelimiary test effect out (chose a skybox and set up light_environment and then did some streetlight illumination). I already like what I'm getting although it certainly needs some tweak work. If I could get it to look like I imagine in my head, I think it'd look really excellent.

Here are some example screens. Note that I used cordon on this compile to cut off some compex interiors so I could compile this quickly enough. I've tried to take the screenshots from angles where it's not so obvious that brushes are cut off, etc, but if you see anything strange, don't worry. :smile:

1) http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3572/residentialdark1gq2.jpg

2) http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5033/residentialdark2ex5.jpg

3) http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6877/residentialdark3px8.jpg

4) http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4896/residentialdark4nk4.jpg

I think the street lighting should be a bit brighter and more "harsh". It looks a bit too .. even. I think. Any thoughts, anyone?

Yep, all sounds good.

Been feeling a bit tired today - I'll go to bed quite soon. But I mustered up the determination to create another interior - another store (this one, I think, I'll call a restaurant :biggrin: ) next to the other one - on the ground floor of a building which you said looked like one of the best areas of the map. Now you can go from the parking lot into this new area. I want to also let the player go from this area directly to the older store - a blown out wall - instead of going out of this area around into the store. I also want to give a passage from store -> alleyway. Straight on through, as suggested roughly by your, er, flow chart. :smile:

I'll try and finish off the restaurant->store->alley connections tonight and post up a screen or two tomorrow.

Also, I just remembered. I was playing dod_jagd earlier with a friend and took some note on the way Valve dealt with destroyed buildings (which look excellent). One technique I spotted frequently was roughly-clipped jagged world brushes lined with rounded displacements around the jaggies. It's quite a nice effect. I can't find any screenshots on my disk, nor any online, but I'll snag a few tomorrow. Kind of hard to describe.

Anyways, off for the night - laters.

Additionally, when you add routes along the edges, don't just do long straight corridors, but rather have a variety of rooms and areas. For example, you could have certain bits of walls torn down or blown apart so that the player is running through apartment after apartment, instead of just down the corridor. Additionally, texture different buildings uniquely on the inside so they don't all blend together, or use some sort of architectural themes to clue the player in on which part of the map he's in (ie. a s**tty, dirty apartment in one area, and a high class hotel in another). Make each area memorable so new players can learn the map quicker.

Glad you liked the flow chart thing. :smile: Keep pluggin'!

Love the flow map. It looks great. I've been wanting to do something like this - I mean, alternate routes and stuff like that. I've been playing some DoD:S lately and Valve's maps always impress me as far as giving players plenty of choices as far as routes from anywhere to anywhere. I did a bit of that with the destroyed building - two ways in, four ways out - but mostly everything else is quite straightforward and sealed off, and I'd really like to give something like your map illustrates a go. More entrances, more routes.

The spawn points - also right. I might simply delete them all when I'm done with the map and replace them in ideal positons. I haven't had any complaints or problems with the mentioned corner one, but it could certainly be moved elsewhere.

Screen 1: Yep, the outside's just textured like a building so it doesn't look like a concrete box. I'll blow out the windows or.. something... we'll see. :smile: Certainly agree that the inside+outside don't quite mesh..

Screen 2: Alas, I don't think it can [be fixed]. Maybe I'll replace the props with a displacement or something. An alternate route up would be interesting. Maybe from the back via a ladder or something.. that should come as part of the "adding more flow" bit.

Screen 3: Ah, the floor is quite thin, you're right. This entire upper level came as a total afterthought of adding the hill.. I just had to kind of throw it in there quickly so we had the functionality, but I didn't have time to detail it very much. Layered textures is a good idea. Rebar, chunks of concrete, all that must come as well, of course...

The windows? Oh, um.. they were erased by.. a.. residential neighborhood-hating Source lord. Oh, I mean - yessir, I'll do it soon. :wink: That whole outside and inside needs to be retextured, even..

Stuff is piling up for me to do indeed, but keep it coming as long as you can. It's really nice hearing others' thoughts. :smile: Thanks for the layout suggestions and tips!

OK looked at the new screens.

Looking at the overview, I had a few ideas.

-There doesn't seem to be a lot of potential for flow through the map. When I DM, I don't particularly like to camp one spot until I die, but rather I enjoy coming up with a route I usually take and do laps, picking up health and ammo and fragging along the way. Some of the buildings in the map only look like they have 1 entrance, and other areas (like the bottom left part of the map) look like there's unused space where no one would bother heading to because it's either out in the open and/or no weapons ammo there.

-I'd put 1 or 2 more entrances into the buildings, so that people can enter them easier, and just have more choices when it comes to moving about the map. Also, I'd punch a hole through certain buildings, or just add entrances, to increase flow and choices. Obviously, if you do add new areas (I hope you do) you'll need to put ammo or health down to entice them into that area or to preven that route from being ignored.

-Some of the spawn points, especially the top one near the corner of the building and the wall, seem like a death trap. No good weapons nearby, and no cover or immediate choices. Getting spawned in the back corner of a parking lot with only a submachine gun and no nearby building entrances looks like it would be frustrating. Just my thought not having played it.

-Here's how I'd add some routes (done in Paint, sorry):



The idea is just to get more flow around the outside of the map, give people more options when it comes to movement and cover and gives them a chance to escape is they're getting peppered with sniper fire. Just my opinion though :smile: It would be a lot more work for you, and you'd have to use your imagination to make each area, hallway, lobby etc. unique and easily recognizeable. It'll be a challenge sure, but I think it'll be worth it.

Screen 1: Too much debris I think. Especially on the ground further from the stairs. Additionally, the exterior of the building doesn't indicate this level of interior destruction. Either clean up the inside a bit more, or dirty up and destroy the outside to balance it out. Overall a more interesting area than I expected, especially with the bent girders and the prop integration.

Screen 2: Some prop lighting inconsistencies, but I don't know if that can be avoided. Is the ladder the only way up to the sniper spot? If so, I think you should consider adding another route up top, just so the person camping up there has more to worry about.

Screen 3: Flares are a nice lighting choice, but the 2nd floor is too thin. Why not sandwhich 3 types of materials (like tile on top of concrete on top of ceiling material) as a crossection of the ceiling/floor. I think it would look more realistic than 4 units of concrete. Also, this building doesn't really look like a building from the inside. Destruction and rubble is good, but you need to give some indicators that this was a real place, a real building. Retexture the walls and the floor and then destroy them. Ie. place rubble on them, overlays, cut out jagged sections where there was a collapse. If you were to do it over I'd suggest doing a pretty quick build of a real clean building, and then destroy it systematically, adding details etc. Just so you can make sure it feels like a real place before you demolish it. Also, make the 2ndfloor jagged, its way too straight edged along the side with the ladder.

Additionally, where are all the windows that I see from the outside? The building is covered with window textures, but on the inside its just a wall.

I'm sorry if my suggestions all are pretty time-consuming, but if you're up for it I think the result would be worth it. And if nothing else, you'll improve :smile:

Thanks for the layout and for the new screens.

midk said:
Yeah, I suppose :wink: I was going to have it like hanging off the ceiling on a wire, swinging, and maybe sparking, but I was never able to get phys_lengthconstraint to work right. I'll give it another go sometime, or at least remove the light entities.. thanks for pointing it out.

I have to run off to class soonish, so I can't get into the whole reply, but as far as that light goes, you could use one of the broken light props from Nova Prospect where half of the tube is disconnected from the ceiling. You might have to push the prop further into the ceiling to make it fit with the hallway (since its a pretty tall prop) but it would be easier than messing with phys_lengthconstraint (and less resource heavy).

Addicted:

I always compile overnight (and continually less often during the day) considering how long it takes, usually around two hours with HDR lighting. Cubemaps worked today, so I took a few screenshots of the area you wondered about (inside the semidestroyed building) and also made a kind of aerial layout map (went a bit photoshop-crazy on that).

Layout map - 1280x960, ~300kb. I know Orpheus will moan about this, but if I can just have one screenshot to go all-out as far as quality and resolution, let it be this one. :smile: It looked baddish at lower resolutions and quite ugly at lower qualities. http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/1597/residentiallayoutfy0.jpg

Screen 1 of destroyed building; bottom floor. In the corner of the area right next to where you'd walk in from the side: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/6051/residential1xr2.jpg

Screen 2 of destroyed building; up the stairs seen in the first shot, right next to one of the camping spots. There's an exit as well as a ladder leading up to the second, "new" camp spot: http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/886/residential2qz7.jpg

Screen 3 of destroyed building; up the ladder. You can see both camp spots. There's a crossbow up here: http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/2987/residential3dz8.jpg

Don't worry, you and the guys I played with have kept me busy with plenty to do. :biggrin: The rubble bit is a good idea, in fact I tried it in place of those wooden ramps I used to have at first, but it.. well, to put it mildly, didn't work. :smile:

Orpheus did indeed have some good ones. Breezeways probably won't really work here since these are apartments or similar, not single houses... also, I can't find a fire hydrant model. I could make one in 3dsmax, but I was reading the page describing how to get custom models into Source - looks quite painful. Phone booths are a good idea, I'll add them at some point - mailboxes I have in one building. Dirt lots, right, that comes with the new displacement park, and billboards.. yeah. Somewhere or other. :smile:

Yeah, Valve should really let HL2/DM maps use CS:S and DOD:S content.. all of it should be accessible by all games. :\ I could really use some of that stuff.

And thanks for the compliment. I should take those maps down... :smile: Happy to be on the recieving end of your crits. :smile:

-- Gwil:

Yeah, I suppose :wink: I was going to have it like hanging off the ceiling on a wire, swinging, and maybe sparking, but I was never able to get phys_lengthconstraint to work right. I'll give it another go sometime, or at least remove the light entities.. thanks for pointing it out.

Screen 4 - that light wouldn't be working if there's amount of damage so close it, surely?