PitCrew the original

so whats the physical status of the level now orph?...tweaked?....finish compiled?....

Doc Brass.... :dodgy:

not sure if this has been addressed yet, but where do i get signs.wad?

looks amazing in worldcraft...cant wait to check it out ingame, omg is this map HUGE, u guys not believe in vis-groups or somethin?...lol

anyways, i think it looks absolutely amazing,u guys really pulled off a mericle here.

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Dr Brasso said:
so whats the physical status of the level now orph?...tweaked?....finish compiled?....

Doc Brass.... :dodgy:

awaiting some feedback.. i imagine weapon placement is off.. at the very least.

? posted by Sinner_D

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not sure if this has been addressed yet, but where do i get signs.wad?

addressed and wad included, if the map loads , you dont need it.

looks amazing in worldcraft...cant wait to check it out ingame, omg is this map HUGE, u guys not believe in vis-groups or somethin?...lol

vis-groups? what does that have to do with anything?

anyways, i think it looks absolutely amazing,u guys really pulled off a mericle here.

blushes

they pulled off something spacial alright :smile:

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How about:

snarkbite
hunting_of_the_snark
snarks&ladders
snarkdom
spit
pendulum&the

i was thinking..

1) snarktastic

2) snarkdom

3) snark_crew

but "Spit" does appeal to my wit :heee:

Since the map is made by some of the guys here at the SP, don't ya think the map oughtta have some more snarks in it?

I ran through it. Um, where are the weapons? And only 10 spawnpoints for such a huge map? (3 info_player_starts??)

You can't be serious, guys, to have such a huge map with only 3 shotguns and 4 machine guns? uh?

I'm not saying to make this map a "GA style" map with tons of weapons, but jesus, man ya gotta have more than 1 frickin crossbow in the whole map! lmao.

Map looks ok, don't get me wrong, but when I spawned in I saw a very nice hand drawn snarkpit cartoony thing...but I couldn't see the whole thing since the wall looking out the window was so high...

Also I ran right through some guard rails here and there...be nice if they were clipped off.

And, btw, is there a theme here?

Now, I don't know if you guys have discussed this already here...I haven't read thru the whole post...but MOST DEFINITELY you need many many more weapons.

My opinion in a nutshell of this map: A very nice looking unorganized theme map. The map has no meaning. Just a bunch of stuff thrown together, and the map is gigantic. Also, I had to run around for a few minutes before even one weapon was found, unless you count tripmines...in that case, I found 6.

Overall, on scale 1-10, IMO, this map deserves nothing more than a 3. If it was a single-player instead of a deathmatch, defintely would get a better score, but as it stands right now, with hardly a weapon to be found, I can't score it any better.

/throws a shield up to try and hold back the oncoming flames

SPLA 1 (snarkpit leadership adjunct) as opposed to ours, which im thinking in my own head means....

SPLA 2... snarkpit lesser assholes...

completely toungue in cheek gentlemen .... :heee:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Right, I've just had a look at the latest version. There are a number of things that I think need addressing.

• Weapons

I think Doc's claims are a little extravagant - I found 3 crossbows and quite a lot of shotties/mp5s. Some areas of the map are about right, and some of the weapon placement is cunning. However there are some areas that have practically no weapons at all - eg. Yak's and Dave's sections. There are plenty of snarks, however - I counted at least 5 packs.

The main "open area" (Grimlock's) has nothing but a satchel on the ground floor.

• Lighting

It's too dark in places! I can't see where I'm going. Really, it just looks like some corners have been forgotten. Yak's area is too dark overall too.

Also I don't feel that Grimlock's colourful lighting fits well with the rest of the map.

• Entity details

The water in Dietz's section is an absolute crime. Not only is it over-clipped beneath the surface, but once you fall in you can't get out! At the very least, the water level must be raised.

The teleporters still don't work, and neither does Dietz's lift.

Don't get me wrong - I think this map has superb connectivity and excellent gameplay potential. It would be a shame if these details brought it down.

Doc, constructive feedback, even negative is always welcome, but i have to say 2 things,

1) be sure you have version 21, cause literally dozens of items have been added since before then.. onlyent compiles and all, tis easy to add, tis one of the major reasons i add weaponry last.

2) you obviously didn't look around much, cause the cartoon pic is fully visible from the floor below which you were upon.

give the map another looksee.

gollum, the lights are off, but no place is to dark, at least on my screen.. in fact i made sure there are none, but as i have said, compile times are quite long, and i refuse to do another one till i get some substantial feedback first.

many sections had items placed in advance of my recieving the map so the layout and placement has to be off, this i know.. but where? this is the question i seek.

lastly the water in dietz area, i lowered it purposely, there are 2 major weapons beneath that grating, and i want them accessable from only one outlet, if you want the weapons, you need to be willing to pay the price to get them..

you can only climb out from the inactive lift, which i left broke on purpose to illistrate the need to use it.

i am not above altering the map in any way, but compile times warrent i be selctive.

yaks area, specifically the teleporters require trigger brushes and another full compile, so i was delaying till i ran all the onlyent compiles i needed.

i am afraid to brighten the map any more, its fairly blinding in some areas already.

also, grimlocks and daves area have gobs of items already, maybe i should lightspot them so people can see items in this map??

i admit its just to freaking huge to have to few items, but it is far from being barren as doc seems to imply, i would say its pretty near complete on total items in quantity, it just needs them moved around to more sparse areas..

give version21 a peek guys.

Personaly, I like darker areas. It adds life to a map. I mean, not everything if fully lit and visible. However if finding weapons and items in the lesser lit areas is a problem, why not adding a light_spot and a func_illusion fade brush?

I never played the map really (slaps self) because my computer with internet couldnt run it and I couldnt transfer it via A drive. But soon I will take a peek and give some feedback if its still wanted. Screens wouldnt be such a bad idea either.

if this map has even a chance of scoring low, just because i am in charge, then i recommend someone else do the last compiled version, before it is released..

this map is not horrible, even as is in its current form, but if theres even a remote chance that just because my names hooked to it that it will be hurt, i prefer another release it.

i know for a fact, that some will in fact do this, and i would feel better if another member did the actual releasing.

I dont see a problem with you doing the final compile. Whats the difference between you compiling it and someone else compiling it? In the end, its still the same map. Still made by the same mappers, still played by the same players, and still enjoyed.

Gollum said:

• Lighting

It's too dark in places! I can't see where I'm going. Really, it just looks like some corners have been forgotten. Yak's area is too dark overall too.

the images i posted a couple pages back, are unaltered as far as brightness and/or gamma corrections are concerned.

those pics are of yaks area and are very bright on my screen, i don't exactly see any dark corners..

seriously tho, post me some screens, and i will gladly address any issues anyone has, within reason of course.. as gollum said there are at least 3 crossbows, i really do not see the need to add another, the map just doesnt support snipers very well.

there are however, lots of ledges to throw satchels and the annoying bugs, which i have been happy to place for anyone interested in acquiring a few giggles along the way.

post a screen shot of anything that needs changed and i will see to it before the version 22 release.

Actually I must have been looking at the map with some screen glare earlier. I looked at it again tonight and Yak's area looks fine. There are a couple of spots - one in Grim's, one in Dave's area - that are too dark though:

[simg]http://www.snarkpit.com/pits/gollum/Forum screens/snark2.jpg[/simg]

[simg]http://www.snarkpit.com/pits/gollum/Forum screens/snark3.jpg[/simg]

Also there's an invisible floor in Dietz's section:

[simg]http://www.snarkpit.com/pits/gollum/Forum screens/snark1.jpg[/simg]

scratches buttocks

invisible floor? in that screeny?

ok then, will look into it when i return.. but i honestly don't see it in the screen you posted...

Orpheus said:
scratches buttocks

invisible floor? in that screeny?

ok then, will look into it when i return.. but i honestly don't see it in the screen you posted...

You can't see it because it's invisible! In that screenshot, I'm standing on "thin air".

I have a few comments but I'll wait until I see the new version and have time to write up my diatribe about weapon placement.

And this map is far from finished of course...playtesting needs to be done. Lots of it. We can't have a crappy playing map now can we? :biggrin:

But, please, Doc, this map is a 3/10? I have seen so much crap get high accolades that it's not even funny. This map without weapons is more fun than say, some of Manson's maps, mainly because the actual level design is good. Connectivity is top-notch, the map flows well, and for the huge size it is very easy to get from section to section. As for theme, who needs that? Nobody (ok, only me) gives a crap about looks or theme once they get into the heat of the game. We've got 7 different mappers working on the same map, that's novelty enough.

But, please, Doc, this map is a 3/10? I have seen so much crap get high accolades that it's not even funny.

Thats the problem when so many crap maps get highly rated/hyped up - when a genuinely good map comes along it won't get the recognition that it deserves because it'll be rated the same as the other crud :sad:

I was expecting this map to be more of a mish-mash of ideas/design considering how many mappers made it but its much better than i thought it would be.

I think this map has come a very long way and is now an overall good map, but there were a couple of things that I thought weren't quite right; I would post screenshots but I can't upload to ftp for some reason.

The area with the gaudy 'da snark pit' sign has strange lighting on the cliffs, with some parts looking allot darker than others.

The lighting in the big outdoors area with the two big spotlights shining down is all wrong. For a start it seems very bright considering it is supposed to be night time, and those yellow spotlights are ugly as hell. I think a few smaller spot lights would look allot better. Also this outdoors area is not consistent with the previous one and Reno's section in terms of colour and brightness.

The lift shaft with a rotating red light at the top of it and water at the bottom is far too bright, so much so that the rotating light looks silly. I suggest having some small lights on the walls of this shaft and scrap whatever is making it so horrible and bright :smile:

If it was me, I would want a lower ambient light level throughout the map, with allot more highlight type lights. It did seem to me that a few areas were quite bright with no obvious source for the light.

The only other thing that I thought of is that the newer areas (sorry, don't know who made what), that use mostly concrete textures, could benifit allot from a couple of coloured lights here and there. Don't get me wrong, I do like these areas, but a few touches of colour would add allot I think (I'm not including the area with the red highlights around things in this comment). I would agree that some areas are a little short on weapons, and I also think a bit or ammo here and there wouldn't go a miss, but I was certainly able to find plenty of weapons in my quick tour around the place. I also agree with Gollum that the flashing red and green in Grimlocks area doesn't fit in that well... to be honest I never liked that area much but in a map with 7 or so different styles, I don't expect to like all of them.

Oh yeah last thing, I think you need to increase the contrast on those signs with people's names on them. They look kinda bland IMO... perhaps you could put a nice little ReNo-style light shining down on each one to give them a little highlight? Somehow make them stand out a bit more... a dark frame as well perhaps.

I'm afraid I haven't been able to get a playtest going on the map yet as I've been home over the weekend, but I have taken a look at the map and have some feedback.



This area should probably be clipped off, seems unintentional that the player can guass jump up here. The trim around the top seems awkward too, its an odd texture to use as a trim.



A single satchel? Seems a little stingy considering its a dead end and players have to purposefully go in there for the weapon. I'd say make it 2 at least.



This is an awkward transition, that oddly texture block that runs around the room ends too abruptly at this doorway.



This corridor needs work, its texturing is far too overscaled and it could use some aligning.



This fan makes a sound like its going fast but its travelling REALLY slowly. Speed it up or remove the sounds.



This dead end needs to be made more polished (like an actual door texture) OR if there are any resources left, I reckon somebody (such as Mazemaster, who doesn't have his own area) could link it up with the following two areas...







I reckon this single skylight looks out of place, it needs a partner or two up there.



This area needs some light, I like the architecture but its much to dark to appreciate.



A single rocket? Its hardly a trivial place to get to, as you need to either lose 10 health by falling from above or get the LJ first, so I reckon it needs something more deserving of the effort. Also, the map should probably have the same rock texture running throughout rather than some many different ones. Which one would be best I do no know, but its worth experimenting.

Weapon placement in general needs work in my opinion, its too empty and some of it feels somewhat random. Otherwise however, its come along amazingly, and I'm really pleased with it. The layout and connectivity is confusing but works and I look forward to the final product.

Use a different one to that purple stock rock :rolleyes:

This dead end needs to be made more polished (like an actual door texture) OR if there are any resources left, I reckon somebody (such as Mazemaster, who doesn't have his own area) could link it up with the following two areas...

I had intended for that indented wall to house a teleporter... I had a different texture to hint such in the last version I touched, but it seems someone changed it to a the same texture as the other walls... Ummm yeah

Dietz said:

This dead end needs to be made more polished (like an actual door texture) OR if there are any resources left, I reckon somebody (such as Mazemaster, who doesn't have his own area) could link it up with the following two areas...

I had intended for that indented wall to house a teleporter... I had a different texture to hint such in the last version I touched, but it seems someone changed it to a the same texture as the other walls... Ummm yeah

A teleporter's a good idea. Just make my two connect to that one and there'll be three nice one-way teleporters (like in Cataclysm)

lemme tell you how close this map is to full up..

those 6 simple wire fences that i placed under dietz's waterway, put us over the top, i had to clip off a few things just to get it back into "i think i will compile fine now" mode ..

items, such as the one reno mentioned, a single RPG round.. its hard to describe how the map looks in hammer, but that particular area was way to heavy in items, it had an egon and an RPG in very close proximity, i do realize the item placement is way off, but in all honesty, i threw a s**tload of items in just to forestall the comments of this huge map being so thinly populated with things. i knew a major rearrangement was in order BUT i also knew that any playtest without any items would have sucked far worse.

i would have to increase the item counts by at least 5 times to even approach a GA style map, so fear not, that is very unlikely to occur.

lastly, i dimmed the light environmental from 100 to 75 and the map still looks way to bright for a night time map IMO.. the damned compile times are so forking long that any adjustments take a long time to see results :sad:

thanx for the input thus far, i do agree that some more indoor lights are in order, but we must remember, the plane limit is at maximum..

Somethin else I noticed is that the signs need to be clipped off or made into func_illusionary. In a heated fire fight, it really sucks to get stuck on a sign when you're running and gunning.

Also why do you want to make weapons hard to get to (like the rocket launcher and gauss)? or why do some mappers make the long-jump hard to get to? It's a deathmatch map...lol...

IMO, I think it's silly. Put the weapon out there for anyone to grab or fight over. Don't hide it.

Making powerful weapons more difficult to obtain is a classic method for creating good "gameflow". It's been used ever since Quake1 (at least) by professional and (good) amateur mappers.

The idea is simple: if a powerful weapon is easy to get, why should anyone ever bother with the less powerful weapons? Why not just go straight for the big guns? This leads either to maps where only one area is busy, or worse to maps which only include one type of weapon.

The understanding of when to invest time to get a big gun is part of every good player's skills. Usually it involves finding efficient ways to do this, or lulls in the action (since wasting time is otherwise wasting frags).

Another scheme that operates in a similar way is the risk/reward approach. Making a weapon dangerous to obtain creates an interesting gameplay dynamic - for example, the pressure trap in UT's DM-pressure, or cough.

DocRock said:
Somethin else I noticed is that the signs need to be clipped off or made into func_illusionary. In a heated fire fight, it really sucks to get stuck on a sign when you're running and gunning. good point, and easy enuff to accomplish.

Also why do you want to make weapons hard to get to (like the rocket launcher and gauss)? or why do some mappers make the long-jump hard to get to? It's a deathmatch map...lol...

IMO, I think it's silly. Put the weapon out there for anyone to grab or fight over. Don't hide it.

sighs

there is no way known, that could convince me that this is sound playing mentality.. and the odds are even more slim of me letting this masterpiece degress into a fancy killbox.

letting items just lay around is, well we know what it is, so beating this around again isn't gonna help.

bottomline, its not likely to happen. /end of discussion.

All I can do is shake my head at that last comment about the map being a masterpiece.

............no, it's not.

And that's just fine if you want to leave your weapons just as they are.

That way, you can just add this map to the huge stockpile of unplayed maps out there in the community.

and I'll be the first one to say "I told you so" here in a few months.

Listen up, members of the Pitcrew map team! Heed Doc's dire warning!

Best chuck a s**tload of weapons on the floor unless you want the map to go unplayed. Don't say you weren't warned!

Thar be monstars. Ar.

doc, i am trying to be civil, so i will say this slowly and with feeling, stay away from my project.

there are several legendary maps that are no longer played, and if mine is heaped upon this pile, i will gladly accept that option, OVER being added to the crap map pile, that is getting game time.

once more for posterity, if you have no positive feedback (being constructive, in either negative or positive) just keep your opinions to yourself.

thats just about as clear as i can make it, i can only HOPE you are intelligent enough to accept this final bit of advice.

[edit] message editted for the visually impaired [/edit]

:rolleyes: Here we go again...

Doc did say it was 'in his opinion'. He covered his arse so don't jump down his neck this time. I could understand this attitude if Doc had said that you must plonk weapons anywhere but he didn't...

IMO you two need to accept that you have differing opinions about things, and live with it - not argue about who's opinion is right and whose is wrong.

Mmkay? :smile:

Or go throw some potatoes at each other :biggrin:

As I've said in other circumstances - Doc is entitled to his opinion, even if it is wrong.

Can't help but detect a little itsy-bitsy smidgeon of spite lurking there, though. And I had my spite-radar serviced only last week (overloaded them in a pub; had to get the envy detectors replaced).

Maybe I need a spite-radar also - where can I pick one up cheap? :wink:

Adam Hawkins said:
:rolleyes: Here we go again...

adam, as much as i would like to agree with you, i just can't.

the ability to surgically install poor to moderately bad advice, in the name of opinionated rights is just bad business.

this project is mine, and ultimately all opinions are subject to my final say, and i dont need bad advice, no matter the source.

i can differentiate between good and poor advice so, lets just leave it at that shall we, i did after-all comment positively when doc posted useful ideas.

bottom-line, this is my project, i will decide what gets done, there can be but one boss, and i dont intend on sharing.

/end of story

Let me give you some vital facts on why plenty of weapons make a map popular.

Here is a link to AG-stats for last week.
http://www.ag-stats.net/games.php

If you scroll down to the bottom, you'll see the top 10 servers for the week.

My server is number 8 in the list, but NUMBER 1 for Valve servers. 7,370 players played there last week, which averages out to a little over 1,000 players per day. On my server, I run nothing but my maps. You all know my maps have a good abundance of weapons.

I'm not making this post to showcase myself, but to give you viable proof that weaponry in a map makes a huge difference on the playtime the map will get.

Do what you will with this information. I'm just trying to help.

DocRock said:
Do what you will with this information. I'm just trying to help.

[color=limegreen]* information is swiftly deposited file-13 *[/color]

thanx doc.

You are oh so very welcome :biggrin:

btw...good luck with your "masterpiece"

heh

At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of mood you are in. Sometimes I enjoy running around armed to the back teeth with weaponry, and other times I like to be made to work for my weapons.

Tactics or a quick mindless blast - i'm sure we all enjoy both at times :smile:

i can't help remembering all the servers who used to run quality maps, sighs

oh well, if there are only 7,000+ players playing s**t maps, thats not so bad.

i have prolly had 10 times that many playing mine once upon a time, in the same time period.

sadly, in the dying days of HL1, servers like this are all thats left.

I'm not making this post to showcase myself

*cough*Bulls**t*cough* Er, I mean, how very helpful of you.

Bearing in mind that CamperStrike far outperforms DM in terms of popularity, I suggest that the principles of making a good map are not to be identified with the principles of making a popular map.

Incidentally, as an aside on statistics, one should note that listing servers by total frags will give a huge popularity bias towards severs that run maps stocked full of weapons. More weapons = more frags per second. Total "player hours" would be a better representation.

Regardless, well done for having a popular server. But that's totally irrelevant to map design. We've been through this issue before.

Gollum said:

I'm not making this post to showcase myself

*cough*Bullsheit*cough*

Regardless, well done for having a popular server. But that's totally irrelevant to map design. We've been through this issue before.

now you went and done it, brought up his second most embarrassing discussion

winks

nice 1 mike

That's some good logic there Doc... "more people do it, therefore it must be right". I still haven't got an answer from you to my question: "If these maps you advocate are so great, why does no comercial game come with DM maps of this type?".

I'm certain no one wants my opinion on weapon balancing, but tough s**t:

When Valve designed HLDM way back when they purposefully tried to make sure no weapon could dominate the game. Everything would have its uses; people with a pistol could kill those with RPGs and gauss rifles. This wasn't going to be some quakefest where the rocket launcher is king and you are helpless unless you get bigger weapons.

Of course, we all know that they almost succeeded (egon aside :razz: ). No weapon is useless, and with proper map construction no weapon has an overwhelming advantage.

Personally, my favorite way of having weapon placement is to put the heavy weapons in open areas where people can fight it out. Its a difficult risk to go after the gauss in the middle of the arena when everyone can gun them down midstep. But the secret to this set-up is to place restricted amounts of ammo spread out throughout the map. It would probably be wiser to use the mp5 or the .357 sitting nearby that has a reliable amount of ammo. You may get one or two kills with the RPG, but good luck getting across the map to get the ammo for it when you're finished. That makes the other weapons important if you want to keep using your big guns. It also forces people to move throughout the map. Plus there's no camping if you have no ammo to fuel it.

But the day that I support maps that haphazardly put a ton of weapons and ammo in poorly designed areas is the day that I retire from gaming and throw my computer out the window. There is an obvious difference between Crossfire and Killbox, and I hope we all can see it.

I'd rather this map never get played at all then be associated with crap like that.

PS: Killbox is one of the most successful HLDM maps ever...we should have had each author make one wall each, dumped a ton of weapons on the ground, and plastered the Snarkpit name all over and called it a day. I would have got my section finished in about 1 hour...

An hour to place one brush? Jeez :razz:

It's gotta be just right.

Yak_Fighter said:
I'd rather this map never get played at all then be associated with crap like that.

in a nutshell, my sentiments exactly.

i, as a mapper always want people to play my maps, but it is never the driving force behind my work. in fact work is a poor choice for a description of how i view mapping.

personally i think of the people playing as one of the lowest priorities on my list of importances, people just don't factor in at all. simply put, no matter how much effort you put into a map, the players will decide if they like it or not, so why bother including their opinions into anything?

lastly anyone who thinks the players are important enuff to have a viewpoint are bound to create crap, or at least a substandard map, cause there are just to many opinions on what is the best choices.

if it ever reached a point, where i had to ask, or rely on a simple minded player for advice, i would just quit mapping all together. they simply are to divided on whats important in maps.

this alone IMO is what is wrong with the current trend of maps played, they are made with players in mind, and "simple people = simple maps", that is undeniable a fact.

? posted by scary_jeff
That's some good logic there Doc... "more people do it, therefore it must be right". I still haven't got an answer from you to my question: "If these maps you advocate are so great, why does no comercial game come with DM maps of this type?".

I really can't answer that question, Jeff. Why do you only ask it of me, tho? Are you not a mapper as well? Why aren't your maps good enough for a commercial game? Why aren't Gollum's or Yak Fighter's? Why aren't anyone else's here on this snark pit site?

Why not ask it of Orpheus and his "masterpiece." If this map is such a msterpiece, why doesn't a commercial game come with maps of it's magnitude?

I know why...it's because we are not professional. None of us are. If we were, we wouldn't be here, would we? It's because we all do it as a hobby, and when one person gets a little fame or publicity over it, then everyone else is jealous as f*ck.

Maybe I went a little over the top by showing the stats, but I thought it might be a good way to illustrate what I was saying. Evidently not.

? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=Orpheus"">Orpheus</a>
lastly anyone who thinks the players are important enuff to have a viewpoint are bound to create crap, or at least a substandard map, cause there are just to many opinions on what is the best choices.

Ya know, I think that can really go both ways. If you don't listen to what people think of your "work," you will create crap, or at least a substandard map, and continue to do so without even caring what players think of your stuff.

That's a bit closed-minded. As well as calling players simple people. In other words, if you call a player simple minded, well, you'd be calling yourself simple minded because, um, you're a player. All of us here are players of Half-Life. So in a nutshell, you just called anyone who plays Half-Life simple.

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<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold" bgColor=black>? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=Orpheus"">Orpheus</a></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>if it ever reached a point, where i had to ask, or rely on a simple minded player for advice, i would just quit mapping all together. they simply are to divided on whats important in maps.

As are many mappers. As are many feedbacks given here on this site. People are divided on how dark a map is and what kind of lights to use. They're divided on weapon placement, rspeeds, texture choices...etc. Every mapper has his/her own opinion on what makes a map work or what doesn't. Orph, you are constantly preaching about how important it is to get feedback on a map before it's released...and now you won't even accept the feedback of a "simple" player? That seems a bit like a double-negative to me.

Perhaps you should listen to people, even the "simple player" who plays your map. Nine out of ten of the "simple" players wouldn't know Jack about a rspeed or a texture misalignment, but as long as they got a weapon in their hand and they can kill, they'd be happy and probably want to play the map again.

Doc....be aware that some of us around here do have commercial experience...KungFuSquirrel, and myself to name two.

I'd stop now Doc as you're digging youself deeper and deeper. Shrug it off and let it go.

I'm not saying Orpheus is right or that you are wrong. You're both entitled to your opinions (and I respect both sides), but these opinions tend to be laced with little digs at each other, that are not good for how people hold you in their esteem.

DocRock said:
? posted by scary_jeff
That's some good logic there Doc... "more people do it, therefore it must be right". I still haven't got an answer from you to my question: "If these maps you advocate are so great, why does no comercial game come with DM maps of this type?".

I really can't answer that question, Jeff. Why do you only ask it of me, tho? Are you not a mapper as well? Why aren't your maps good enough for a commercial game? Why aren't Gollum's or Yak Fighter's? Why aren't anyone else's here on this snark pit site?

Why not ask it of Orpheus and his "masterpiece." If this map is such a msterpiece, why doesn't a commercial game come with maps of it's magnitude?

Actually, I would have thought that very few people here, talented as they all are, have bothered seriously applying for a level designer job for reasons other than lack of talent, such as location, or the fact that many people here are too young. But yes, you do have a point that no-one is a professional level designer, but hey- if I was paid to make this website and was trained and hang around other designers this site would obviously be better. But I'm not a commercial web designer through choice and not bothering following it, rather than lack of talent. Same goes for maps :razz:

UH OH

DRAMA!!!