3D view navigation

3D view navigation

Re: 3D view navigation Posted by mazemaster on Wed May 31st 2006 at 7:53am
mazemaster
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Posted 2006-05-31 7:53am
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In mapping, modeling, and other 3D apps, there are a ton of different styles of moving the camera around to look at what you want to see. Such a seemingly small part of a mapping/modeling program has huge effects on my ability to get stuff done and my comfortability with the interface to the point that its a make-or-break thing for me.

Worldcraft, and most FPS games: mouselook for pitch and yaw, and wasd for forward/backward movement and strafing. I love this style because you can move around the world/models like you are flying. The biggest disadvantage is the blatant lack of control of the "roll" of the camera, which is important in modeling. Also, there is no built in tool to rotate around a specific object, although if you are good at keeping an object centered on the screen while strafing around it, then it's not too hard to achieve the same effect.

QuArK: mouselook with very poor strafing control. Plus you can only do mouselook when you are not moving. Basically to move around you have to move, change camera angle, move, change camera angle, etc. This is the single reason why I stopped using QuArK if I dont need to despite its awesome features like duplicators, linear transformation abilities, and the tree hirearchy.

Camera placement: In most programs you can specifically create a "camera" object, and move it around in the 2D views. While this is fine and occasionally useful, It becomes annoying in programs where this is the only way to change the 3D view.

Nearly all 3D modeling apps (3ds max, Blender, Milkshape, etc): pan and rotate, with various ways to control the roll. Most 3D modeling programs offer variations on how it is done.

Rotation: whether rotation is done about the selected object, or some set distance in front of the screen. I prefer rotation around the selected object.

Zoom: Some programs let you move the camera through objects as you zoom in, while others just asymptotically move the camera closer and closer to the blocking object without every going through it. I'm up in the air on this one - its nice to be able to keep zooming in on the stuff you are working on without going through it, but on the other hand when working with complex models that have peices blocking other peices, your view can asymptotically zoom in on the wrong part of the model.

Roll: In some systems you grab near the outside of the screen to roll it, and near the inside of the screen to pitch and yaw. Blender uses this and I'm a big fan. Other programs use pitch and yaw mouselook, and have a special key for doing roll. Yet others (3D Cad programs like SolidWorks come to mind) control the roll of the screen based on the curl of your mousemovements. ie: if you move the mouse around the screen and back to the same point you started, the amount of roll is proportional to the area swept out by the mouse during the movement. Its very non-intuitive, but actually works pretty well when you get used to it.

My absolute favorite (though I have yet to find a program that does this) would be worldcraft style mouselook+wasd, combined with a special key that activates roll. For example, you would be zooming around your map/models with mouslook, then all of a sudden you hold down the middle mouse button and the mouse now controls the roll of the camera.

Anyways, what are all of your opinions on the subject?
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Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Hugh on Wed May 31st 2006 at 7:56am
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Posted 2006-05-31 7:56am
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I like WC's way of doing it, probably because I'm used to it. I couldn't get around worth s**t in Quark, I could get around pretty well in Milkshape after I learned how, but WC I have the most experience with.
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Re: 3D view navigation Posted by reaper47 on Wed May 31st 2006 at 9:17am
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Posted 2006-05-31 9:17am
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I'm afraid I didn't read the whole post but I always thought of Worldcraft/Hammer's way of doing it as the most comfortable.

When learning other 3D programs it mostly takes a while for me to get used to movement but once I figured out the keys I have no problems. The only thing I hate about almost every other level editor/modeling program is the "Roll" (to make clear what I understand as roll: when you suddenly look upside down for no reason). I can hardly think of any real use for "rolling" the view. Maybe in a 3D (rendering) prog to position the camera but in a pure editing program it makes little sense. When it happens I mostly feel like the programmers where to lazy to add a key feature to the program. You then always have to "normalize" the view with a key and it feels arkward like playing an FPS with the keyboard only.
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by wil5on on Wed May 31st 2006 at 9:28am
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Posted 2006-05-31 9:28am
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mazemaster said:
My absolute favorite (though I have yet to find a program that does this) would be worldcraft style mouselook+wasd
I agree with this. I dont model, so I dont know how useful camera roll would be for that, but I dont imagine it would be useful for mapping. I've always thought Hammer had the most intuitive interface of the major editors I've used (I've also used Radiant and QuArK). QuArK's entire interface is, in my opinion, a bit clumsy. The heirarchy system is good in principle, but it is poorly executed.
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Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Orpheus on Wed May 31st 2006 at 10:36am
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Posted 2006-05-31 10:36am
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One thing I have noticed about editors is, most people treat them the exact opposite of any other program.

I mean, you usually stick with the editor that first captured your attention, or were introduced to first. It doesn't matter how much better any other editor is, you are more than likely going to stick with it to the end. Most people upgrade to better programs almost daily.. (IE this silly browser fetish)

Sadly this tendency to not want to depart company with a certain editor keeps you from advancing to other games that do not utilize it.

Worse, you are to old like me to invest the necessary time. I simply do not have hours to spend relearning. Hell I don't have time to invest in the basics I already know. :sad:

The best things in life, aren't things.
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Dr Brasso on Wed May 31st 2006 at 12:44pm
Dr Brasso
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Posted 2006-05-31 12:44pm
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knit one, pearl two....knit one pearl two....take up knitting jon.....////runs

WC is by far the best overall setup, imho.....and as ive stated many times, it is a direct derivitive of the autocad model space setup....easy transition for me... :heee:

Doc B... :dodgy:
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Agent Smith on Wed May 31st 2006 at 11:13pm
Agent Smith
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Posted 2006-05-31 11:13pm
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I definately find WC to be the easiest, it does exactly what you need it to do without becoming overly complicated. UnrealEd takes a little while to get the hang of, but its also a fairly easy to use system. Modelling programs on the other hand seem to be so un-natural to use. I've been using a fair bit of Blender lately, since its the only modelling program I can both figure out how to use and not have to pay any money for, and its taken ages to get used to the controls. Even now I find myself swearing at the screen when the camera starts rolling when I just want to pan sigh. The roll is about the most useless camera function imagineable. I can't really see how the same movement can't be achieved using a system similar to the WC camera.
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Re: 3D view navigation Posted by FatStrings on Thu Jun 1st 2006 at 1:46am
FatStrings
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Posted 2006-06-01 1:46am
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while on the topic i would like to ask what would be a good mapping program to begin on, as that is what i plan on doing
hammer has been pissing me off by repetitively telling me i need to pay for it then remembering that it is free
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Pvt.Scythe on Thu Jun 1st 2006 at 9:20am
Pvt.Scythe
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Posted 2006-06-01 9:20am
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while on the topic i would like to ask what would be a good mapping program to begin on, as that is what i plan on doing
hammer has been pissing me off by repetitively telling me i need to pay for it then remembering that it is free
I'd say WC/Hammer. I've used Quest and a bit of Quark in the past, but
IMO neither of them were easy. Besides I don't know if Quest is still
around, since it was a DOS based Quake editor(although I heard that
there was a win95 version).

D3Radiant had a good system, if I recall correctly. I should re-install Doom3 and play with the editor again.

My favorite is still WC/Hammer and I've also grown to like the way Blender does it...
''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by reaper47 on Thu Jun 1st 2006 at 2:54pm
reaper47
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Posted 2006-06-01 2:54pm
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I quite like the RED-Editor (Red faction) It's an Unreal-style editor and almost unsable if you don't know the shortcuts but once you do it's quite comfortable. It wasn't all that hard to learn. Although it works completely different than WC/Hammer the basics are identical in almost every level editor.
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Naklajat on Thu Jun 1st 2006 at 5:45pm
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Posted 2006-06-01 5:45pm
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UnrealEd has been growing on me (I'll have to have a dermatologist look at that). But seriously, I used to hate that editor, now it's just slightly annoying and only because I haven't taken the time to figure out what the heck stuff does. As for the navigation only, VHE is the best I've used, but I got tired of building 6 boxes for one room.

o

Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Pvt.Scythe on Thu Jun 1st 2006 at 5:56pm
Pvt.Scythe
730 posts
Posted 2006-06-01 5:56pm
730 posts 113 snarkmarks Registered: Sep 19th 2004 Occupation: student Location: Finland
I've tried to use UnrealED twice in my life and on both times I
couldn't do ANYTHING with it... None of the buttons worked. After an
hour or so I got so pissed that I started to punch keys randomly and
still I wasn't able to do anything. It's probably the hardest editor to
learn without documentation. Hell I got further with Blender without
documentation than UnrealEd. What's the secret?
''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by reaper47 on Thu Jun 1st 2006 at 5:57pm
reaper47
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Posted 2006-06-01 5:57pm
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2827 posts 1921 snarkmarks Registered: Feb 16th 2005 Location: Austria
VHE is the best I've used, but I got tired of building 6 boxes for one room.
Exactly. That always bothered me since I first saw the somewhat more efficient Unreal way.

For some reason I feel like the Quake/HL method produces different results than the Unreal method. I don't know why but I often feel like the VHE building process creates more solid, more natural architecture because you have to spend more time on thinking of the actual shape of the walls. Maybe it's just the games, though.
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by DrGlass on Fri Jun 2nd 2006 at 1:12am
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Posted 2006-06-02 1:12am
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just a quick tid bit, you can place the camera in the 2D view of
hammer, plus you can place more than one and switch between them.
play with the camera tool + ctrl, alt, & shift
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by FatStrings on Fri Jun 2nd 2006 at 1:38am
FatStrings
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Posted 2006-06-02 1:38am
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well thanks to steam hammer is pissing me off
it keeps having stupid "glitches", for lack of better words, and it takes me 30 minutes to and hour to update steam every time, if im even that lucky
Re: 3D view navigation Posted by Captain P on Fri Jun 2nd 2006 at 12:17pm
Captain P
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Posted 2006-06-02 12:17pm
1370 posts 1995 snarkmarks Registered: Nov 6th 2003 Occupation: Game-programmer Location: Netherlands
I prefer Hammers system as well. Modelling tools are a bit different in nature, in that they're usually (well, I do know people who create levels with 3DS Max... :S) used to create single objects so a camera that rotates around and focusses on a single point seems a fair choice, but I always miss a free-look camera in modelling packages.

Ideally, I want an easy to move and rotate camera, that allows fluid movement. Roll control isn't too important for me, in fact it disorients me easily.
The best thing would be to offer some camera configurations. Something that happens way too little. It's not too difficult to implement it if your camera can already rotate and move, so why doesn't it happen more often? A setting that allows you to toggle between focus-cam and free-cam mode, and customizable controls... should make almost everyone happy, right? :smile:
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