I don't believe in God

nickel, im impressed.....that has to be your best set of postings to date....informative, articulate, and even the self narratives are good....well done sir.... :wink:

as for the topic, you guys pretty much know my views...ill abstain.

Doc B... :dodgy:

Dr Brasso said:
nickel, im impressed.....that has to be your best set of postings to date....informative, articulate, and even the self narratives are good....well done sir.... :wink:

One decent day, does not make a preacher be.

If Nickel can keep his panties from forming to many knots over the next month or so... Then I'll consider his debt paid.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I'm not a religious person, and don't believe in God, or any other supreme being(s), but I do think that that we all have a personal religion of sorts.

We formulate our own morals and standards, that keep us on the straight and narrow. If someone chooses to follow an organised religion for that purpose, then so be it. That's all religion is anyway - a way to suggest and enforce a better way of living.

True, some religions may be misunderstood or interpreted in negative ways, rather than as they were intended...but that's human nature.

I have a question to ask...at the end of the day, does it really matter if 'God' exists?

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You Got To Get Through What You've Got To Go Through To Get What You Want But You Got To Know What You Want To Get Through What You Got To Go Through

Apparently.

yes, i think it does.....its a thing that helps get folks thru life, and with basicly good intentions....some drink to ease the pain, do dope in one form or another, or check in at the local "bellevue".....whatever gets them thru the day, without hurting me and mine....and them.....selfish?...maybe....but im old and jaded, and cynical.....sorry.

Doc B.. :dodgy:

I'd like to take this opportunity to explain a theory about infinity
that I've formed. In each dimension(I'll use 1st, 2nd and 3rd,
since i have examples), by going into the next dimension up, you can
find a sort of infinity that works like a circle: if you go far enough
in one direction, you'll end up where you started.

If you're in the first dimension, you can go in a circle, and after an appropriate distance, you'll be back where you started.

If you're in the second dimension, you can go across a sphere, and you'l end up where you started.

Can this apply to the third and fourth dimensions? If it does, that's pretty damn trippy.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

The only thing religious about non-believing is that we share common morals. Assuming that the non-believing person is of a good persuasion. I can assume that at least for this website, that we do not have any Satanist present?

If so, and I am not holding anything against this religion, then I also assume that the non-believers whom share the Satanistic viewpoint is also of "Moral"

I think what I am trying vainly to say is, you do not have,nor need to be religious to have a soul made of pure gold... or tarnished aluminum as with my position in life. :sad:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Jesus even said (I can't think of the exact quote), that sacrifices are less important than helping your fellow man.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

[edit in response to Adam]

I don't think so, from what I know about heaven you don't die and
appear as yourself in heaven and chit chat with god. You "join"
heaven, you become part of heaven. There is no memory of earth
(correct me if I'm wrong here nickle, dark, etc.)

If that's the case, I don't see much difference between that, and your
brain shutting off, and your body turning to dust, becoming the little
bits of the universe. From a religious and non-religious point of
view you do about the same thing. Only difference is what you
re-join. Heaven or the Universe.

Whats weird for me is being an unbeliever in God, yet I firmly believe in afterlife. My view on ghosts and ghostly apparitions is rock solid. I do not doubt for a moment that such beings exist.

I just do not believe that the top slot in the hierarchy of the universe is held by a singular being such as God.

If I had to say, that would be my primary reason for being a non-believer.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Whats weird for me is being an unbeliever in God, yet I firmly
believe in afterlife. My view on ghosts and ghostly apparitions is rock
solid. I do not doubt for a moment that such beings exist.
I just do not believe that the top slot in the hierarchy of the universe is held by a singular being such as God.

If I had to say, that would be my primary reason for being a non-believer.

I share a similar kind of belief, though I'm more and more leaning toward dead = dead.

I feel like its a possibility for us to exist past this life. I
remember reading about the possibility that electrical charges out in
space could have the same consciousness that our brain has. kinda
like the concept of a soul? I'd like to think so

In my mind when you die you rot in the ground. The whole concept of an afterlife is to make people feel like they're working for something better in the end. In my opinion most of these religious beliefs were a way to keep poor people in line.

Does it matter at the end of the day? No. But at the end of your life, If you are not doing the right thing (providing that beleivers ARE right) then it's gonna matter a LOT. Hell does not sound like a cool place in any sense of the word "cool." lol

As for heaven, it's a very confusing concept even for learned Christians. We don't have that much information on what heaven is or is like. We hear "streets paved with Gold" but Who knows if that is figurative or literal.

I guess you can think of it this way: An object must exist in four dimensions to actually exist (with the debateable exception of "2-dimensional" things they're currently studying). An object must have Length, Breadth, Depth, and Duration (because if an object does not exist for any amount of time, it never existed, hehe) I think that heaven is our ceasing to BE in the first three visible dimensions. When an object is in a non-physical dimension such as time, and lacks any substance, there is nothing about it to change (time is only measureable by change), thus time itself does not affect the object. That is why the bible says "I have placed eternity in the hearts of men." meaning that we have some propensity to be able to exist or be eternity. The bible also says about God, "1000 years is as a day, and a day is as 1000 years." This explains the lack of time in such a place.

Sure eternity is hard to fathom, maybe impossible, but thinking of it that way helps me to understand better. I guess hell would be just like heaven, only you don't get a travel chess set. JK, I think it's probably some sort of spiritual separation of your time-energy-being AKA "soul" and God.

BTW, I'm glad you liked my posts. I like it that we all are not bashing. lol

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

What?

Do you guys even understand WHAT a dimension is?
Or dimensionality? How about fractal dimensions? You guys sound ridiculous.

Next you're going to say Ghosts radiate EM fields. (As many people seem to believe)

"James, is that the CMB"
"No, that's just all the ghosts from all over the universe"

Give me a break.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

I'm not talking about dimensions as in "alternate realities." Dimensions as in "A physical property, such as mass, length, time, or a combination thereof, regarded as a fundamental measure or as one of a set of fundamental measures of a physical quantity."

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

DrGlass said:
I share a similar kind of belief, though I'm more and more leaning toward dead = dead.

I have had first hand experience with... A presence.. For lack of a better word.

None of that movie rendition corpse stuff. I mean, there was someone there, I couldn't see.

Anyway, unless you guys really want to hear weirded out stuff, I'll save that adventure for another time.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

As far as I know, all that is said about heaven in that there are no tears or suffering. It may be that in heaven one does remember what happened in there past, but it no longer has any weight on their life.

I can tell you french toast, at least for Christianity, it was not made to keep poor people in line. It did however, get exploted that way, but Christianity is a personal relationship with God. That is all it is. That is it's core, and that is the only way to get to heaven. That is a point I have tried to get across, God doesn't want anything you can do. He just wants you.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

I'm not talking about dimensions as in "alternate realities." Dimensions as in "A physical property, such as mass, length, time, or a combination thereof, regarded as a fundamental measure or as one of a set of fundamental measures of a physical quantity."

So, how is the fourth dimension (which is time, by the way) in your opinion ... death. You said heaven would be existing in the fourth dimension ... without physical property ... based on what? Some random idea that popped into your head? I just don't understand where'd you'd get an idea like this and actually have enough to back it up even enough for you to believe yourself!

I'm not saying it isn't possible, it just doesn't make any sense why you'd come to that conclusion. The entire idea that you exist ... yet don't ... makes no sense. For example, lets say you're this supposed specter who can experience time, but nothing physical ... how can they hear or see anything? At all. Radiation is still under the guise of "physical".

Just to note, Stadric's description is completly bizarre and unfounded.

It doesn't make sense to beleive stuff you made up (yourself) with no actual evidance! Everything else is arguable, since the source has been lost due to mis-translation and mis-communications over time.

If I woke up one day and thought it'd make sense if everyone (men and women) who was truly evil had a beard. Along the lines of you cannot produce the facial hair glands UNTIL you have reached some sort of Evil puberty (which implies many other things), my point is, even if I believed that ... does that make it true? Of course not. So, that's the reason why I'm asking.

Start makin' sense, boi.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Dimensions are ways to move, as is my understanding. You can move
right and left on a numberline(1D), you can move right, left, up, and
down on graph paper(2D), you can move right, left, up, down, in, and
out on a 3D graph(3D, duh!), and you can do all of those, and move (at
least) forward in time in the fourth dimension. I don't know
about the fifth because I can't comprehend it.

Unless you've got some highly-technical, Einstein-esque description, I'd like to hear the definition you're operating on.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

I didn't say that the fourth dimension was death. I said it was time, and in death we only exist in the one dimension of time. Since in this theory we exist in a state of nothing physical and no physical change, there would be no sight, or sound or anything like that. When atheists say there's nothing after death, they may be right.

Now I don't necessarily beleive this theory, but it would work, I think. There's plenty that we still don't understand.

That's why it may not make so much sense. Because I just made the whole heaven thing up on the spot. We really don't hear much of anything about heaven really.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Dark_Kilauea you've hit it right on the head, thats the most important part of being a Christian. Get rid of all the crap that many Christian based religions surround it with, and at the core its just a relationship with God.

One thing that has been worrying me about heaven is that, in some descriptions in the Bible, its described as singing and praising God for eternity. Now for me, the guy who helps out doing other stuff like overheads, lights etc in church rather than signing, if thats all heaven is, it doesn't sound especially appealing. To be sure its still a lot better than hell, but to a certain extent signing and praising for the rest of eternity sounds a bit like hell to me. Of course that is assuming that my character/personality remains exactly the same as it is now, which I doubt, but if it did, I just hope there are lights and overheads in Heaven :smile: .

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

YEah, that whole "praising for eternity" thing sounds a bit tedious. But fortunately for us, the bible never mentions that. It's one of those things that people TELL you, but it's just completely unfounded!

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Heaven isn't a place, it's state of being, one free from want, need,
inhibition, or lack of information. You don't need anything,
because you don't need anything. You don't want to know anything,
because you know everything. You don't need to do anything,
because there is no desire to, and that's because there is no need for
that desire.

The best way to be satisfied is to not need anything in the first place.

That's the best explanation I can give.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

A number line would be two dimensions (a point is one dimension, as best as we can comprehend). What would stop that line from being a circle? An Einstein description, since he believed everything had a "spirit" (I forget the name for that, starts with a 'p'), would tell you that every object was another "dimension". Probably the most bizarre thing he said, but it has a place. Especially if you study fractal dimensions (It's like folding a piece of paper in half ... for however many iterations, if you then find the dimensionality of that ... it'd be between 2 and 3 ... it requires knowledge of using logarithms)

Nickel, how can you exist period without any physical attribute ... if you can't think, feel, NOTHING ... isn't that another way of saying you no longer exist even in thought? At the least, thought could be measured in electrical current ... which has a physical size.

Which is why I say your explanation is odd. But, it seems like it isn't yours, so okay.

My question still hasn't been answered though. No one said why they came to these conclusions. All I'm seeing is reiterated previously stated ideas.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Wikipedia has a decent explanation of dimension in both the mathematical and physical sense. Not really sure wtf dimension has do with what you are all talking about, so I assume you are using the term to describe something different from the traditional "dimension" used in math and physics.

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http://maze5.net

[edit in response to Adam]

I don't think so, from what I know about heaven you don't die and
appear as yourself in heaven and chit chat with god. You "join"
heaven, you become part of heaven. There is no memory of earth
(correct me if I'm wrong here nickle, dark, etc.)

If that's the case, I don't see much difference between that, and your
brain shutting off, and your body turning to dust, becoming the little
bits of the universe. From a religious and non-religious point of
view you do about the same thing. Only difference is what you
re-join. Heaven or the Universe.

A concept similar to heaven can work without god: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000F6Z586 This is a very weird sci-fi book that deals a lot with moral and transcendence... and in some way life after death. I don't get too excited about ideas like this but it makes me think.

Dimensional Heaven is the place the old singing group went to. Everyone knows that. :rolleyes:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Crono, I guess it'd be like an out-of-body experience, where your consiousness is there, but your body's not. I dunno, It was a spur of the moment thing.

All i know for sure is taht the bible doesnt say that we are gonna be praising for eternity.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Just an example of how little of what's actually going on we can actually perceive.

Instructions on the picture(56K friendly-ish)

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Stadric your picture is broken... the circles keep moving...

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Second funniest thing I've heard all day.

Funniest thing: "my mother may have taken drugs, but at least she didn't listen to music"

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

It needs to be a .GIF to work - if it is a JPEG, the eye-raping JPEG interference rapes your eyes every time, detracting significantly from the effect.

It needs to be a .GIF to work - if it is a JPEG, the eye-raping JPEG interference rapes your eyes every time, detracting significantly from the effect.

It works for me!

eliminated quotes and .. just rewrote

i think it's important for all religions to try and disprove eachother , How else will we find the ULTIMATE truths. Obviously a truth cannot be disproven :razz: . unless .. the proof is false.

Science on another note , is merely an explanation of the world around us , and noted .. it's subject to change .... so try not to put TOO much faith in it.

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.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net

Which reminds me. I was listening to talk radio out of Oklahoma City yesterday. There was this Creationist dummy on there trying to give his rendition of why Evolution is bulls**t and Creation is the only truth.

I got so pissed that I was seeing red because this guy was so stupid that to be on the radio was criminal, but what was worse, some poor fool might just believe him.

Anyway, (and I am paraphrasing here because I do not have total recall where stupid is the main point)

His thinking: "If you are asked about evolution, forget it because its "WRONG"

Evolution is by definition, a series of mutations. Each successful mutation is passed onto its offspring and eventually after many new mutations a totally new species is formed. THIS IS A LIE! (his words not mine)

If mutations were the key, it would be the same as writing books with typo's in them. After enough books were written, a totally new language would be formed. (again this is his reasoning)

Its about now that I am getting really pissed because his example is so ludicrous... Then my sense of humor comes to my rescue and I am laughing so hard that I can barely drive. I am thinking "This guy has obviously never participated in a chatroom before. If he had, he'd have realized that typos had already created another language in L33t speach... And it didn't take a decade, let alone a millennium or more"

I was so happy afterward that I forgot all about the asshole and his creationist crap.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Which reminds me. I was listening to talk radio out of Oklahoma City yesterday. There was this Creationist dummy on there trying to give his rendition of why Evolution is bulls**t and Creation is the only truth.
I got so pissed that I was seeing red because this guy was so stupid that to be on the radio was criminal, but what was worse, some poor fool might just believe him.

Creationism is where my tolerance towards religion stops. The whole point of Creationism is to disprove science (and evolution is among the most irrefutable "theories" in history). These people are crazy and I find it discomforting to see them having such a big base of followers in the USA. Teaching the Bible in biology? wtf?

I've always thought that the Big Bang theory was something that made the idea of Creationism possible. I mean, the entire point of creationism is that ... at some point God created the ability for our lives to exist. I don't understand why it would matter WHEN? I'll be quite honest with you and if this is the case, I'll thank "it" for making Hydrogen and Helium earlier than myself!

It's a silly idea. It seems a lot of people think of "existence" as "Earth" ... or even the country they live in and it's simply not true. We're very small in comparison to everything else. (It's up to you to figure if that makes you feel insignificant or special and unique)

But to these type of people apparently this supposed being is almighty and powerful ... but limited to their personal imagination. Even though, by their reckoning ... God created the very idea of imagination ... is it just me or does this line of logic make no sense?

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

this is the catholics say on evolution , It could be possible , but it must be guided by the hand of god. And the minute that monkey became man god breathed a soul unto him.

personally i have a few problems with evolution , but i wouldn't completly rule it out .... as god can do wtf he wants :razz:

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.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net

I've always thought that the Big Bang theory was something that made the idea of Creationism possible.

Thats exactly what I think Crono. I don't know why Christians get so
upset about the idea of the Big Bang and even evolution (barring having
evolved from monkeys, just darwin smoking crack). The big bang in
particular sounds like proof to me of the sudden creation of the
universe by God. The thing that many Christians get hung up on is a
literal interpretation of the Bible, that he created everything in
seven days, but science is telling us that the earth has been around
longer than the Bible allows for. But 7 days in God days might be 7
billion years, a blink of an eye for him. The bible wasn't written at
the time of the creation of everything, it happened ages afterwards,
and still a long time before now, so its doubtful that even if they
knew exactly how long it took, that they would be able to comprehend
that amount of time.

I laugh everytime religion claims to disprove science, and science
claims to disprove religion, because it sure as hell looks to me that
they're supporting each other.

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Ham and Jam Contributor
http://www.hamandjam.org

'Get your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!'

Well truth goes in hand with truth :wink:

totally agree with ye agent :biggrin:

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.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net

I think of science as asking "how?" while religion asks "why?" - they're really just two perfectly compatible questions. In fact, one of my best high school biology teachers was a firm Christian.

On a similar subject: though I'm not religious at all, I think the Bible should definitely be taught in public schools - not as divine truth perhaps, but instead considered as a literary work. Entire elements of Western society are based off this book; it's a shame some people (including myself) were never really exposed to it.

Reaper: To those who know, you sound so silly here. Only a select few wierdos IRL, and the misrepresentations of Christians on TV try to disprove science with religion. Anyone who knows anything knows that science has the ability to prove something almost indefinitely. And with the exception of "miracles" such as turning water into wine, Science proves the bible and the bible proves science. The bible says "God created everything" It doesn't say he used a magic spell or some cheat codes. He could have used the big bang, and I think that he did.

I think evolution is a real possibility. Not the successive evolution, where one species comes from another (like humans and Dogs from the same fish), But i think that species in themselves change over time.

I really just don;t see why when people think of Christians, they think of the crazy ones on TV, who tell you that evolution is false, and not real-life ones like me and many others who know that the bible is not anti-science.

In short, you have a very distorted view of what Christians are really like. Much more distorted than a REAL Christian's view on science.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Agreed nickleplate,

Which is why I sometimes like these kinds of threads, they give me a chance to explain what I really believe and think. Many of those who call themselves Christians fail to understand that the bible is a guide, not a law. If the bible says 7 days, it doesn't nessesarily mean 7 days in our sence.

Christianity is about you and God, I can't stress this enough. It's a relationship, not a way of living.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

The thing that separates "Creationists" from "Evolutionists" is the ability to wrap your mind around the concept of just how long things take.

The main reason so few people can accept that Humans came from lower forms, such as primates is because they refuse to accept just how long "A LONG TIME" really is.

Millions of years is barely long enough in some instances for changes to occur.

Face it, there really are very few who can wrap their mind around 4.5 billion years. Thats from the theoretical "DAY #1" of Earths existence to now.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Dark: It really IS a way of living. If you feel the conviction in your heart when you START the relationship with God, you will change the way you live accordingly.

And don't get confused with the "laws and guidelines" thing. There are plenty of LAWS that we must follow. You can't choose which ones of those you want to obey. However, the "days" that genesis talks about may be taken figuratively.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Reaper: To those who know, you sound so silly here. Only a select few wierdos IRL, and the misrepresentations of Christians on TV try to disprove science with religion. Anyone who knows anything knows that science has the ability to prove something almost indefinitely. And with the exception of "miracles" such as turning water into wine, Science proves the bible and the bible proves science. The bible says "God created everything" It doesn't say he used a magic spell or some cheat codes. He could have used the big bang, and I think that he did.

I never said that most Christians are Creationists. I don't know how you managed to interprete my post in that way. :sad: I'm not saying that Christians in general are like that. Still, a majority of the people I know are Christians and they are rather open-minded.

I just don't think that the bible should be mixed into a science class. Religion is something private. I could argue that a buddhist kid (or, hey why not, an atheist one!) shouldn't be taught an aspect of a different religion in biology. There is a reason why there is no religion class in schools (there is one in Austria, btw.)

I don't agree with "science" and "religion/believe" mixing very well. They just... don't. Science works with evidence, believe with feelings. Scientists collected tons of undeniable evidence to proof the theory of evolution (fossils, studies on endogenous species on islands, ect.). Creationism (or, in politically correct words, the "Intelligent Design" concept) pretends to work scientifically (with evidence) but it jumps into believe at points that are unacceptable in scientific work. It doesn't even qualify as a proper "scientific theory". The only "evidence" is that the complexibility of nature cannot be coincidence. Why? Just so. If it really wants to go there I can just ask a simple question: If it's impossible for something as complex as this world to exist without a god who created it - who created god? Is he coincidence then?

It doesn't work. Science and Religion/Believe are two completely different things. Opposites, if you will. Maybe, because both are practised by men, you find similarities in how people respond to the two. But no, science and belief are completely seperate concepts.

I don't know how to really explain myself, but in no way should the bible be taught/preached/whatever you want to call it in school. The Bible is a book that some people believe in, but you can't use it to try and dispute many things about science.

In my mind the bible has no merit in todays society. It was designed to keep people in line. The whole point of religion is to try and explain why things happen. People had no idea why it rained even, so they created Gods and their own way of proving it, but at this point in time nobody can dispute why it rains from science's explanations.

Even the Bible isn't the divine word of God. They've discovered books that weren't entered into the Bible because whoever was looking over the writing decided not to put them in. If this is Gods word, that wouldn't make any sense.

It just kind of baffles me that people still support this idea. Now I wasn't brought up being told what to believe, and I think that's why I came to this conclusion. Most people who are religious are brought up being told that's what it's about.

I just... it doesn't make sense to me.

French Toast said:
They've discovered books that weren't entered into the Bible because whoever was looking over the writing decided not to put them in. If this is Gods word, that wouldn't make any sense.

Is the Apocrypha technically God's word, or in fact any of the gospels? If you take "God's word" literally, then the different view points cause contradictions. Anyone who's read or seen Beckett's "Waiting for Godot" may remember that only one of the gospels claims that the person on the cross next to Jesus was saved.

The religion and morality debate looks like where this is heading, since I would argue the reason for teaching the bible in schools is because it has had a huge effect on moral thinking. Even if you don't believe the bible to be true, I would argue that it (and particularly the New Testament - not so much the Old Testament) still contains a lot of relevant moral content.

Interestingly on this topic, a few people argue that "An eye for an eye" was supposed to encourage punishment and retribution. It was actually put there to limit the punishments that people imposed, rather than encourage them, so absurdly harsh punishments weren't used for minor crimes.

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My site

No, Science and God are not mutually exclusive. All you need to do is have the desire to understand the systems, and how they work together. I know for a fact that Christianity does not contradict science and that Science only helps point the way toward God.

So many people judge the Bible and its readers before they understand. The apocrypha (or deuterocanonical texts) are recognised as "historically semi-accurate" but are not recognised as "the word of God." It is known to historians that these "gospels" such as the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, and the Gospel of St. Thomas were written up to 300 years after all the other Gospels and many were written for the express purpose of furthering Gnosticism, (the davinci code beleifs) It was decided in light of historical evidence not to include them. Because they WEREN'T texts written under divine inspiration. Its the same as me writing something today and them not including it in the bible. It's not like they WERE in there and then they got kicked out, they just weren't included when it was all put together.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Just in case no one mentions it, that was a well thought out reply Frenchy. I share a few of your points.

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The best things in life, aren't things.