Stem Cells and Politics

Why would I be annoyed?

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Crono said:
Why would I be annoyed?

Gods, do you have short term memory issues or do I?

You're always going on about how I say this or that without proving my point..

Although I admit that sometimes I fall way short of proving anything, From my point of view, the damned issue requires no proof. I just cannot fathom why some of you cannot grasp it as easily as I.

Oh well, it just seemed like a perfect idiom to describe "Orpheus"

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Your generalizations and context free statements are difficult to decipher.

I don't think I've ever "made" you prove a point. Just show evidence if you spit out "facts" (which, in your case, tend to be opinions).

I don't see why you can't just accept that the things you think and say are opinions and that using them as the basis for a factual 'argument' of any kind doesn't work.

Nothing is wrong with an opinion, you and everyone else is entitled to them ...

There is nothing to prove with an opinion any way. You may be able to support why you think that with other documentation ... but ... I don't see why you've got your panties in a bunch.

As far as labeling your opinion as an axiom ... I wouldn't agree, but if it makes you feel comfortable fine: but be aware that eventually most axioms are either actually found to be true in all testable cases yet infinitely large that they can not be proven or disproven. Whether, that's a statement, or a mathematical proof. It doesn't matter. Through this process, I can find a counter example for your "philosophical truth", which doesn't mean you're wrong ... but it does mean that the statement is not an axiom. :razz:

Honestly, I'd say it's more of an observed social correlation more than anything else.

But I know that's not what you want to hear ... or is it?

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Sometimes, albeit rarely, facts do begin as opinions Crono.

Just because I am alone in my views most times, hardly reduces them to less than factual... I admit though, that many of my beliefs are unpopular and/or not widely shared.

Actually, I cannot imagine any fact, beginning in any other way than someones opinion.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

lol, you're hardly a lone fighter with many of your views, Orpheus. It seems like there are more opposers to stem cell research than supporters.

---

Why snark works.

Gwil said:
It's a case by case basis but if we can seek to eradicate certain diseases (eg Downs Syndrome or Muscular Distrophy) I encourage research and advancement under certain circumstances.

That's the problem... Stem cells woul only HEAL a person who already HAS the disease... It would only keep said person alive long enough to pass more if the disease-gene along into the gene pool. thus weakening humanity. I say we need to CURE the diseases, not just fix them on a by-case basis with a stopgap like stem cells.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

And learning more about a disease through treatment doesn't push for a cure?

Nickelplate said:
That's the problem... Stem cells woul only HEAL a person who already HAS the disease... It would only keep said person alive long enough to pass more if the disease-gene along into the gene pool. thus weakening humanity. I say we need to CURE the diseases, not just fix them on a by-case basis with a stopgap like stem cells.

I agree with you in theory but, I'd hate to have to explain to some kid: "Sorry bud, we might have helped you with stem cells but then of course you might have procreated and passed on your problem"
Kinda cold hearted if you ask me.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Nickel, that doesn't make complete sense. I'll touch on it in a second though. Embryonic stem cells have the ability to regrow areas by replicating what is around them. That's why embryonic stem cells are so valuable, they're like a blank canvas, so to speak.

This is how I understand them, I could be wrong, though.

As far as I can tell, the only advantage of stem cell research would be to either rejuvenate dead cells (adult stem cells), which some have claimed to be able to do to some degree (this could stop something like a failing heart, that isn't quite damaged, but just old). The other option is to regrow small parts of the body that we cannot replace. The optic nerve, for example. Almost any nerve for that matter. Holes in organs. Um, broken bones, possibly. It's all formed from cells, so these things can mold to that surrounding and fix the problem. What about paralysis?
I'm sure it could be used to help cure a disease as well, but it doesn't sound like it'd be as "easy". But it's of course, possible, because of that "everything in your body comes from cells" thing.

I think, the benefits outweigh the "oh no, it's a potential child" argument, especially because you can get them from the thousands of woman who are getting abortions. You can also harvest sperm and eggs and make your own, the couples would still be able to have a child if they want. Or, what if some couple doesn't want to have kids anymore? What about women who get hysterectomies, their ovaries are still fine (as long as they haven't gone through menopause yet or there isn't a larger problem).

My point is, it isn't a simple argument that "it could be a potential child" because look at it this way: it's not like the people making the kid were going to keep it or let it live anyway. In addition to this, they're finding ways to harvest the em. stem cells without destroying the embryo.

By all means, someone speak up if I'm not correct on this, otherwise: I don't really see the problem.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

well, Crono. IF abortions are going to be legal, as I've said, we might as well not waste dead-kid cells.

Frenchy, fixing individual cases is not going to help find a cure. That's like saying "You can fix a punctured tire with a patch, and patches will help us find a cure for nails on the road."

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Except this is a disease and not a piece of rubber. The thing you're fighting is alive, and each case is individual. By studying these cases to cure the patient, you learn new things about the disease that could help you find an immunization or something similar.

but each case is different, so there can't be ONE vaccine for it all.

Oh, and how is it that a single-celled germ in someone's bloodstream is "alive" and a multicelled human embryo is not? bulls**t.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Why do you object to killing multicelled human embryo's versus killing a virus?

French Toast said:
Why do you object to killing multicelled human embryo's versus killing a virus?

Frenchy.. You are plucking my last nerve with your inane comments. I swear, you have reached a new low. Are you truly competing with Nickle for "Foot in mouth" award?

What I fail to understand is, how can you take the rights away from a future human so easily? I mean, I know your stand on homosexuality. You seem to hand out rights on truly odd directions, so why would you condemn a child?

Now, I am trying to be patient with you but, if you persist in posting such drivel, we are going to have problems.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

So not agreeing with you is drivel?

A future human is not yet a human. I don't object to killing of livings things if they don't have a conscionse(sp?). An unborn child does not know it's a child, you're not hurting it, you're not causing it any pain. Especially if the parent doesn't want it anyways, would waiting for it to become conscious and living that life not be worse?

I believe religion is where this separates, and I honestly believe that. I believe birth and the coming to life of a human is a mere biological function, nothing more. I believe the child isn't 'alive' so to speak until it's born. I don't believe in things like 'souls' or things like that.

I'm not condemning a child, so please do not put words in my mouth, or twist them to make me sound sinister. I am suggesting we utilize the clump of cells that can revolutionize science and medicine.

sighs and counts to 10

Frenchy, I am not rewriting your history. NOR am I greatly concerned with your views. What I am worried about is your poor excuse for rationality. You actually seem hell bent to say something more stupid than Nickel does.

I have said it many times. I agree for the most part with the ideals Nickel has I just cannot fathom why he wants to cut his own feet off so that he has nothing to stand on in every discussion.

Now, you are in some sort of a contest to see just how dumb you can string the 26 letters of the alphabet together into idiocy.

You can be pro or con anything you with but try not to be dumb.

Whatever your policy is on "WHEN" a cell cluster becomes human is truly unimportant. What is important is that you never compare cell clusters to virus's. Eventually the cluster will become a human. Eventually the virus, will remain a virus.

Thats my point.

And yes, if you disagree with me by slapping my face with stupid, then its drivel.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Your holier than thou act is wearing thin when you ask me questions, I give you my honest answers and you demean my opinions with bulls**t. One can't win an argument with you, similarly to the way one can't win an argument with a rock, so I leave you with my opinions, whether you wish to listen to them and talk like an adult or not, I don't care.

Nevermind. Just forget it.

Someday you'll grow up and prolly be just as stupid as now, but at least you won't be able to blame it on your age anymore.

Its always odd when stupid people blame the ones who point out their stupidity for their own shortcomings. :rolleyes:

I made it perfectly clear that your position on the subject wasn't where you erred. You are just choosing to be a prick and in doing so, attempting to draw me into a confrontation where none should exist.

This is a perfect example why children should be seen, and never heard.

My fondest wish were that you remained a cell cluster. Your being born ruined your chance to do something beneficial for humanity.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Disproportionately harsh words Orpheus. In the future, you should start your posts with your rebuttal of the actual content of someone's post, instead of leading off with insults. For example, you could and should excise inflammatory comments like these:

Orpheus said:
sighs and counts to 10

Frenchy, I am not rewriting your history. NOR am I greatly concerned with your views. What I am worried about is your poor excuse for rationality. You actually seem hell bent to say something more stupid than Nickel does.

I have said it many times. I agree for the most part with the ideals Nickel has I just cannot fathom why he wants to cut his own feet off so that he has nothing to stand on in every discussion.

Now, you are in some sort of a contest to see just how dumb you can string the 26 letters of the alphabet together into idiocy.

You can be pro or con anything you with but try not to be dumb.

...and just handle the issues. Your post wouldn't have incited Frenchy's response if you had just said:

Orpheus said:
Whatever your policy is on "WHEN" a cell cluster becomes human is truly unimportant. What is important is that you never compare cell clusters to virus's. Eventually the cluster will become a human. Eventually the virus, will remain a virus.

Thats my point.

Orpheus, I think when you peel back the layers of condescending agism and boil down your posts to their actual points, these threads have more of a chance to remain civil debates instead of degenerating into truly ugly exchanges of insults. Obviously it takes two people to argue, but when one side is being constantly baited by direct insults it's not hard to see why these things degenerate like they do.

While I'm sure everyone involved would like to have their last words, I feel like more feelings and reputations will be hurt in the process. I'm locking this squabble up and I will refrain from posting anything political in the future.