Nickelplate said:
Unless that person is a Christian, in which case we ought to ridicule that expert of his field.

Not you too? :rolleyes:

Anyway, a quote from the link "veterans" Doc provided:

To delve even further, as Im standing there watching the towers
collapse, next to me is one of my good friends and a former commander
of the Army Corps of Engineers. He is a demolitions expert. He was
even more surprised than me. When the towers collapsed he kept saying
this isnt right, this isnt right. When I asked him what he was
talking about he told me that steel buildings dont fall down that
way. Even if they are struck by objects; he went on to say that in
theory if the top 10 floors were hit, then possibly just that part of
the building would fall over and off, but the rest would remain
standing. When I asked him, not understanding the implications of
demolitions, he told me that it looked as if they were brought down by
controlled demolitions. I was utterly amazed, but after he said that
it did sort of appear that way.

I was an Engineer in the Army for five years from 1980 to 1985. I was among other things a demolition specialist. I can honestly say that engineers in the Army, know little or nothing about the structure of buildings as pertains to erecting them. I can say that all of us are trained in calculating the demolition of them though.

I disagree with the quote above. I have nothing to back up that comment other than my training, which as I mentioned, does not include erecting buildings.

There isn't an Engineer alive who can just look at a building collapsing and say for sure that it was a bomb, or even a series of them.

However, I do mention that anyone who has ever seen a building brought down by explosives that the pattern of the blasts do NOT look anything like what happened to the towers during its collapse. The pattern is always "Inside to out and top to bottom." granted, the towers fell from top to bottom but the damage was located at the top and of course the fall would originate from that location.

IMO, the towers fell by the domino effect. The upper portion fell onto the undamaged lower portion and caused it to continue onward to the ground by the simple act of accumulated debris and seismic vibrations from all that material crashing about.

For my part its cut and dry. The towers fell due to structural damage that exceeded its ability to cope.

/story

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Orpheus said:
The pattern is always "Inside to out and top to bottom."

WTC7

Run it a few times. Notice the top dip inward at the middle. Notice the explosions running up the right hand side.

---

Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

My last piece of advice then I'm through with it.

If they're any online, look at some real buildings brought down by explosives. There are hundreds if not thousands of reinforced cable wires scattered throughout them. It would be nearly impossible to camouflage them since they run in all directions for hundreds of feet.

In order to bring down a building without cables, it would require an incredible amount of explosives. On the order of bringing down any neighboring building as well... Tons in fact.

It is also impossible to silence the distinct and separate explosive detonations.

There were none.

Study some REAL BUILDINGS brought down.

Doc, I am 100% sure. You're mistaken and you are to stubborn to see it. If the movies are available and they still do not convince you, then you are a lost cause.

Completely and utterly a lost cause.

Now, I am done with this. I have nothing new to add. If you continue I will be obliged to encourage Frenchy to have your ass put in a sling. He, is quite capable that way. :rolleyes:

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Frenchy, leave Doc alone.

I think you could spare your energy, too, Orpheus.

---

Why snark works.

From the get-go on this thread, all I've tried to do is put out a little information for people to 'step back and look a little closer at the evidence.'

I haven't said anything to personally attack anyone or threaten someone with putting their ass in a sling.

I hope someone, maybe even a visitor to this site, saw something I wrote and decided to research a bit. Hopefully they looked and came away with a different viewpoint. If it happened, I am glad.

If this has even made someone stop for a moment and wonder, then I did my job.

Since it's now turning into a jab and poke match from some people, I will leave. I just hope it helped someone. Take care and good luck.

---

Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

reaper47 said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Frenchy, leave Doc alone.

I think you could spare your energy, too, Orpheus. </div></div>

No, this reminds me of Satchmo. He was so f**king sure of himself that he looked more and more like an ass with each reply. He even went so far as to insinuate that it was a mid-western problem, not a nationwide one. How f**king egocentric is that?

I know with a certainty what I said to Satchmo was correct. I am nearly as sure about this topic as well. There is enough doubt not to cause a fight with it however, tis why I gave Doc a way out with each post I made.

I at least admit some room for doubt. He is on a crusade to corrupt impressionable minds with his views. There is a line, that shouldn't be crossed, and he is hell bent to make that line unimportant.

Anyway, unless you know Doc's history, its best to be a bit stand-offish. On the surface it appears that I am being harsh. On a much deeper level, its nothing more than standing up to a heretic causing strife within a somewhat calm forum.

In the end, I will always oppose the Satchmo's and Doc Rocks who post here.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Orpheus said:
He is on a crusade to corrupt impressionable minds with his views. There is a line, that shouldn't be crossed, and he is hell bent to make that line unimportant.

My dear Orpheus, Frenchy and Stadric (amongst others), you are in the minority. This isn't my crusade. These aren't my views. There's millions of people who doubt the official 9/11 story. You're saying that millions of people are wrong? You're saying that doubting the official story is wrong?

Research!

I'M saying that its a simple principle to get yer head around....you can take damn near any situation and misconstrue the facts, and manipulate them to your liking....

*quoting Orpheus

For my part its cut and dry. The towers fell due to structural damage that exceeded its ability to cope.

am i losing my mind or did we not hash this out fairly completely in a number of other threads?

the towers were basicly a tube spine up the center, and a trussed structural facad with interlocking wall sections that went up like a jigsaw puzzle...stress loads were carried mainly on the 47 columns in the center tube, and extraneous weight due to flex, sway etc , was transferred to the outet exoskeleton....basicly two support systems in an ingenious design....
one million tons of metal.....now, lets do some general math....the first tower was hit approximately 1/5th of the way down from the top....if the center tube was compromised in any way, the stress loads would be transferred to the nearest adjacent column/support and would exponentially increase the strain on it....metal fatigue in the mid columns would would cause bends, buckling, and or complete failure eventually.....1/5th of the building, on lets say, two thirds of the main support system.....about.....200 thousand tons....holy s**t, thats alot metal.....now envision, a brick being held up by toothpicks.....you push straight down, it offeres much resistance....tip it by a degree or three, it drops like a rock.....

the weight of the upper floors pushes straight down....the strength of the frame is compromised at what...1200 degrees?.....loses half its strength, as per that friggin film....once the cycle of weight and gravity takes over, the steel members pop like toothpicks, and with the force of 200 plus tons, plus the velocity and inertia as it picks up speed, there isnt a damn thin on this earth, save a mountain, that would alter its course once set in motion....its entirely too big, too heavy, and moving too fast....straight down, "like a ton of bricks".....ok....the little poofs of smoke that ya'll are calling detonation points.....take a balloon, fill it with air....push down....what happens? the air is forced out at a rapid and accellerated fashion....same thing in the towers....once the "solidified mass" starts its trek earthward, its the "big hand pushing on the balloon"....and with that much uninterupted force, im actually surprised they didnt find steel beams in the next county....

ill look for the other thread....

Doc B... :dodgy:

You're wasting your breath Brassballs. I also recall what my history books said that when the "world is round" theory first arrived, they too were in the minority as well. Thankfully, the truth came out... Sadly, after a few hundred burnings at the stake.

I guess we're lucky now days. If it were left up to the conspiracy nut cases, we'd be roasting on the spit about now.. :rolleyes:

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Frenchy, leave Doc alone.

I think you could spare your energy, too, Orpheus.

No, [...]

Well, it?s what you always advise us to do :rolleyes:

---

Why snark works.

lee harvey oswald did it. hahaha, right. one man, no conspiracy. conspiracies don't happen in the USA, especially not by governments. anyone that thinks being the C in C of history's largest war machine is something that a power hungry group of conspirators would want to infiltrate needs to have their head looked at, but they may need to have their tinfoil hat removed first, so they're probably a lost cause.

the people that think the system is corrupt and needs changed are seditious dogs, and need to be dragged of to guantanamo for a bit of old fashioned 're-adjustment'.

---

i eat paint

reaper47 said:
Well, it?s what you always advise us to do :rolleyes:

Your English is showing again Reaper. I didn't mean it as NO, I won't shut up. Rather No, this is to much like... Besides, Frenchy was outright attacking, I was continuing in as mild a fashion as I could manage considering the person on the other side of the discussion. :razz:

I've always been kinda split decision with the Oswald thing. I am just a good shot with a rifle and I could put the bullets into JFK's head the same way he did, and from what I heard, he was an excellent marksman... So why couldn't he have done it?

In the end though, I never really gave it enough thought to have an opinion about it. He could have done it, he also might not have.

The biggest problem I have with conspiracy nuts is that they are every bit as annoying as the bible thumpers with regard to their belief system. The more improbable the conspiracy, the more they fight for it.

Its like they always say, nuts only believe in the unprovable, that way you cannot prove them wrong either.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Its like they always say, nuts only believe in the unprovable, that way you cannot prove them wrong either.

</DIV></DIV>

do you have proof of this?

---

i eat paint

What? No means yes in English?

You didn?t shut up, that?s for sure. I just meant that this could go on forever and we?re going circles. I don?t really care what you two are fighting about but I can tell it?s not worth it. Who?s feeding DocRock with all kinds of reason to bring in more and more evidence of 9/11 conspirationality.

My member number, my age... now my English-not-being-my-mother-tongue... I get patronized when posting in every goddamn Snarkpit discussion thread. And they?re everywhere. Stupid s**t. What am I supposed to know about your secret history of mutual hatred? All I?m seeing are grown men fighting about who?s the most stubborn? Once again spamming half a thread. And I DARED to comment this in an ironic statement. Why is it so unthinkable to lock a thread full of the same garbage that derailed at least 10 other threads before? There are better and bigger boards to get my daily dose of controversy and pseudo-argument flaming.

I just feel a strong urge to leave the Snarkpit. It?s not that there?s much enthusiasm left for mapping, also... It?s really no fun at all anymore.

STUPID s**t. Really. Ich halt?s nicht aus.

---

Why snark works.

Ich halt?s nicht aus.

He's speaking in tongues!! covers ears

..really, though, i see where you're coming from. it's unfortunate when humble pie has to smell like a dead horse. =|

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

sighs

Reaper, you're blowing it all out of proportion. You've even left it so that I am not even able to explain so...

Do what you feel makes sense, but sometimes No doesn't mean yes, but often no doesn't mean no either.

Right this moment, After that outburst, I don't really care what you do. You've made your bed, sleep in it, or not.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

As far as I know, this a Hitler - paraphrased - quote:

The bigger the lie, the more easy it is to swallow

While I have reservations about an internal conspiracy to stage attacks
on the World Trade Centre, I do find many honest and correct words in
the questioning of "the War on Terrorism".

The Project for The New American Century is a very worrying document to
be supported by the leader of the "free" world, bordering almost on
Reichstag burning doctrines of the past. Whatever the case, the global
situation is in flux, we're seeing the end of an empire (USA) and the
emergence of a new (Asia). All the troubles brew from this.

So, I have a question ... what's the standard deviation on that statistical result?
Oh what? It doesn't have one?

Yeah, prime stuff.

Before you say, "But CNN and other news studios had similar results", well, I don't trust them either. While they may give their SD/P 0.05 %, they have a habit of producing stories without authors.

Not the best of practices if you want people to believe you.

There's a different between being suspicious of a situation and having concerns with leadership, but to just blatantly jump on the conspiracy theory wagon is bizarre.

To note, Oswald could have realistically committed the assassination. When people call it "magic" it's misleading, if you take in all the facts: angles, heights, distances of people from one another ... how the car was built, the modifications that were made on it for that parade, the incline of the road ... the type of bullet, even down to the type of fitting suit JFK was wearing ... you'll see it's very possible.

But, then again, rhetoric is usually spouted by people whom are misinformed/gullible or are just lying.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Reaper does have a point.
This isn't the first time a thread has been derailed on this or another topic, and this thread didn't even have anything to do with 9/11 at first. My advice to the general population is to do what Bewbies did, and start a new topic instead. "Let's take it outside" should be ringing some bells?
Orph is right, though, English is a pretty f***ed up language, and 'no' can mean something besides 'no' (but not 'know'). I can see where the confusion comes from.

As for old men fighting with each other, be advised to take it all with a grain of salt, Reaper.

/1 dollar & 2 cents :rolleyes:

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Hehe, this was always hilarious. Although I read this in a chain-mail about 5 years ago.

wutchoo talkin bout willis?

---

o

Just in case anyone is interested out there, here is a whole bunch of information related to 9/11. Below ground surface.

This one is definitely worth a watch. Heart-breaking, to say the least.

DocRock said:
Just in case anyone is interested out there, here is a whole bunch of information related to 9/11.

if anyone is interested in it, then I doubt very much that they'll think to look for it in a thread about john cleese thats posted on a mapping site.

---

i eat paint

what do you think the link to other sites is then?

and yea, I know what you meant.

I was kinda hoping the last post in this thread would be Gary Coleman =/

If people want to believe a guy in a cave orchestrated a plot to attack the US that eluded the NSA and that NORAD was taking a coffee break with their thumbs up their asses the morning it was carried out, and that planes can cause skyscrapers to collapse in on their own footprints, someone posting links on an internet forum isn't gonna change their minds.

---

o

To be blunt, this "we are untouchable" attitude many americans seem to have is exasperating. It's hard to defend yourself from an enemy that you don't really know exists, and if he does, then where, when and how he's going to hit you. Don't forget that NORAD and the NSA are run by people who are can easily become victims of routine.
With this, I will now boycott this thread.

[edited]

Think of it like this: how could DocRock possibly know some hidden truth about 9/11 when the plain truth that his maps were horrible always escaped him?

Cassius, the eternal enfant terrible.

Reaper, don't take Orph too seriously. He can be viciously stubborn and proud but he has a good heart. He drives off many ppl but i think if we would have to name a member who is most responisible for keeping SP together and alive, it would be him. Imo communities need a certain amount of contraversy and discussion.

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Cassius said:
Think of it like this: how could DocRock possibly know some hidden truth about 9/11 when the plain truth that his maps were horrible always escaped him?

You miss the point entirely. This is not about a single person. This is not about a Half-Life map. This is bigger than any news story. This should be broadcast on the news, on every single TV station, radio station, on any type of media. It should be shouted from the mountaintops and be spoken of by every man woman and child from sea to shining sea. 9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB and there is no denying it!

If it makes you feel better, go watch Fox News. They spin the news pretty good.

Yeah, there's no denying it at all. Unless of course you look at any evidence.

So why isn't the evidence against the conspiracy theories valid?

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Because it's based on irrational fears and straw man arguments?

sarcasm tags?

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

I'm not being sarcastic at all.

Sorry, misread that.

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

French Toast said:
Because it's based on irrational fears and straw man arguments?

what, the war on terror?

---

i eat paint

French Toast said:
Yeah, there's no denying it at all. Unless of course you look at any evidence.

What evidence do you have to support your theories? I'd like to read some. Got any links?

[edit]i'm just.. gonna crawl back into my hole a minute. ....[/edit]

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE NOW KTHXBAI

---

o

Doc, you've managed to ignore my post regarding this 'evidence' you want to see. It took like 25 minutes to write that, cmon. =| anyway, here's a link to a report that breaks down the collapse. (bewbies, master of puns)

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

French Toast said:
Because it's based on irrational fears and straw man arguments?

what, the war on terror?

No, the whole '9/11 was an inside job' mentality.

yea frenchy.. i misunderstood that at first. i wrote a big, mean post about how it's actually the conspiracy theorists that are using irrational fear and straw man arguments.. ... but that's what you meant in the first place! ha

i agree with frenchy, someone please mark this date and time for posterity.

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

Why must everyone say that when they agree with me

EDIT: Oh, I see the confusion now. I misread Stadrics post. I said that 'there's no denying the conspiracy theory unless you look at any evidence', so like, the only real evidence is the stuff against conspiracies. And then he said that and I thought he meant why don't we consider evidence that supports them and bla bla bla.

Ya know, I'm still waiting for a rebuttal for my video analysis... :rolleyes:

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Bewbies said:
Doc, you've managed to ignore my post regarding this 'evidence' you want to see. It took like 25 minutes to write that, cmon. =| anyway, here's a link to a report that breaks down the collapse. (bewbies, master of puns)

<A href="http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html[quote">http:/www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html[/quote</A>]

That's a good report. What about this one? The guy who wrote it worked for the company that certified the steel used in the twin towers, then was fired because of his statements. Why fire the guy? What were they afraid of?
I don't know why some of you guys want to lock this thread. Lots of good info and debate. What are you afraid of? Why lock it? Because it's been discussed before? How many times have things on this site been discussed more than one time? lol cmon.

---

Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

bottom line here, imho? in 30 years, when im dead and gone, and world war three (started on sept 11, btw) is in its third decade of "life", and my kids are fighting the battles, they arent gonna give a flying s**t about who started it....you can take all your liberal conspiracy theories and stick em, and then theorise as to why yer walking funny

.....it makes no difference, it was gonna happen anyway.....

Doc B....

Dr Brasso said:
.....it makes no difference, it was gonna happen anyway.....

Another war time veteran who doesn't care... I am a war time veteran, and frankly, I do care. I also care about generations of our children who will be fighting these wars. I would hope that they would want to know why they are fighting, and for what reason.

So sad that some people can be so cold hearted and not even care about the world around them. No wonder the global elite are manipulating us all so easily. God help us.

---

Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

doc, he was fired for misrepresenting the company.. if someone was making stupid and all-around unknowledgeable statements, I wouldn't want that person working for me, either. in that letter alone, he's mistaken not only about the fire-proofing, but the melting points of steel. ..and this isn't some sort of opinion. these are scientific facts that he's wrong about.

NIST actually coordinated an investigation that consisted of experts from multiple fields, and from a scientific standpoint. call me gullible, but i'm willing to believe such a force of educated and experienced folks.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Following pressure from technical experts, industry leaders and families of victims, the Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and Technology conducted a three year $24 million investigation into the structural failure and progressive collapse of several WTC complex structures. The study included in-house technical expertise and drew upon the knowledge of several outside private institutions for aid to include:

• Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE)
• Society of Fire Protection Engineers (SFPE)
• National Fire Protection Association (NFPA)
• American Institute of Steel Construction (AISC)
• Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH)
• Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEAoNY)

</DIV></DIV>
[list]
[/list]

A fact sheet from the report can be found here, one of the entries that I think is more relevant right now is:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren?t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was ?certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours? is simply not true.

</DIV></DIV>

---

the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield

yo doc....how you construed that i dont care is beyond me.....i care a hella lot sport, and dont even get me started in that direction....ive also done my time in the service, and i was one of the first mother f**kers to try and re-enlist when this s**t started....i would gladly give my life for this country, and the sparing of the kids having to fight this s**t ass war....we didnt start it, and we sure as hell could finish it quick, if we didnt worry about what every other two bit 3rd world f**king nation is going to think....

<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Dr Brasso</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>.....it makes no difference, it was gonna happen anyway.....</DIV>
read it again man, and this time open yer mind up a bit....where the hell do you get "i dont care" from that?? you sound like every other liberal chicken s**t ive ever encountered....bah....and shame on you for assuming....that was not my meaning

Doc B.....

Bewbies said:
NIST actually coordinated an investigation that consisted of experts from multiple fields, and from a scientific standpoint. call me gullible, but i'm willing to believe such a force of educated and experienced folks.

You present solid information. Although I have read all of that before, it still brings me to a question that I cannot find an answer for.

Since the buildings only burned for a very short time, was it enough time to cause the metal structure to bend and then cause the whole building to distintegrate? Was the fire hot enough not only to bend the steel, but also hot enough to cause the cement to implode as the building fell? Physics are manipulated in the fall of the three buildings that day. How can that be explained away? There are quite a few videos of the collapse of the buildings. I'm not sure how many you've seen, but this one shows where a MIT engineer and research scientist Jeff King details how the official government story violates the laws of physics and chemistry. He goes on to explain how the subsequent government investigations were designed NOT to uncover what happened. He also provides insight into what most likely happened that day

<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Dr Brasso</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>.....it makes no difference, it was gonna happen anyway.....</DIV>
Sorry for misunderstanding, but it seemed like you didn't care. Kinda sounded, to me, like 'who cares either way,' and I took it that you meant you didn't care which caused me to want to know why when I knew you were a Veteran. I would fight for my country too, any day, and die for the truth, any day.

---

Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!