As stated in my profile, this was intended for the 2006 mapping competition, but I just could'nt muster enough personal time to submit by the deadline. I am now going to add some areas and expand on the theme a bit. Here are some very early screens showing where I am at right now.

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap00.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap01.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap02.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap03.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap04.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap05.jpg

comments/crits welcome(although not expected really at this stage of the process).

---

Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

Wow!! This is looking sweet!!! I would love to play test this map when you are ready on our [FF] servers!! Can't wait to try it out!

Juim, it looks like an interesting start. I like the fact that you are pushing shapes and trying to create some interesting architecture. I know it's a very early version, so I won't nitpick the details. My biggest question is, what exactly is your theme? At the moment, it seems like you are going to town with interesting shapes and layout, but not really trying to focus the 'what' of the map, if you get me. So what is this place? What type of environment are you trying to sculpt here?

Initially, I was going for one of those outdoor malls like you see all over the downtown areas. The three main arches (not depicted too well in the screenshots) are the entrance/exit to a subway station. The area outside of the tall metal arches is the exit to the street and an industrial area. Behind that will be a pier, (I hope) , and that should be it. It started out as an experiment to see if i could create a box map, but one with some play value and eye candy. Since I missed the contest deadline, I figured I would go ahead with the other main areas.

Note: I am thinking of putting a sign outside of the park area

Jamestown Unified Industrial Museum.

hehehe.

Juim, even at 20%, this map is a huge improvement over your last. Things like scale, shape, and texturing all look much better.

The centerpiece of the level looks a little strangely proportioned (like it's too top heavy?) but still, it's early.

Some refreshing forms and shapes. I thought I'd get a bit picky about the not-so-obvious theme but ultimately I figured I don't care. Looks interesting. That's all I need for now. Themes are for CS anyway :biggrin:

The cylinder-shaped building in the middle looks a bit unstable. Maybe because of the thin walls and the thin colums that hold it.

I'm not sure about the shiny white tiles texture on the walls? It distracts a bit too much from the other (much more interesting) architecture. I don't know if it would be better to change it or to add more detail to establish the part more as a background.

Here are some more screenies depicting this mornings work. I think I am going for early morning. That time between darkness and light when the sky is almost blue and the street lights have'nt turned off yet. Before the bustle of people clogs the streets.(My favorite time of day).

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap07.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap08.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap09.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap10.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap11.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap12.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap13.jpg

I am almost ready to move on to the underground part of the map. Still nowhere near finished with detailing the upper areas, but I want to keep moving forward with the basic architecture.

Well, I am still working on this, albeit in little chunks on weekends. Today I changed the lighting, trying to creat a more early morning feel to the map. Heres todays work.

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap14.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap15.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/nextmap16.jpg

The lighting is very rough, but the new awning thingy has a nice feel to it. I was inspired by a resturaunt I drove by on the way to work the other day. I will keep posting weekly, but forgive me for the slow progress. I intend to also add some kiosks and a few other ground based items to provide cover from the higher levels.

You know Juim, I like how your level have a unique look to them. I don't quite know how to explain them, but there's a slight touch of surreal to your architecture and setting. I hope you don't take that as a knock against your work (if you were attempting for 100% realistic recreation of an area) but rather as a compliment, because I see your level as potentially standing out from the generic.

Also, I like the z-axis stuff I'm seeing, especially in the 3rd shot.

Heres an overview so far. I am going to try and get started on the basics of the subway station beneath the map this weekend.(although I am working saturday, so sunday is my only hope).

I've only stopped complaining about file sizes. I have NOT stop noticing them. Please cut this old man some slack.

As to the content, I am going to reserve judgment until I can go in and look myself. Pictures really aren't that good a medium to judge but, from the aspect you have illustrated, it looks like a box with stuff inside. High quality stuff, but still stuff. Have you got a really neato skybox planned to break up that box feel yet?

It would be kinda neat if you made it look like a city was teleported unto an asteroid or something. Having a barren landscape all about would look real nice.

whispers

If all goes well, I leave for LA on Sunday. :wink:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Well as you can see I am resurrecting this thread to let you know I have'nt stopped working on this map. I feel like running this map through the snarkpit ringer as much as necessary to have a better mapping experience than my first release for HL2. Hopefully this one will actually get some play as I feel it's a much better map than waterwerx. If you check the maps profile I noted that among the things left to do aside from the basics, is opening up the subway on either side and have trains run in each direction randomly. I am also considering having one or more of the elevators actually function, although I am hesitant for some reason.

Keep in mind that this is an alpha, no weaponry, and basically lit. The screenshots are updated, and there is a download now. Your input is greatly appreciated.

---

Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

I am also considering having one or more of the elevators actually function, although I am hesitant for some reason.

Elevators don't really work in multiplayer Source games, IIRC.

---

o

That is my feeling as well, especially in DM. Perhaps I will make the shafts climbable as if the elevators were out of order.

Lifts can work semi-fine with func_tracktrains. I can try and help you with them, if things don't work.

The map seems to really take shape, judging from the screenshots. I'll download and have a look perhaps later today.

The only issue I think I can predict so far is that it could grow too large easily. Especially the last two screens look very big and disconnected from the main area. It's hard to tell from screenshots alone, though. Maybe you should try and cut off some of the outer parts while it's not too late. I dunno. It's really hard to fill such big areas with gameplay and further decorations without making them look empty. Maybe I'm over-interpreting things here but it's something you could consider.

Anyways, nice map.

[edit:]

Alright I had a quick run through the map and liked what I saw a lot, while maybe the alpha state helped me to accept some rather gray-ish texturing.

Things I noticed:

• The underground parts indeed seem to be separated from the main part too much. I'm afraid trying to get some connectivity between the areas will be a nightmare. I know it's brutal but consider cutting these parts. I liked the ring-statue. It would surely look good somewhere on the outside, too...
• Use func_details for the stair brushes. I promise a 1 hour+ speed increase in vvis compile times. :smile:
• I get pink check board errors for missing textures on a displacement wall. I forgot to take a screenshot but I think it's the rock texture. If it's a custom one make sure it's included with right relative paths with a BSP-file integration program like packrat.
• Cubemaps don't work. This seems to happen often lately? After you ran buildcubemaps turn on sv_cheats 1 and reload the map. Until then they aren't written into the bsp.
• I wish I could grab those modern statue shapes with the gg. :heee:

That's what I found so far. The architecture is very unusual and interesting. I liked the bits of lighting but surely there's a lot that can be done yet. Maybe a nicer sky. The cloudy skies always make it look like there's bad weather. Also the texturing is very, very gray but we all have to fight with the HL2 palette :/

Very promising map!

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Why snark works.

Thank you for your reply Reaper.

1.) The underground part will be better connected bh opening up the elevator shafts to ladder climbs, I will even put an exit on the uppermost level of the outside area.

2.)Actually, most of the stairs are already func_details, except for some of the lower stairways, where there are no outer brushes protecting them from the void. I will fix this.

3.)Those darn textures. I noticed this on a recent re-load of steam. It says in the browser that the texture is nature-something-er-other, so I assumed it was a standard HL2 texture. I will packrat it or change it before the final build.

4.)cubemaps will be fixed also.(thanks, I don't know how you can tell if they have been built in the map, maybe you could let me know the visual clue for this).

5.) The outside sculptures will be made into props_physics, great idea.

Also outside the park there is an undeveloped area looking out over the ocean. I have hopes of putting another shop front there or a theater marquis or something like that. I will also be adding a 3D skybox to the outside and I will look into another skymap.

Thanks again for the great input.

For cubemaps just type "sv_cheats 1" in console. Then "buildcubemaps". Now "map dm_stonepark_alpha1". There should be a short delay after the map finished loading. Like a 15 second lag. Then all the cubemaps are written into the BSP.

I think this was complified with some source engine update. midkay taught me the sv_cheats 1 trick, so it works nicely.

As for seeing cubemaps working. Simply use "impulse 101", take out the crossbow and it should display convincing miniature reflections on the scope that show the environment at the position of the nearest env_cubemap. Right now it's just the standard, bugged sunset sky reflection that is used as an error texture.

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Why snark works.

nice concept and architecture. imo some of the lighting could benefit from more harshness.

reaper47 said:

• Cubemaps don't work. This seems to happen often lately? After you ran buildcubemaps turn on sv_cheats 1 and reload the map. Until then they aren't written into the bsp.
  </LI>

lately? i've been having this problem since june last year. i need to go out of steam or load up another map before i see the effect of buildcubemaps. so sv_cheats 1 is not required imo, but this seems to be a faster solution, so thx, i'll try it

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Well in my usualstyle I am still plugging away at this between 80 hour work weeks. Here are some screens:

http://gamersdiner.com/images/dm_stonepark_11.jpg

this is the noclip shot. It is a big map but not pointlessly sprawling like dm_waterwerx was.

The next few are of the inner train station.

http://gamersdiner.com/images/dm_stonepark_12.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/dm_stonepark_13.jpg

http://gamersdiner.com/images/dm_stonepark_14.jpg

Finally, another exterior shot.

http://gamersdiner.com/images/dm_stonepark_15.jpg

I have included alpha2 to the download link.

---

Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

Great to see the map's still alive! I'll give it a try this afternoon.

---

Why snark works.

great map Juim

My only suggestion at this stage would be to add more light sources. Also, I don't know what skybox you used, but you might want to try sky_day03_06
This will add some warmth to the main open area without breaking the dusk/twilight setting.

Good work! I can't wait for the next update, but don't try and rush a map of this size though - take your time - all the hard work will be worth it. :smile:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Great map indeed. I had a look and really liked the changes. The new, warmer lighting not only helps to set the mood, it also structures the place in more distinctive areas. The layout is much cleaner and easier to learn now.

My complaints are still more general, though. There are a few issues that affect the map as a whole.

• The map is still rather dark. It could need more lights, brighter lights and overlapping lights so no dark stripes stay between two lamps.
• Cubemaps aren't run correctly. The trick is to switch on "sv_cheats 1". To calculate them in console type these three lines: "sv_cheats 1"; "buildcubemaps"; "map dm_stonepark_alpha2". Otherwise they won't be saved into the map.
• Using more than one waterplanes causes errors with the watersurface (it switches from world-reflections to cubemap shaders and seems to change height). I probably wouldn't have noticed if I didn't know the bug from my own maps :/
• The underground is still a bit off...

A few illustrations:


The texture doesn't load. The stonewall works now, though!


The default "sunset sky" error-cubemap.


I'd say that area A is about 3 times cooler than area B. I like parts of it (like the area around the "three circles statue". But the train, the long, huge corridors around it are very bland and I've seen them in so many other maps already. I don't see how they could be decorated, also. Cut, cut, cut. And concentrate on the kick-ass outside areas. This map is so huge, I think focusing the work on a slightly smaller area would help a lot.


It's annoying that you can't jump up here.

PS: I'd stilly like to grav-gun-grab the 3 statues. :wink:

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Why snark works.

Thanks Reaper for your timely response.

1. I keep forgetting to switch out the doors texture. I assumed it was HL2 standard. Will switch it.

2.) I did the cubemaps as prescribed, sv_cheats 1, buildcubemaps, map dm_stonepark_alpha2. I did see the actual map reflected in the scope of the crossbow and on the floor reflections in the terminal, but I cant explain the outside error. Does cubemap height have anything to do with error rendering like that?

3.) I would so dearly like to not cut the map in half, but in the end I will do whats best. I was thinking of adding some teleporters to the extreme north and south of the map to help with connectivity. I was also thinking of having trains randomly crossing on the inner tracks so as to add to the ambience/danger of crossing repeatedly.

4.) I'll see what I can do about that gap.

5.) I'm afraid I'm goingto need a tut on making those art pieces into throwable models, as I can't see a way to do it in hammer. Any help there would be greatly appreciated.

6.) Also, future plans are that I hope to include a 3d skybox, and on the road outside, I'm thinking of adding a tunnel (blocked to exit) so as to make the outer area a bit more believable.

2.) I did the cubemaps as prescribed, sv_cheats 1, buildcubemaps, map dm_stonepark_alpha2. I did see the actual map reflected in the scope of the crossbow and on the floor reflections in the terminal, but I cant explain the outside error. Does cubemap height have anything to do with error rendering like that?

Totally strange. :sad:

About the art pieces: Just turn them into a func_physbox. The lighting will "stick" to them which could make them look odd if they had extreme shadows on one side (which I think they haven't). Using the "don't move" or "enable movement on physgun grab" flags should make them wait nicely in the air until grabbed.

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Why snark works.

I just figured it out. I work on the map in the editor under the name nextmap.

I did run the commands and buildcubemaps, but then I renamed the bsp. Apparently, hl2 keeps the cubemap info somewhere else outside the bsp under the name of the map. I will fix it and repost under alpha3 next week sometime.

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Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

That's probably it about the cubemaps, but just be sure your getting the most accurate reflections: place cubemaps for static geometry and static props at least 16 units away from any surface in order to best represent the world around them for reflections.

However, for NPCs and the player it should be placed at least 64 units off the ground to better represent the surroundings.

---

Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Juim said:
I did run the commands and buildcubemaps, but then I renamed the bsp. Apparently, hl2 keeps the cubemap info somewhere else outside the bsp under the name of the map. I will fix it and repost under alpha3 next week sometime.

Now, I admit my ignorance about the inner workings of HL2 but that doesn't sound probable for the simple fact that when you distribute the map, you don't send this "outside" file with it.

In all probability, it stores it in the bsp just as if you wadincluded a custom texture in HL1. Renaming a bsp doesn't alter its contents.

Map looks great though.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Cubemaps are internally saved with this path:

materials/maps/yourmapname/folder_where_the_material_is/

Renaming the bsp changes the part of yourmapname, so it can't find the cubemaps next time you load it.

Kasperg_JM said:
Renaming the bsp changes the part of yourmapname, so it can't find the cubemaps next time you load it.

Yeah, so? I mean if its saved in the bsp then its saved. If you work on it again and have to re-run cubemaps then I see an issue, but no one releases anything but the bsp and cubemaps runs perfectly fine on their machines after they place the bsp in their maps folder.

Unless I am missing part of the puzzle and no one is saying what, then how can the cubemaps be saved inside a bsp, and suddenly go missing just by renaming? (assuming, no further works was done.)

Lets say I download a kasperg HL2 map and its 100% OK. I decide I don't like the name for some reason and rename it. Will the map now be 95% OK because somehow the cubemaps has gone out the window?

I'd like a clarification on how cubemaps works, and then doesn't.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Yah some clarification would be nice. Crono? we need one of your patented 3 paragraph techsplanations on this :cool: .

Also, I could'nt stand it. Heres a link to Alpha3 with cubemaps built,the door textures replaced(although from within my texture browser Reaper, those look suspiciously like hl2 textures. They are metal/metaldoorc17 or some such) and the statues can be thrown now, but you have to physycally touch them or throw a grenade at them to get them to move. I'll refine those parameters soon.

http://gamersdiner.com/downloads/dm_stonepark_alpha3.zip

Well, the cubemaps are automatically saved to a path inside the bsp (like the bsp was a zip-file) and the path-name is that of the bsp. So... renaming the bsp causes the game too look at the wrong path ("../oldmapname")

I'm writing a cubemap tutorial. I don't know how much info would be helpful but there still seams to be a lot confusion about how they work. Should be up within the next week.

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Why snark works.

reaper47 said:
Well, the cubemaps are automatically saved to a path inside the bsp (like the bsp was a zip-file) and the path-name is that of the bsp. So... renaming the bsp causes the game too look at the wrong path ("../oldmapname")
.

I'm not trying to be difficult but that still doesn't make sense assuming the machine that is playing the renamed map never built it in the first place.

I mean, I might not have steam in program files, so the path would be different even without renaming it.

What am I still missing?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Let's say you make a map named "Example".

When you run buildcubemaps, those files are saved inside the BSP with a pathname of
materials/maps/Example/ExampleMaterials/

When you load the map in HL2, it will look for the cubemaps in materials/maps/Example/ExampleMaterials/ and find them.

If you rename the map to "Example2", the next time you load the BSP ingame, it will look for the cubemaps in materials/maps/Example2/ExampleMaterials/

No files have been created in that path, so there are no reflections and they need to be built again.

On top of that, when you recompile the map, those files are cleared
and the compile log tells you to run cubemaps again to get the proper
results.

bong..Bong..bong

You hear that? Thats our collective heads banging a wall.

I understood you the first time. However, I failed to communicate that if the map is loaded on another machine, how will cubemaps work?

You're not going to convince me that somehow the new machine knows what and where another machine did something YET, cannot deal with a simple rename.. Are you?

Perhaps the missing piece is this. Cubemaps is a strictly editing specific command and has nothing to do with the map once its loaded on another PC.

Is that the missing part?

You see this is the part my mind refuses to grasp. Everyone in the world has the option of where on their hard drives to install steam/HL2. There could be a plethora of path possibilities.

How will renaming ruin cubemaps, and a path distinction not?

Please don't tell me again how cubemap knows Juim's settings. Pretend I loaded his map on my computer, and work from there.

[EDIT]

OK, I am thinking another possibility. Perhaps I am thinking of the path, in the wrong sequence. Instead of C:/blah/blah/blah/maps/bsp. I should be thinking in reverse order starting from the bsp and working up. That way, everyone has a folder called maps, and materials in the exact same place.

Is that it?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

When you load the map in HL2 in
your computer, it will look for the cubemaps in the path:
materials/maps/Example/ExampleMaterials/ which is inside the BSP
and it will find them, because the files are there since the
moment the mapper ran the command in his machine. There is no c:,
programe files or SteamApps in that path, at least I don't see
it. I just takes a look at what game you are running and decides to
search from there.

Those files and paths have been created inside the BSP. Just the way HL1 loads its files from a single pak file instead of folders.

Is it a bit more clear now?

So, I guess one thing is sure. Before you release a map, you better chose a name others can live with. If they alter the name, your hard work goes to s**t.

I still cannot grasp it, but I am not the one who needs to. Juim does.

I do appriceate the effort. Its really not your fault, if I am the stupid one.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

you better chose a name others can live with. If they alter the name, your hard work goes to s**t

Not at all, since the only thing they need to do is:

-Make sure the BSP is not read-only

-Rename it

-Run buildcubemaps again

Kasperg_JM said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>you better chose a name others can live with. If they alter the name, your hard work goes to s**t

Not at all, since the only thing they need to do is:
-Make sure the BSP is not read-only
-Rename it
-Run buildcubemaps again
</div></div>

If that were true, then Reaper could have done it and told Juim for sure if the cubemaps were set right or not.

Its either uncommon knowledge, or no one thinks it worth the effort to do while testing/critiquing.

If it is that easy, it might pay to make it more known. I dunno.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Reaper could run cubemaps, but not change their position or sample
resolution, since that's done in Hammer with the vmf that only Juim has.

It's not a common practice because:

-Most final releases of maps have their cubemaps properly built, so nobody wastes time building them again.

-The resulting BSP could be different than the original, possibly
making people unable to play against users with the other version (I'm
not 100% sure)

On the subject of faulty cubemaps, I have a lot of trouble getting them
to work since one of last year's Source updates. I usually have to type
"buildcubemaps" and switch back and forth between "mat_bumpmap 1 or 0"
in order for them to show up properly, as well as reloading the map,
several random times.

Kasperg_JM said:
On the subject of faulty cubemaps, I have a lot of trouble getting them to work since one of last year's Source updates. I usually have to type "buildcubemaps" and switch back and forth between "mat_bumpmap 1 or 0" in order for them to show up properly, as well as reloading the map, several random times.

Thats sad when you think about it. Not only do level editors have to deal with their own inadequacies, they also have to deal with imposed ones.

Anywho, I'd hope that since a map is WIP, that your idea for people to build the cubemaps be part of the testing process. It wouldn't matter until after the final release anyway.

As for the idea that people releasing maps with properly built cubemaps.. Thats still debatable.

Hopefully, something posted today, will sort out Juims problem.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

After taking a look around the map, I see that most (if not all) props
have that sunset envmap while the weapons and world surfaces have the
correct cubemap reflections.

It happens to me quite often, and the method I described above (changing from mat_bumpmap 1 to 0 etc) ends up fixing it.

For example, when I run cubemaps in cs_fallingliquid, the windows might
get their reflections while the sinks and toilets still have the empty
sky as a reflection.

EDIT: Just as I thought. Here's a picture of the lockers with the
cubemaps Juim built, and the same locker with the same settings but
after I rebuilt the cubemaps and messed with the mat_bumpmap command.
(It might look like there are no reflections, but there are. They are
just not as obvious as before).

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6308/dmstoneparkalpha20000sw4.jpg

Thanks for the link Jacfu. I believe I will try the sky you recommended in my next compile.

Humm... nice but...but odd looking for a DM map... i just dont know why, put i guess its good... i'll be waiting for the map release.

Edit: EHEHE.... it is downloadable :biggrin:

All the buggy shaders are fixed now. Nice!

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Why snark works.

OK I did some serious re-thinking and have completed the following:

1.) downsizing as suggested by Reaper and others outside the pit. Maybe not enough for all, but the train station is gone. I left the lower level and added a teleport with 2 destinations.

2.)I also added a tunnel texture for future useout in the street.(3d skybox?)

3.) I opened up two of the storage units in the street (for throwables)

4.)added morelights here and there.(I am getting rid of dark patches as I go).

5.) changed sky texture (thx jacfu).

A question. Is there a way to control the seperate water sources around the map so they dont pop in and out like that? Individual load control entities or something?.

download:

http://gamersdiner.com/downloads/dm_stonepark_alpha4.zip

these things and a few decorative touches should lead us into the final beta.

---

Quote from Nietzsche....God is dead
Quote from God....Nietzsche is dead

I had a quick look. I like the additional lighting and the new skybox. I'm glad you considered the suggestion regarding the underground parts. It's less separated now. The one, square-shaped underground tunnel with the stairs and the white tiles on the walls is the part that looks the most bland now IMO. Maybe you could spice it up.

Unfortunately, there's no way to get rid of the water-bugs. You can have two water surfaces in vis-leaves invisible to each other. But in an open area like the outside, that's impossible I'm afraid. Maybe it's a specific part of the shader that causes it (like full reflections) and using a different one could solve the problem at the cost of some special effects. But it's a very small bug, I wouldn't worry too much.

Very nice. Near-finished - I agree. :smile:

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Why snark works.

Nice Juim, really nice, I've got it up in my rotation, thanks for letting me know about it... :smile:

whew... its my first comment (new on SnarkPit). I'm trying to be really active user... ok let's see some screenies



you really should leave that or make it bigger, it doestn look right for some kind of a garage that way.



see the image(tell me if you dont get it). My point is to make the wall taller.(or some depris)



This hall seems really hungry of details and light's. The lighting is way too dark for that kind of public hall.



I like secret spots =D, nicely done the connection between the swimming pool and err... under the stairs.



The overrall look is awesome. Nothing else to say from that.

Keep it up, waiting for beta!

Is this thread dead???

You really haven't been here for long, have you? :biggrin:

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Why snark works.