I always thought it would be nice. There has been a discussion in the site suggestions thread started by Snickers.

The 3 map editing forums we have are very restrictive (but also very tidy). They're great for finding answers or asking specific questions about bugs or certain tools. They're excellent for threads that are supposed to have an "answer", a final post.

But I miss a place for advanced discussions about mapping. They pop up in the General Banter from time to time but immediately get rolled over by Off Topic threads. It would be nice to have a place specifically for mapping related discussions that go beyond "help plz, I get >MAXPLANES with my elevator wtf?".

I still don't know how much access the currently active admins have to the site code, but adjusting the forum structure sounds like something you can do with only a few settings.

What do you think...

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Why snark works.

derailment and decline into another general banter forum would be my initial fear

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i eat paint

So that's what the admins think of us?

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Why snark works.

Hmm, I read that suggestions thread, and I'd be willing to participate wholeheartedly in something as such proposed here. I've now built up this small library of level design theory books which I'd love to incorporate into abstract discussions. So you could count me in as an avid participant if this pulls through!

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

For those who missed the blue sarcasm color: I really think this could turn out to be great but fully understand the idea behind using as few forums as possible.

I don't like it when forums get split in hundreds of sub-categories with only one active topic each.

But for a mapping site it makes perfectly sense to have a forum for advanced and more general mapping discussions. My only fear, personally, is that people wouldn't get the difference and post a lot of basic editing questions. This could be prevented with very clear naming and separation.

Plus there are a few ones that could be replaced IMO. There hasn't been a post in Radiant Editing in almost half a year (the last one, titled "Radiant Forum Party" is dated Oct 2006).

Also the Art forum could be turned into a Custom Content forum, giving prop-modelers and texture creators a place where they feel to belong.

But a General Mapping forum is what I'd be looking forward to the most.

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Why snark works.

I definitely don't consider myself an advanced mapper, however as a somewhat beginner I look at this as an opportunity to peruse some advanced concepts and hopefully learn something new

Although I think that most mapping discussion can take place in map threads, I am in favor of the idea.

Onwards towards learning and whatnot.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Isn't it quite normal that on a general banter forum of a mapping website discussions occur about mapping. I think by pushing it into it's own board, you'll most likely kill those discussions. It's fine the way it is, for me.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

Good point, Forceflow.

Still, in a General Banter forum mapping related threads always have to compete with OT talk. A battle they can't win.

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Why snark works.

Can't be done currently, sorry.

I'm on 3 week holiday as of Monday so i'll sniff around, but don't get your hopes up. Ideally we need a whole new site design...

Alright, no stress.
TBH, this whole thread was born out of my curiosity how much could be done with the site. I'd love to see a few (even minor) updates but I don't know if bringing up ideas for it even makes sense. If there is any access to the core of the site/code ect...

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Why snark works.

Gwil, get some chloroform and rope and kidnap Lep, then chain him to a computer in a dark damp basement until he overhauls the Snarkpit :razz:

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o

it's a good plan, i say we go through with it

I vote other.

I think we already have enough HL related forums.

I think that another would just open up an avenue for more off topic discussions. It would take a dedicated admin to keep in not. Right now, we don't even have an admin to tidy the tutorials of oversized pics and content errors, why would one want to take on another forum?

IMO, the maps forum could be the indepth discussion place. Say, you see a Doom III map thats exciting you. Post it, and open a discussion about it there. Those forums are already pretty much self policed and would prolly not degrade to much by the non-HL related content.

I vote "other" because I do not want more HL related stuff. I want "other games" related stuff.

I'm dead serious. We must expand beyond HL or perish. I was gone 3 full days. It took me less than 5 minutes to read everything posted in my absence.

Stop denying it folks and think on a solution.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

think on a solution

Like a general level design forum? I don't recall anyone ever saying "A new Half-Life mapping forum." Last I checked, almost all video and computer games require some sort of level design, and many of the basic ideas are the same for most of those games.

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o

Mapping for other games can be refreshing as it's always a new challange and you see different styles and aproaches to technologies ect.

BUT... isn't HL(1+2) still the most mapped-for game out there? It includes Counter Strike and CS-Source. That's about 10 times the mapping crowd of all the other games out there together (I'm exaggerating for effect).

Most other games have their niche site already. I've mapped for Red Faction for quite a while (which I think you hardly hear of, usually). It was an amazing experience and a nice community but it's centered entirely around the L4Y site or good old redtech. I haven't seen a good Doom 3 site either (even after quite a bit of googling), seems to be pretty hard to map for.

Also this site will always stay the Snarkpit, having a HL1 mascot in its name. Personally, I wouldn't bother visiting a Halo site for example (entitled "The Masterchief Land") for my HL mapping needs.

In order to really attract mappers from other engines we would have to make them feel at home here, which could be difficult because most threads for other games will be overrun by Source engine related threads quickly (and there'd be an awful lot of "I never played this game, but..." posts).

One thing I could imagine is that we form a pact of sort, looking at many game's mapping capabilities and then pick a game we all agree on and adopt it as an official Sarkpit game. We could become the Doom 3 experts, or the like. Really spreading the word that we're a place for other games than HL(1+2) and mods would be quite difficult I suppose.

Also, let's not forget about Team Fortress 2... and Fortress Forever. TFC was always very mappable, it could bring in some new people.

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Why snark works.

well i downloaded q3 radiant and as soon as i'm done with my current hl2 map i'll check that out

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting reaper47</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

BUT... isn't HL(1+2) still the most mapped-for game out there? .</DIV></DIV>

Perhaps it is, but new sites or more specifically, newer sites than Snarkpit have more action now than we do.

This site has more to offer, yet has far less action than even before the release of HL2.

Perhaps I am only wishing upon a star, but dammit I want the interactivity of early HL1 and the only way I foresee such is to broaden our horizons beyond HL2.

If you take into consideration that so far the source engine has not helped.

At one time we were literally at the top of the s**theap. The only difference between then and now is the source engine.

I was here in 2001. Reno and Andrew, two of our most prestigious level designers, were not all that great then. This site helped them to achieve.

My point is, no new person arriving today is any further behind, than they were when they arrived. The ONLY difference between then and now is our dependency on source.

We have two options:
1) Invest ourselves whole heartedly into source and make it more appealing.
2) Abandon source and invest out time into an engine that will deliver us back to our peak.

We have the collective experience unrivaled by all but a few editing sites. Our only problem is a serious lack of initiative. Saying you have no time, will only work for so long then you must concede the fact that you really don't want to continue.

The choice is ours. Make a wise one.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I'm with Orpheus. Although I can't say I'm one of the best mappers here, this site turned me from an above average nub, to an experienced mapper. The experience and the quality are here, and we owe it to the level design community to keep them alive. I can't be the only one here who has seen the tripe that passes as a Garry's Mod map these days. That garbage will always be there, but high-quality levels that come as close to art as any game can need to be made, and this is the site to make and help make them.

Let's stop mourning for the Snarkpit while it sits here crippled. Let's teach it to walk again.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

The question's thats bugging me most are:

Are we so focused on the past, that its killing our future?
or
Are we so focused on perfection that we are scaring off our future?

Snarkpit by and large has the highest standards of any editing site I have been to, with regards to HL. Is that causing our grief or not?

I am of the mind that this is not so, but would be open to any discussion that will assist us in a future.

The reason I think its not so is simple. As far as other games go, Snarkpit is but a shadow when compared to the releases for games like Quake and Unreal. Those two games alone have far superior maps and the total releases alone are staggering. Yeah, we have maps that rival them but they are much farther apart and much, much less totals.

The point is, those sites have really high member activity, and really high quality so I cannot imagine our standards are to high.

That said, then where lies the problem?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Are we so focused on the past, that its killing our future?
or
Are we so focused on perfection that we are scaring off our future?

Yes to both. I came after the golden HL1 days wore off so I can say that from a neutral POV. After reading all those threads about this, I came to the conclusion that it's true. The SP in its current state is quite oldschool.

Maybe we should look at sites that could serve as an example for how to modernize the Snarkpit? What are the sites you mean, what are they doing different?

I think I still don't quite get how opening up the SP to other games would solve the activity problem. It would increase the potential amount of members but not the activity. If you're looking for advertising ("Come to the SnarkPit, where we map for all the games out there!") then I don't think this would solve it.

I find this to be an opportunity to get back on topic: A fresh start, a re-design of the site, with some bugs solved, some features refined or added and an appearance that is less 2001 (sorry) and we could get more attention from the mapping scene. Re-modeling the forums structure is just something to look into, not a must. But there's enough that doubtlessly needs attention.

PS: There isn't even anyone responsible for the site's code which is kinda scary. I would help out a bit, I know a lot about general design issues and I'm currently learning PHP. But I don't even know if there's anyone who has access to the site?

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Why snark works.

In truth, communities live and communities die - it goes in cycles.
Redesigning the site would be a basic WordPress style front for news
and a phpBB forums, thus losing all the Snarkpit "charm".

I'd rather urge people to expand into new communities (eg Interlopers or whoever) than try to prop up an old community.

-- or - start afresh using a setup as I have mentioned and running it
as a general gaming and community site. I was part of the Wireplay (old
UK gaming service) TFC scene for... 6 years, at least? We now all
congregate on a forum which is nothing to do with TFC at all but it
kept the community together.

There is a lot to be said for a community based SOLELY around a forum
for its ease of use for "newbies" and uncluttered approach. If this
meant people had to sacrifice userpages, snarkmarks, tutorials etc -
how receptive would people be?

For all the good advice posted here in "site content" form, 99% of it
could be converted to forum threads, you could sticky compile advice
and FAQ etc. Either way the community as it stands, in my eyes - has
had it's day. There are many mutual friends here amongst you guys who
would continue posting and supporting mapping, who would do it on a
forum only based system? This would seem to be the logical way
forward for me.

Gwil said:
In truth, communities live and communities die - it goes in cycles.

I think my main point is, There are HL communities still plenty active. So I don't think necessarily that Snarkpit is dying simply because of Half-Life.

I think Snarkpit is dying because of its lack of initiative alone. IMO, had source lived up to Snarkpit standards, Snarkpit would still be at least as striving as it once was. It seems to me that we set our hopes to much on one particular venue of HL2 and when it failed to materialize, all our collective attitudes failed with it.

Even if we decide to stay with HL singularly, some how we will need to motivate enough of our vocal/active members to make people want to be here.

If Snarkpit were dying simply because of HL alone, all HL communities would be dying and I just don't see that happening.

Somehow, even if you totally disagree with me, there must be a reason for our decline in spite of HL still being active.

Perhaps it is simply our age. Snarkpit was made up of very young members 5 years ago. Snarkpits members have aged a bit and now the other sites with very young are active.

I really don't want the kids back here, but it would be nice to have the twinkle in their eyes back.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

If I wanted to start a level layout theory thread right now, which forum would be best for that?

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

Riven said:
If I wanted to start a level layout theory thread right now, which forum would be best for that?

general banter.

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i eat paint

fishy said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Riven</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>If I wanted to start a level layout theory thread right now, which forum would be best for that?

general banter.</div></div>

Unless, you had a work in progress map and wanted to discuss its expansion into a functional map. Then you could put it in maps.
If you simply want to discuss possibilities of a non-existent map then yes, please put it in general.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Redesigning the site would be a basic WordPress style front for news
and a phpBB forums, thus losing all the Snarkpit "charm".

It doesn't have to be. And I don't see much "charm" in broken Firefox compatibility and the 2-years old skeleton of a Snarkpit-Server list on the top of the frontpage.

There's a lot of little things that could be done and haven't even been tried for one reason or another. I think it would be worth it, even if it's just to see whether there really wasn't anything we could.

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Why snark works.

You know thats not what I meant when saying "charm", and also note how
I put it inside quotes. A redesign means losing the maps, map ratings,
snarkmarks, Q&A system for the editing forums, tutorials. The fact
that it's coded around a heavily edited phpBB base written years ago
makes it extremely difficult to implement new things or shift this bit
or that bit to suit the current needs.

I stand by the notion that a forums separate from the site is much
easier to maintain, modernise and moderate and we need to throw
everything we have now out the door in favour of a fresh, from scratch
(ie not even post records) layout and structure. If this were to happen
i'd be supportive of maintaining this site as an archive, but we can't
carry it over into new ideas. It simply won't work.

Its a very difficult call. Sticking with this site seems like the "right" thing to do in that...

• Its our home, and we're used to it
• It's been built up over years and years, archiving our history
• It incorporates a whole lot of features that none of the rival sites offer
• I don't think any of us here have the ability, nor time/inclination to learn the ability, to translate those features to a new site

On the other hand, starting something afresh means that those of us who are still around can really take control of the place. There's only so much that Gwil, Fishy and I can really do for this place as the admins - Lep built this place to give admins a lot of control, but it was still under the assumption that he would be here to manage any of the extreme measures. If we go for a new design we can handle every aspect of it. It wouldn't have a great number of the features we currently take for granted, but at least we could try and revitalise things and bring it more up to date. We could bring in a "Game Development Discussion" forum, scrap the game specific stuff, and hopefully appeal to more general level design (and ideally other disciplines) rather than HL1/2 specific. The amateur dev community is shrinking it seems - its really time that we try and push beyond the restraints of one game. We can't do that with the site as it is.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Wanted: PHP Coder, must be enthusiastic and work for low pay. Food not included in wages.

:biggrin:

I had an idea for a multi-game mapping site. Lep talked me out of it.

I still think its a good idea, but since it would require someone gifted in web design I am inclined to stay with leps advice and not furthering it.

I even had a name, but won't post it openly, because it may not mean much to someone, but could be borrowed, just to cause me grief.

I would be willing to discuss anything privately,via irc or something with the admin and anyone they pic to discuss this hypothetical new website.

My main objective for this discussion is simple, and unavoidable so:

Lep has 100% of the site. No question as to why since he worked his ass off but, it also leave us 100% at his whim.

He could say fukkit and that would end our debating once and for all.

I don't fault Lep for his goals, but I am bothered that not one single replacement could be located since 2001.

The way I see this is, something as simple as our host screwing us again could end Snarkpit, because we are not even sure that the backups are taking place anymore. :eek:

If Snarkpit had to switch tomorrow, would we have a currently backed up website? I'm thinking its doubtful. We lost hosts before. Makes you wonder, and scared.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I think that Source is one of the few engines left, that actually allows casual mappers to build anything without having to use an external modeling program such as Maya. That's why I'm not to keen on switching to other engines.

Most of the newer ones are almost unmanageable outside the "pro-mapper" scene which I don't think many of us belong to. I enjoy looking at the more impressive projects over at mapcore, but at the same time I know... this is not my league.

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Why snark works.