A HEALTHY political topic.

Wow....less then 24 hours into this thing and it's huge.

I didn't think I would strike such a pipeline for conversation while keep the whole thing civilized :smile:

My earlier response was that, Orph, you getting divorced doesn't make sense if it's a protest unless EVERYONE, or a good majority of people knew of it.
If you, your wife, and your friends knew.......you're not protesting much, because with all those people you've already had indepth conversations.
The point of a protest is to publicly show your opinion. How is getting a divorce, which happens by the masses, going to do this? Now if you're doing it for the principle to satisfy yourself and your family....that's up to you and do whatever you want.

I'm just questioning it as a form of protest. Because, You also might be saying that marriage doesn't mean anything anymore if gays are allowed to be married as well, so you don't want to share a 'tainted' practice. But in that same right, no one holds marriage in proper lights anymore, by the very fact that you can get divorced.

To me, on a personal note, it shows disrespect to your spouce, a person you comitted your entire life to. If you hold marriage so highly that you would do this, the fact that you'd revoke it so easily puzzles me.

I'm not saying you don't love you wife or family, it just seems disrespectful that you'd end a union, legally, because there was some law passed.

Couldn't you rather hold the idea that your marriage is religiously upheld? I mean wouldn't that be enough? Or would you have to be as spitful as to make you and your family suffer simply because you didn't agree with someone elses lifestyle.....

Again I'm not picking on your anything, I'm really trying to understand your reasoning on this.

And I don't want the thread to deviate from you posting every third post :razz: lol.

I've spent a while trying to write a post for this and have got no where. Not really knowing where i stand on it hasn't really helped. It's not that i'm homophobic, closed minded or anything like that but something just feels wrong about it all.

Marriage between a man and a women is like salt and pepper, knive and fork, black and white and all those other things which go together to me. I really can't articulate but it just feels iffy, not how it was meant to be.

I guess i shouldn't hide from change, if they change it so gays can get married so be it, yey for all the gay people out there and good on you but if they don't then i'll not kick up a fuss about it.

Society has to evole but there is something about marriage, the tradition of it all that to me should stay unchanged. I don't know what else to say, good day to you.

crono, my wife and i share exactly the same views on homosexuality, everything i type, she agrees with.

we are very committed to our beliefs as well, to the point that if one of our sons came out today, he would not be our son tomorrow.. its that serious a breach of etiquette.. we would not try to discourage them from it, it is afterall a free country, but choices come with prices, and that the price in our family.

i hope that clears it up for you, as i said, its not religiously based, i have been married since 1981, and will not share that commitment with gays.

me: Orph, would you be opposed to it if one of the couple had to have a sex change before they could get married?

if the partner knew in advance of the sex change, then no, i would however be opposed to any hidden information like that.

Orph, in this case, your total lack of respect for your fellow man (and don't give me that s**t about homosexual people not being your fellow man, they are, get over it), totally sickens me. You talk about gay men as if they are the great evil doers of our society, spouting off about how you hate them.

the word hate means many things to many people, but it truly, best describes my feelings about the subject, when i think about it at all

the only thing i hate more than gays are cell phones, but people always tell me to mind my own business about those two, in spite of the fact that they do indeed infringe on my rights to drive on safe highways

What on Earth are you talking about? Name one way in which a gay man has even so much as inconvenienced you. That crap about the taxes is a weak excuse. Gay people don't get married for money any more than anybody else. 'but I saw it on tv.. the gays were saying!' - oh WOW, who would have thought it, an american news company blowing things out of proportion and putting accross a totally slanted and inflamatory view!.

What would you do if 17 years from now, you find out your grandson is gay? Would you disown him? Would your love for him suddenly turn into burning hatred? Will you now just dismiss this as an impossibility, and if so, how can you possibly do this?

Your very own reasoning is simply obsurd. If 'gay is passed down', then how the f**k could you ever hate somebody for being gay? Going by your logic, if it was passed down, it would not be their fault, and you would be hating somebody for something that is totally out of their control - that's as bad as hating somebody for being disabled.

Look at it another way, let's say 'all gay people are just delusional and misdurected' - if this is the case, how could you hate somebody for making a bad choice? If you have made the wrong choice so much as once in your life, then you would be a fool to hate somebody else for making a mistake in theirs.

So which is it orph? Either gay people are misdirected, and you are condeming a whole section of society to eternal hatred just because they made a mistake, or 'gay is passed down', and you are passing the same judgement based on something that isn't even in their control?

Please either pick one of these options, showing that you are capable of such baseless hatred, or reject both of these rediculous notions and admit that what you are saying is totally insensitive at best.

Two question, please answer them without yet another bulls**t 'i have my opinions, and i like them' post

Kay, but: [quote]
The point of a protest is to publicly show your opinion. How is getting a divorce, which happens by the masses, going to do this? Now if you're doing it for the principle to satisfy yourself and your family....that's up to you and do whatever you want.
[/quote]

That cleared it up, I was asking if it was a protest or not.

WHY SHOULD GAYS HAVE TO GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO GET WHAT EVERYONE ELSE GETS?

because?

you should not be different, but be treated the same?

I don't believe my eyes. The whole point of this debate, and many before it, is that everybody is different but should be treated equally. I suppose 100 years ago, you would have said women shouldn't be allowed to vote etc, because 'they are different and shouldn't be treated the same'. Or what about black people, I suppose they should be treated differently? Or native americans? The list goes on and on, and you find that in each case, people got over it and accepted the fact that not everyone is the same, and that we should not punish people just because they are different

crono, its a principal, not a protest..

and jeff.. as bogoted as i seem to be, i am just to fagged (pun definitely intended) to argue about it any longer..

you are my friend, but no where does that mean you must share my views, as flawed as they are.

nite/nite all

btw, its a shame you were not here today.. you peaked my interest jeff..

[edit] jeff, did you notice, that even tho many disagree'd with my reasoning, many still said they disagreed with married gays, yet you only quoted me.. does that mean you also disagree with same sex marrage, but for their reasons and not mine?

again, nite/nite

Whatever Orph, I specifically said not another bulls**t 'my opinions bla bla' post, and that's exactly what you did. Well done for having such valid and founded opinions.

scary_jeff said:
Whatever Orph, I specifically said not another bulls**t 'my opinions bla bla' post, and that's exactly what you did. Well done for having such valid and founded opinions.

jeff time and again, i have been counseled to ONLY post my views as opinions, now you condemn me cause i listen??

thats not entirely fair.. if i posted my views as factual, then you might have a case, but either i am allowed to voice my opinion as such, or not.. now which is it? or should we poll it to appease the gods?

i wont argue the point of gays, but i will defend myself from hypocrites who discount my beliefs.

I love how my posts are totally ignored because someone always has to say something stupid just before or after i post. I don't even know why i post this, it'll only be overlooked. YEY?!

Mr.Ben said:
I love how my posts are totally ignored because someone always has to say something stupid just before or after i post. I don't even know why i post this, it'll only be overlooked. YEY?!

gives ben a cookie

you want center stage.. you have it.. but your previous post, the one between the two stupid ones, wasn't particularly monumental.. you might practice a bit :rolleyes:

Why can't you answer either of my questions? They may be your opinions, but they mean nothing if they don't stand up to any kind of questioning. Of course you don't have to be quized on your opinions, but it makes what you are saying look kind of pathetic if you don't seem to have any basis for them, and can't answer simple questions on them.

[edit] MrBen.. what Orph said :smile: [/edit]

[edit2]I only quoted you because you were the only person who has totally falable reasoning for his views.[/edit]

Cookies = win. Well i've derailed this topic enough, carry on hating each other.

scary_jeff said:
Why can't you answer either of my questions? They may be your opinions, but they mean nothing if they don't stand up to any kind of questioning. Of course you don't have to be quized on your opinions, but it makes what you are saying look kind of pathetic if you don't seem to have any basis for them, and can't answer simple questions on them.

[edit] MrBen.. what Orph said :smile: [/edit]

[edit2]I only quoted you because you were the only person who has totally falable reasoning for his views.[/edit]

will it be ok then if i answer to morrow jeff, truly this day has been long.. you know i respect you on many levels, but we have disagreed often, with IMO no discernible winner, altho you might disagree with that assessment as well ..

[edit] in truth i didn't even read it , its length alone told me it was another dictorial, jeffery style, and i am tired.

if you made valid points, i might concede you them, but no promises..

you know, me being wrong in your eyes has NEVER altered my view of myself :wink:

ok jeff i read all that, and i must say, you managed to once again mix quotes, but thats ok, everyone does..

also the 2 questions seem unclear but i will answer what i felt was asked.

working under the pretense that gay is a taught thing, cause thats exactly how i view it.

1) if my grandson came out, he would indeed fall into the disowned category, that is not my choice, that is how it is. if you think like i do, then it makes sense, he would know up front, and non-negotiable the terms of his decision. again its not up for debate from members of the snarkpit, its how it is in this home. my wife and i are in agreement, and since we are the ones having to pay the price, i feel it is our decision alone, not yours.

2) respect for fellow what? who gives a rats ass about fellow man crap. i base my likes and dislikes on my own criteria, they are also not up for debate by the pit..

i am sure that something in your life has meaning to you, but to no one else save you, so how is it different when i, or anyone else has them?

if these answers are not satisfactory, tuff, its as good as they get. seems to me, my rights to have absurd viewpoints come in a distant second to anything here sometimes :rolleyes:

my views are not required learning jeff, accept them at face value and you will sleep better.. its not as if i am out to recruit members to my cause, in fact its quite the contrary, if i detected or was told i did so, then it would be different... corrupting young minds is no more my task than gays teaching the next generation of gays.

corrupting young minds is no more my task than gays teaching the next generation of gays.

You know, if it actually worked that way... Jesus Christ, Orph, it's not a matter of a secret "re-education process" or some Orwellian bulls**t. Every one of your views and presumptions is coming from the standpoint that there's this huge goddamned conspiracy in the world.

Here's the news: There's not. Homosexuality is not contagious, and it's not f**king taught for chrissakes. It happens. They are people. Deal with it.

And what's this "we pay the price" bulls**t? Don't you think he'd pay a price. Do you think he'd voluntarily just choose to cause you to do that to him if the situation arose? A kid at my high school stayed in the closet until the day his father died because he had the same mindset as you. If the same were true of your grandson, would you want him to do the same? To hold it inside, practically living a lie, just because he didn't want to deal with the trauma of having your aforementioned reaction? I guarantee living his life that way until the day you and your wife have both passed on would be far more traumatic to him than dealing with it would be to you.

Anyway, I'm out of this one. I'm having a more and more difficult time keeping my responses controlled from what is practically outright rage at some of the things I've read in this thread.

see you are still setting yourself up as MY judge, which is the same thing you are accusing me of.

i find it very difficult to accept, or to take people seriously, when they do the very same thing they are condemning me of.

my viewpoint is not up for debate, we are not discussing Orph getting married.

people know in advance, if you rob a bank and are caught, you go to jail, its not the same ,cause many believe homosexuality is NOT a crime, thats fine, but I DO, i do not have to justify it, i don't even have to defend it, people have had far more absurd beliefs without doing so.

listen close guys, you are making this go poorly, i could spout narrow views of your views of me, but thats wrong, and i refuse to stoop to such tactics.

my family KNOWS the price extracted for coming out, if it were to happen, so would the results, screw any other viewpoint cause they hold no value in my home, where guess what, I AM LORD.

now dammit, who needs to step back here? sure isn't me cause i have as of yet, committed no wrongs, there are no gays in my family, and by all i hold dear , i intend for it to remain so, in spite of public opinion, my word is law around here. (in my home)

andrew, all i can hope is, you do not have to face decisions that have no winners, cause you will screw it up with thinking like you currently have. sometimes, there are no winners, but choices still have to be made, i just like contingency plans. ones everyone are aware of. i would regret my decision all my life, but i would still do it.

my advice to both andrew and jeff, don't back me into a corner, cause as wrong as they are, i have my convictions, and will defend them. even if it cost me everyone here to do so. think about it, if i would judge my own kin so harshly, how do you think you would fair?

I have to admit that I will celebrate the day when all the people with these outdated, unfounded views on gays and other minorities are gone.

Ladies and gentlemen, whatever your drive to insult each other may be, debate is impossible without respect. Let's keep that up here, shall we?

Here's how it is: homosexuality, while accepted and even promoted in American pop culture, is disdained by the American public. The fact that we have voted time and time again for our officials and measures that put down gay marriage proves that the subject is at odd with flat-out democracy.

However, I look at it this way: if you held a vote for all the American people of if they wanted to pay taxes or not, what do you think they would go for? Democracy, while it is the most functional large-scale political system, gives its people the freedom to be wrong.

But we can't control that, and we shouldn't try to; Newsom, elected himself by democratic procedure, should not cut straight through that in order to make himself more liked.

I see it like this: if it is truly good and right that homosexuals get married, we as a nation will eventually realize this, and do so on a wider scale than from pockets of very outspoken but very few defenders. Until then, do not try to rush the people, do not try to rush the law.

And I say again: the idea of 'thoughts that are incorrect to have' sickens me. Actions that hurt people are wrong, but words and thoughts cannot be evil. This of course means that I would not embark on these crusades you all seem to relish in participating in against Orph, damning his anti-gay views with every last politically correct term in the book. While Orph shouldn't be going out of his way to insult all homosexuals either, if he is indeed the head of his household, the decisions he makes with his own children are his to make.

Realize this: a world that is all-accepting is just as bad as a world that is super-prejudiced, because both are ideas of perfection through same-ness. Both sides here are promoting their way of thinking as the 'best', and you'll excuse me if I don't quite believe such a thing exists.

Mr.Ben said:
Marriage between a man and a women is like salt and pepper, knive and fork, black and white and all those other things which go together to me.

JUNGLE LOVIN'! Or does interracial marriage offend Orpheus, too? You're just being close-minded, Orph...

One of my fellow Action HL mappers was gay. Awesome guy, we used to tease him about how he liked to make giant skyscrapers.... often two of them side-by-side... gay phallices perhaps?! The funniest was when some stupid kid would make homophobic remarks while playing his map. If only they knew! :biggrin:

on a penis-related digression, in the AUT2k4 dev channel we were talking about the need for GIANT PENIS SMESHES.

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<Superfisch> for some reason everyone wants a penis static mesh
<Melon> a huge one, please
<seekm> well you can always scale them :biggrin:
<seekm> to your pleasure
<Potshot> hehehe

• Superfisch scales Mels penis

<seekm> lol
<Melon> wow feels great!
<seekm> oh man
<seekm> hahaha

• seekm wipes tears

<seekm> you can scale mine next fisch!
<Jinx> lmfao
no do me!
<Melon> haha
<Melon> its your turn gentelman, im all done now
<Jinx> okay, I might have to share that in the other channel
<Superfisch> you will all receive penis scaling emails soon

• Jinx gives away secrit beta penis info

<seekm> aut2k3 is ready to beta test penis scaling!
<seekm> make announement!

[/quote]

Well said Cass. The way Orph has been attacked in this thread for his views is disgusting.

On another note, I don't see how any of you can difinativly state whether homosexuality is heredetray or an environmental phenominon. To the best of my knowledge very little scientific work as been done on this subject, therefore any impression you may have one way or the other is most likely a simple product of the cultural environment which formed your personality.

In reality it is probably not an either-or situation. Homosexuality has been around for all of recorded history, thus it must have some genetic componant. However I see no selective darwinian benifit to being attracted to individuals of the same sex. Quite the opposite in fact. If indeed it is a genetic abboration, it seems to me that the levels of occurence in present society are unreasonably high. this suggests environmental influences, i.e. people learning homosexuality.

On a personal level I'm disgusted by homosexuality. I simply cannot comprehend the consumeing hunger I feel towards women being directed towards men.

1st off, allow me to express my gratitude for the support, but i must say, it sure would have been nice had this topic remained as it did the first 7 pages, and you wouldn't have had to.

blushes

its hard for people like me to accept assistance, i always win, or lose, on my own.

2ndly, the answer is no jinxy, i am not racist, never have been nor will i.. the ideas of racist and prejudiced against gays, are not similar at all.

you must understand my upbringing guys, and you must accept this as i type it, not how YOU would interpret it to be.

racism is wrong, because people cannot help being BORN the way they are, hence it is so wrong to be racist.

homosexuality is a learned process, and a choice made by people, for whatever reasons, and can be frowned upon, without having to justify oneself.

now understand my quandary, i cannot blame people for how they are born, and if many of you are correct, and gays have no CHOICE, because it is a condition they are born with, then everything i have lived for has been for nothing.

people like me cannot accept being wrong on that scale, so we defend it until overwhelming proof is displayed to the contrary.

if its genetics, i am wrong, and i promise you i will alter my viewpoint accordingly, but i will retain the hope that science will isolate the deformality, before birth and repair the damage, there by removing the future hassles that poor child would have to endure from crass and uncaring people such as myself.

i will never apologize for my beliefs, no more than i expect you to appologize at being so close minded, about your open-mindedness (what a crock of an oxymoron).

if i am wrong i will admit it and strive to correct my wrongs, none of which have thus far involved real people. you may not live to see it, and maybe not i, but it will happen.

till then, i have committed no wrong, and need not answer to anyone, most especially not someone on the net.

I was honestly curious or rather confused when I asked about your position several pages ago, Orph.

I don't think anyone here is trying to say you're wrong for believing what you believe.

I mostly think that people are being taken back by it, because they haven't been introduced (thoroughly) to someone as opposed to this situation as you. I know I haven't, short of my parents. I think it's kind of funny though when people think its okay for gays to have a sexual relationship, and some find it erotic or funny, yet the moment they want something more from it, it's not okay anymore.

It's actually a continuing theme in our society and I for one and appalled by it. In general I'm disgusted by people?s lack of intimacy and monogamous relations. I also am confused by the double standards that exist at the moment. But, whatever. Everyone has the right to think what they want, and as Cass said, it isn't hurting anyone unless (or Evil) they manifest it to effect other individuals.

OK, so you would disown your own grandson.

Let me clear up the second question by breaking it down. What do you think is the cause of somebody being gay?

scary_jeff said:
Let me clear up the second question by breaking it down. What do you think is the cause of somebody being gay?

do you want it broken down into the millions of individual answers that you would get from millions of individual gay people?

Is that a joke? I'm trying to get a meaningful answer to my second question. After I have done this, I will have no more questions concerning Orphs position on this issue.

I saw a program on mice, studying homosexuality. they cut mice brains into slices until they found a point that occured in most gay people, They reproduced it into female mice & they became lesbian so to speak, they thought they were male.

Someone once told me about a study that linked overpopulation with homosexuality (done on rats/mice) which could certainly be one reason. Seems to have turned into an 'urban myth of the internet' though- plenty of crappy ezboard n00b topics about it, but no references to the original study :/

Unless Korn is right and there is something (genetic) in your brain, I can't see how being gay is anything other than nurture?

All the gay people I've known, they've been gay for as long as they can remember. Hell, they don't even call themselves gay, it's just the way they've been their whole lives, and they wouldn't see it any differently. Call it a genetic defect if you want, but it seems to be more like nature to me.

[size=13][color=white]

homosexuality is a learned process, and a choice made by people, for whatever reasons, and can be frowned upon, without having to justify oneself.

WRONG

Homesexualaltiy CAN happen during the whole birthing process, its all o do with the XX for females and the XY chromosones for males, the body is still the same for the male but with one slight problem, he is born with one extra X chromosone instead of a Y chromosone. [the opposite for females]

[/color][/size]

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width="95%" align=center bgColor=black>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold">
[size=16]my replies inserted in [color=orange]orange[/size][/color]

? posted by Orpheus

</TD></TR>
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<TD bgColor=#151515>
racism is wrong, because people cannot help being BORN the way they are, hence it is so wrong to be racist.

homosexuality is a learned process, and a choice made by people, for whatever reasons, and can be frowned upon, without having to justify oneself.

Religion is a learned thing, too... so is all culture... does that mean it's okay to hate people from other cultures or religions? You have to understand that your way of life is not the 'only' way, nor is any more 'right' than anyone elses.

I think it's still out there whether or not homosexuality is learned or genetic... I suspect it's more of a continuum genetically, tbh, with culture influencing which way peopel 'go'. For example, in the Goth subculture there are many more people who are BIsexual, rather than identifying as strictly hetero or homosexual. The guy I'm reading now says it's probably because the subculture is more accepting, whereas in mainstream society, or gay subculture, you are pushed into choosing one or the other.

Whether it is genetic or learned, gay-bashers will still argue against it. If it's genetic they'll call it a 'defect' to be 'fixed'. If it's cultural they'll say it's a 'choice' that people make to choose something that is 'wrong' (in their opinion). There is nothing rational about this anti-gay hatred, and certainly nothing scientificly or ethically justified.

which reminds me... OF COURSE you have to justify yourself. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Yes, you are entitled to your OPINION, but if you can't back it up in any reasonable way you can't expect anyone to respect it or take it seriously.

now understand my quandary, i cannot blame people for how they are born, and if many of you are correct, and gays have no CHOICE, because it is a condition they are born with, then everything i have lived for has been for nothing.

"everything I have lived for"?! you make it sound like hating gays is the focus of your entire existence. do you run some anti-gay organization or something?

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I never imagined you could have so much hatred in you Orpheus, for a group of people who have done nothing to you. It's really, really scary to me.

$loth said:

homosexuality is a learned process, and a choice made by people, for whatever reasons, and can be frowned upon, without having to justify oneself.

WRONG

Homesexualaltiy CAN happen during the whole birthing process, its all o do with the XX for females and the XY chromosones for males, the body is still the same for the male but with one slight problem, he is born with one extra X chromosone instead of a Y chromosone. [the opposite for females]

sloth, i am not even going to justify this, but i will say, i took advanced anatomy in high-school. i realize thats not college level stuff, but we thoroughly covered the chromosomes. you might check this out more and get back to us on it, cause unless some new discovery has happened in the last 23 years....

jeff, i have not been there when it occurred but i would think fishy is a lot closer to the answer than you might think. if i am correct, then it would actually be a myriad of things or events that cause gays to actually chose gay over straight.

many men, are in denial, but its a fact that men usually understand men better than women do, if the conditions warranted it, some men might just be weak minded enuff to not only seek out the counsel of men, but want, (thru the hormonal imbalances of puberty, and ALL the confusing things puberty brings with it), more than just counseling.

before puberty, i doubt that there is any way to show/prove/identify that a child will eventually turn gay, but during puberty, thats a whole different matter.

could this explain all? i doubt it, but i do know, children are very impressionable, and forgetful as well. most will not remember when this "gay" transition occurred, they will only remember it as "ALWAYS"

we all know, that in some shocking circumstances the mind defends itself, by forgetting, this might also attribute.. i am only speculating cause i cannot, and will not attempt to think like a gay, the thought of being aroused by my own sex, is worse than appalling so that precludes it, even were i able to force the thought.

how are gays taught? well jeff i reckon you will 1st need to find some, preferably more than just one, that will admit they were enticed (NOT COERCED as andrew would lead you all to believe :sad: ) and ask them to tell you. only in this way will you know, what it takes to make men, seek out the companionship of other men. if all gays deny they were taught, then all i can say is, it must have been one awful experience, to have caused them all to forget the event..

theres your answer jeff, take it, or leave it, but its the only one you will receive from this camper.

jinxy, has anyone ever told you that you have the ability to make mountains out of mole hills.. you really should not quote people till you can focus better, my life is all important to me, i do not have organizations founded to me, i have a belief system i govern my life with, when i speak of my life, it involves no one outside my family.

there are many wrongs in this world that have never involved me, should i ignore them too.. and don't attempt to persuade me gay is not wrong, cause it will effectively end this discussion.

lastly, there is either Gay, or Straight, there is no BI-sexual, once you have crossed the line, you are gay, you no longer have any claims on straight.. it would be akin to a part time rapist, or a part time robber, or murderer, you cannot part time an action even if you think gay is not a crime, it is a choice of action and there is no going back.

stop over analyzing my words, and adding meaning to them. i would appreciate it.

as i said, hate means a lot of different things, my hate, is more akin to a child hating spinach, if that analogy escapes you, oh freaking well :rolleyes:

scary_jeff said:
Is that a joke? I'm trying to get a meaningful answer

what kind of meaningful answer can you get to a question like

scary_jeff said:
What do you think is the cause of somebody being gay?

i didn't know there was only one cause, so i posted a rhetorical question that reflected this.

Well from what you are saaying Orph, it doesn't seem like, in your opinion, people make a decision to be gay? What I am trying to find out is whether or not you hate gay people for something that they didn't simply make a decision to be. Do you?

Orph, define "being gay" for us, I'm confused about your bisexual point..?

scary_jeff said:
Well from what you are saaying Orph, it doesn't seem like, in your opinion, people make a decision to be gay? What I am trying to find out is whether or not you hate gay people for something that they didn't simply make a decision to be. Do you?

jeff, IMO gay is a choice, a conscience decision, how that choice is made, is a bit fuzzy, cause like fishy said, it could have, or be most anything... i doubt anyone breaks some poor kids arm and forces them.

Leperous said:
Orph, define "being gay" for us, I'm confused about your bisexual point..?

bisexual is another non-word, created to make undecided gays feel better about their choice of partners.

again lep, its the sex thing.. i realize gays see themselves as more than sexual partners, but straight people for the most part do not see gay people as partners for any other purpose than sex.. is that wrong? possibly, but that is another discussion entirely.

IMHO you cannot be a part time gay, once you have had sex with a partner of the same gender, you are gay, you just happen to like sex with the other sex also... sounds a tad greedy if you ask me. <--- points at feeble attempt at humor.

now i have no qualms about continuing this topic, but someone else really must assume center stage.. the amount of dislike not withstanding.. many have said no to this question... how about you all ask THEM why..?

[edit] LEP the stupid edit option is forking up again :sad: i had to make jeffs answer red, i dunno why, but my responce is there it just fails to show up.

again lep, its the sex thing.. i realize gays see themselves as more than sexual partners, but straight people for the most part do not see gay people as partners for any other purpose than sex.. is that wrong? possibly, but that is another discussion entirely.

Ok, I think we're generalising WAY too much here.

Kage_Prototype said:

again lep, its the sex thing.. i realize gays see themselves as more than sexual partners, but straight people for the most part do not see gay people as partners for any other purpose than sex.. is that wrong? possibly, but that is another discussion entirely.

Ok, I think we're generalizing WAY too much here.

of course its generalizing, how else would someone say this without being so?

i mean seriously guys, whats this fixation on perfect clarity you all seem to have.. it has to be another attribute of age, cause i vaguely remember going thru the stage myself, but there are limits, and most of you have exceeded them.

a persons opinion doesn't have to be clear to anyone other than themselves, to be real.

stop asking me to explain myself, work harder at this open-mindedness you claim to possess and include MY opinions as a possible outcome too. i am not asking anyone to share my views, but i am asking you to take them seriously, that is if you really want some level of respect to remain.

i am about to leave for kentucky, if you guys want to continue being close minded, about your open-minded views, you will either have to wait for my return, or continue without me.

just bare in mind, if you continue, nothing you post will alter my mind, so chose your wording as best you can to reflect upon yourself, continuing to disregard my opinion as valid, only reinforces my view of not taking you seriously... disagree, but don't do so in a way that discounts my view as wrong. unless you are omniscient, i doubt any of you know for certain i am indeed incorrect.

i would like to point out, that although i am not privy to the entire world, my small piece of it has many whom share my views on this topic, (the marriage issue)

anywho's

be good.

Has anyone else noticed that this thread is turning into a debate which is starting to get a little bit out off hand? [no names mentioned]

Yes, definately. But that's what happens when you create a topic that people feel incredibly strongly about.

jeff, IMO gay is a choice, a conscience decision

OK, it seemed to me like you agreeing with people who were saying things like being gay is heriditary or is only because people are being misguided. If your opinion is that people choose to be gay, then fine, but I don't think you will ifnd many gay people agreeing with you - and afterall, they are more likely to know than somebody who avoids gay people at all costs.

As for the bisexual thing, you seem to misunderstand. Somebody who says they are gay means they are attracted to the same sex, and not to the other. If you are attracted to both sexes, then gay isn't the word, because a gay person whouldn't be attracted to the opposite sex. If a bisexual person said they were gay, it would be misleading, because this would imply that they are not interested in members of the opposite sex.

The way Orph has been attacked in this thread for his views is disgusting

Sorry, no. If I came into this forum and started a thread saying 'black people shouldn't be allowed to vote' or 'disabled people should all be deported', I could expect to take a fair bashing, because these are rediculous ideas. Remember that not so long ago, black people in western countries didn't have the same rights as everybody else, and disabled people were condemed to a miserable life in asylums - the ideas behind applying these discriminations are now largly considered to be stupid, surely you can see that such acceptance of that which is different is inevitable in any case where no harm results from this difference?

ww2 is a story that should be passed on and learnt from, accept other people who do no harm to you or anyone else. Hitler was a bastard, he killed thousands upon thousands because of his awful beliefs about innocent otehr cultures, hatred of homosexuals is so much the same its unbelievable people can have such opinions & not feel sick.

Orpheus said:
there is either Gay, or Straight, there is no BI-sexual, once you have crossed the line, you are gay, you no longer have any claims on straight.. it would be akin to a part time rapist, or a part time robber, or murderer, you cannot part time an action even if you think gay is not a crime, it is a choice of action and there is no going back.

Your analogy makes no sense. Bisexual doesn't mean you alternate between which sex you like, 'part-time', it means you are physically attracted to both sexes, not just one. Obviously the sex of who you are dating will be one or the other, but that doesn't change that you are bisexual. Comparing it to rape or murder is completely unjustified.

The problem, Orpheus, is that you don't back up anything you say.... it's like telling someone "your map sucks!" but refusing to say why. This is why people (including me) are getting fed up with you. You say you aren't religious, so that 'reasoning' is out the door. Scientists are pretty unified in the opinion that homosexuality is natural and unharmful. What the hell is so bad about it, then, that you condemn it so harshly? Does it threaten your ideas of what male & female gender roles should be?

$loth said:
WRONG

Homesexualaltiy CAN happen during the whole birthing process, its all o do with the XX for females and the XY chromosones for males, the body is still the same for the male but with one slight problem, he is born with one extra X chromosone instead of a Y chromosone. [the opposite for females]

Sloth that is completly wrong.

There are females who are XY, but there are no men who are XX. the reson for this is that all fetuses are female untill hormones are produced which give them male characteristics. if the fetus lacks a receptor for that hormone, they fail to devlop male characteristics and are assumed to be female upon birth. these individuals grow up as women, but require hormone therapy to mature.

Also, an "extra" chromosom causes downs syndrome, not homosexuality.

I think what's going on here is not that people are being close minded with their open mindedness. They just can't see it any other way, and usually if they think of hating someone for being homosexual, it disgusts them. It does to me too, to be honest. It would be the same as meeting someone who was an enormous bigot, and started making slang for every race they could think of, but meaning it. I think we're all set to aware mode when you meet someone who has such drasticly different points of view on the same subject, and it becomes hard to understand the other individuals point of view, however, the individuals who have the openminded views will most likely be able to understand and comprahend the close minded view and debate it, it doesn't usually work the other way around, though, as we're seeing here.

I don't think Orph is wrong for his thoughts, I don't agree with them, not in the least, but he has the right to think what he wants to think, and I don't think it's okay for people to start attacking him because of it (which some of you are). You don't bring in outside feelings of a person to something like this...I mean that's why they get ugly, someone gets offended and goes off on someone else, then there's about 10 people who read just that one post and rip one into the guy who said it all, and so on and so forth.

Anyway, if this is going to keep going, keep is civil, and try to ask your questions in a more respectful manner then a demand.

And I just realized that my entire post is a run-on sentence :smile:

[EDIT]
Also, Hitler was against homosexuals as well, they got the same treatment as the Jews, blacks (where there really any other ethnicity in europe? becides european and black?) and so on and so forth. Why do you think the KKK has turned into Neo-Nazism? Which is also disgusting.
[/EDIT]

[size=13][color=white]

The way Orph has been attacked in this thread for his views is disgusting

Sorry, no. If I came into this forum and started a thread saying 'black people shouldn't be allowed to vote' or 'disabled people should all be deported', I could expect to take a fair bashing, because these are rediculous ideas. Remember that not so long ago, black people in western countries didn't have the same rights as everybody else, and disabled people were condemed to a miserable life in asylums - the ideas behind applying these discriminations are now largly considered to be stupid, surely you can see that such acceptance of that which is different is inevitable in any case where no harm results from this difference?

[/color][/size]

Here Here :beerchug:

scary_jeff said:

jeff, IMO gay is a choice, a conscience decision

OK, it seemed to me like you agreeing with people who were saying things like being gay is heriditary or is only because people are being misguided. If your opinion is that people choose to be gay, then fine, but I don't think you will ifnd many gay people agreeing with you - and afterall, they are more likely to know than somebody who avoids gay people at all costs.

The way Orph has been attacked in this thread for his views is disgusting

Sorry, no. If I came into this forum and started a thread saying 'black people shouldn't be allowed to vote' or 'disabled people should all be deported', I could expect to take a fair bashing, because these are rediculous ideas. Remember that not so long ago, black people in western countries didn't have the same rights as everybody else, and disabled people were condemed to a miserable life in asylums - the ideas behind applying these discriminations are now largly considered to be stupid, surely you can see that such acceptance of that which is different is inevitable in any case where no harm results from this difference?

As per his point above, Orphs position is valid. Based on the premise that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice, not a genetic characterisitc, he has every right to discriminate against them. His point is not equivilent to racism.

scary_jeff said:

The way Orph has been attacked in this thread for his views is disgusting

Sorry, no. If I came into this forum and started a thread saying 'black people shouldn't be allowed to vote' or 'disabled people should all be deported', I could expect to take a fair bashing,

Crono started a thread asking for opinions on gay marriage. Orf offered his. he explained quite clearly from the outset that he seen homosexuality as a choice, and that he felt stongly that it was an immoral choice. whether i agree with it or not, it's his opinion. he also explained quite clearly that he was not racist, as race is not a choice. same with disabilities.

so why does he deserve to be attacked for having this opinion?