dod_belfort

Sorry I guess my post was somewhat pointless, but it was more the fact you said "the only text that isn't showing up is the trigger_multiple", so I though you might have thought that was the problem that the default skin could cause. Meh, should perhaps have read your post properly.

Anyways, any more opinions/reviews/bug reports? I'd really like at least one more outside look through so that I can make a few more fixes and release a true beta. I've also taken the liberty to upload a version with the smoke effects and some more detail here and there. http://members.shaw.ca/cplusdod as always. note don't be alarmed that the .bsp is smaller, the map is just as large, but it's been optimized in a few spots.

very nice Gorby. from the first screens you posted it looked very much like it was always gonna be a good one.

games where i die without knowing where it came from tend to annoy me, so i dont play dod. this means i cant really comment on gameplay or know what the custom resources are. but i can say that the map holds a quite difficult theme together very well all the way through. nice ambient sounds add to it perfectly.

i found one thing though, that may have been a slight oversight.



the little pall of smoke in the pic seems to rise from nothing. i thought it may have been intended to rise from the blast mark to the left, but then i noticed the area that the smoke rises from is either clipped or has some other invisible structure there.(i could climb on it)

if i was to be overly harsh, i would say that the texture used to wall off all the lanes/allys is a little overused. a little more variation of height and textures on these walls, and i'd give the map 10/10.

n1 :biggrin:

That's a steam issue, look at my newest page of pictures and you'll see that there is actually a car where that smoke is.

Same with a handful of lamp models, they just aren't showing up. No messages or anything. They just aren't there.

[edit]This picture:

Ok either that bench is huge, or that car is made for small cirus midgets!

<!-- ZoneLabs Popup Blocking Insertion -->small circus midgets!!!!!!!!

Seeing the scale of the map, the car's small.

cry I really hate Steam. Now it's reached a point where it's adversely affecting mapping. That is so not cool. They really did break something that wasn't broke. It's making me really not want to release a full version, it doesn't potray my vision as WON does, and then they're going to phase it out. If that happens anytime soon that'll be the end of my HL mapping and I'll be moving on to something else. VALVe has been betraying those most loyal to them for too long. /end mini-rant

It seems like many people who do a lot of mod work for half-life end up annoyed with valve... WON closes when HL2 comes out afaik, but I think I heard something about somebody wanting to keep WON going themselves... or something. It wouldn't be too big a load because not many people would still be using it.

Much updated version available now. http://members.shaw.ca/cplusdod

I fixed the model issue, but still have to work on the trigger_multiple messages.

New Stuff:
-overview (poor one, I'll make a nice one for the release.)
-3 custom objective sprites (I'll use all 6 in 1.2...the max is 3 right now.)
-Modified the MG spawn protection on the Axis side to a 2nd tank to reduce entities + it wasn't working well enough before no matter which settings I tried.
-Fixed brush errors here and there, as well as texture issues. (Sticky doors in the Allied HQ, some rubble piles.)

To do:
-Nicer overview
-3 more custom sprites when 1.2 is release.
-One or two odd textures that I've seen during play-test.

Comments and suggestions please :smile:

Well, just in time for 1.2 I've finished packing up dod_belfort for a beta release. There is currently nothing in the bug list and that's what the beta is for...to fill it up again so I can improve upon it. I'll let this beta play for a month or two to get a wide range of input and fix it until the eventual final version is released.

Current to-do for the final release:
-2 more custom objective sprites.
-Nicer anti-spawn camping methods for the Allied side.

Anyways, the file can be found in my profile.

I've tested it both in v1.0 WON and v1.2 Steam and it works as intended.

r_speeds are generally in the 300-800 range with a few obscure spots reaching 900. So far as I know it doesn't go past 1000 anywhere.

Pictures (and file) can be found here.

If I could get some mirrors for the file that would be great, and the more people I can get to play the map the better.

I'm looking for feedback in all aspects especially places where it disrupts gameplay (i.e. sticky areas or places that you don't quite "fit" very well.) Anyways, feedback as you see fit. Enjoy.

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

I?ve been meaning to take a look at this map for a long time, and now that finals are over, I actually have time.
Critiques are designed to be harsh? blah blah blah Gorb obviously all this and I trust you will not be offended by anything I say.

So, without further ado



This looks really odd. I know it is as was stated earlier to fix texture misalignment problems, but I feel that if you are going to have such a drastic texture change, there should be some geometry to explain it. I think just making them protrude a few units would fix this problem.



More of the same. The doorframe in particular should protrude from the wall.



Very, very dark. I suppose this is an area to use your flashlight in which might be a good idea, but I think it might be more trouble than it is worth.



I love the messages.



I also love the ant spwan-camping technique!



This just looks wrong. A fieldstone wall like that should be broken and stepped around the door frame if you want there to be a hole around it. you could also just extend the wall so that it is unbroken over the doorframe but the broken wall might look better. I suggest a mixture of the two.



Nice models, and I like the _spots, but it looks very weird for the model not to be lit. yo might also consider a subtle glow.



The textures here just look too clean for a demolished building. the white plaster in particular is pristine, when it should be smudged and dirty.



I think that church tower needs something more. Just a dark opening suggestive of a bell within would do.



I?m always frustrated by things like this that I cannot climb up too. I understand this might be a problem for line of sight reasons, but it would be a cool sniper post or MG nest.



These lights are just weak, in addition to being too dark IMO.



It?s a bit annoying to have to balance on top of that one barrel. you should extend the clipping so that you can?t fall down next to the wall, although that might look a bit odd.



The storm drain is just a bit weak. it is implausible that it could transport the entire volume of this river.



On the other hand this side has a truly elegant solution to the problem of your river. This beautiful area deserves something better for the other side. also I feel that there should be at least a subtle push from the flowing water.

Most of the stuff you suggested actually existed previously...but the problem is I am already at the limit for planes, entities (I'm actually way above it...) clipnodes and a few others. I hate the lamps in the tunnels, they used to be models but I couldn't do it...Steam fscked it all up and wouldn't show any more than a certain amount of models. I have no planes and such to extend stuff out, it's optimised as is. I'd like to do all that stuff and technically did, but it just can't support it in regular HL. :sad:

I can't add glows because that's too many entities. I can't add too many more textures because that's too much data to load. (cause way the hell to many problems, already went through that route.)

There's no point to getting up on that building I clipped since it's the Allied spawn, you'd never see action there. If I can push it for the final release I'll open the 2nd floor of the Destroyed Building. But I can't afford much more.

I don't really see much problem with the drain...if you've been paying attention to the thread this has been debated to death if I make it too much bigger the r_speeds monster is going to bite me in the ass. I tried making a push in the river but it just didn't seem right, it's not flowing fast enough to warrant pushing.

That's all I can think of currently. Oh and the church is so tiny that making a bell in it just seems squished but I'll see what I can do.

Critiques are designed to be harsh

You say this, then make the most tiny of criticisms, like 'this texture should look a tiny bit more dirty' I think that only being able to find such insignificant problems is the sign of a near-perfect map :smile:

Nice crit though, the point of my post was to say that the map seems as close to perfection as it's possible to get, not that you shouldn't have done a crit :razz:

The one thing of all those that I can see being changed is the brightness of the lamps in the tunnel. I've debated what setting I should use, but that'll have to be in the final version. It also depends on how your monitor is set up, without glare I can see in the tunnel with relatively low gamma/brightness and I'm trying to find a balance because some people play with gamma that is just way the hell too high, so I'll find a sweet spot for the final version.

[edit]And thanks Jeff, it's nice to hear all sides, eliminating nitpicks is always good too. :smile: [/edit]

Agreed. There isn't much wrong with it. and no, I havn't really been following this thread. I just pop in once in a while to see if there are any pretty new screens :smile:

Would it put you over the entity limit to make func_illusionary protrusions for the posts? that wouldn't add anything to your clip budget.

It probably would, I might be able to find a workaround though (I've had that for like 1,000 different things...so many workarounds and little changes.) Not going to promise anything, but it'll be in my mind for sure.

suggestion for those doing critiques..

before you do one, take a moment to set your resolution to 800x600.. because, thats the upper limit allowed by the pit, but more importantly, the text under it does NOT REALIZE IT, so it extends to the size of the original screen shot.. thus defeating the purpose.. the extra sizes causes the side scrolls to reappear.

turning your resolution back to your normal desired level is to simple to overlook this easy solution..

/ 2 cents

p.s. its so nice to see others doing critiques :biggrin: nice job

I just have a photoshop action defined for making snarkpit screenshots - after opening all the images I can just click a button a few times and their all resized and optimized. I should probably get around to using the batch thing too, could do all images in a folder in one click that way.

Ok, here's the things I noticed...



I got stuck in this bush just outside the allies spawn - not too sure why, but it might be the terrain underneath I guess.



And stuck again in the same area! Its a wierd one this, I couldn't move any further forward, and yet when I backed up a fair bit and then ran across the area again I had no problems whatsoever anywhere here.



The flag on this tree isn't very indicative of where the capture point is, I found myself running around not know where to go to capture it.



This could use a trim or something, looks pretty bad.



Looks a bit odd that those windows are really bright while the others are fully dark.



I seems like there is no point allowing access to the back of the church outhouse, it just provides camping potential since nobody can approach from behind. I think you should possibly make the wall meet the front of it, like with the main church building.



So many identical walls in this section of the map, its like a maze :sad:



Are those even the same texture? If they are, align them, if not, why not?



Those branches wouldn't hold the tree up parallel to the ground like that, looks rather unnatural.



The capture zone for this flag is massive, you can be all the way at the other end of the tunnel and still get it.

Also, the tunnel leading to the church outhouse is absolutely huge, it takes ages to run it! Its also near featureless, making it extremely boring to run along.

Anyway, those are my criticisms, but on the plus there are just as many points really. Nice map, but a bit sparse in a few areas overall.

I really hate the clip hull...it just generates really oddly sometimes. (The reason you get stuck on those hills sometimes, but not always.) I've tried the NS tools with the precise clip but that is even worse, with that on every wall slows your movement down like glue for some reason.

[edit] The reason the tunnel cap is large is because it's actually part of advancing spawns (There are advancing spawns from the tunnels and from the estate.) And I wanted greater potential for changeover on those two spots...hence both 2<SUP>nd</SUP> story houses can be capped in the middle and the tunnel is large (although really it's only a "T" so if you can't cap the area you know someone from the other team is in that range.)

[edit] Oh, and about the mazy-ness. I kind of like that aspect, since in all honesty if you were just invading on a new town you'd be pretty confused too (I'd rather it be a tough to memorize map.) Other people in other forums seem to really enjoy that aspect. But in all honesty it's not like I could change it either.

I might be able to get a chance to run through this before it's final release, but I'm not positive yet. Fantastic stuff Gorby, you deserve a pat on the back for birthing this bitch. :smile:

Hello, Duncans flatmate and long time (3 years ish) dod player.

Your map looks nice but does have some problems. I have only played from axis so haven't really checked the play from the allies yet also not actually played it, rather ran around for a look.

Your main area looks nice, but the two flags are way too close to each other, also having the flag on the tree instead of the building where the capture takes place is confusing!! Also the tree to get over the water needs a jump to get on it from the alies side which would get annoyin. Also why bother with the tree to get over when you can shoot fine from the water anyway?

The tunnels are too dark and cramped. They remind me of Snowtown, the original tunnels were well lit and were wide, his lead to some interesting battles. However in the next DoD release snowtowns tunnels were very dark. This made it an absolute death trap to use. Plus with it being so thin the axis get a great advantage with the kar98, although this is somewhat taken away by the new garand changes.

The main battle area could be too easily controlled by the axis, remember they get two mgs, as I could only find one enterance for the allies direct from their spawn, the tunnel bit, which could be very esily camped by a mg42 or m34. There might be another way for the allies that I haven't found yet so correct me if Im wrong :smile:

The level is also way too big. Try dod_switch thats too big and maps with so many capture points are annoying!!! From a spawn a player in DoD should get to a good fight area in around 20 seconds or less. Also much of your level is small paths that leave little room for movement such as flank attacks etc, speaking of which the main left route (from axis side) and the right have no real connections for fast redeployment.

The sound effect when the flag in the tunnel is captured is an interesting change though, and by and large your level is well textures and looks nice (not like the caen or merdat texture jobs from 1.1) and the central battle point would work very well as a basis of a dod map it is just the surrounding areas that let it down.

Though take what I say with a pinch of salt as I haven't played it with other people yet.

/me waves hello at Duncan's flatmate.. and suggests that he whole heartedly consider signing on under his own membership..

welcome to snarkpit.

He is no mapper I'm afraid, just has an interest in DoD so figured he would take a run through (bored students eh, we'll do anything to pass the time!).

ReNo said:
He is no mapper I'm afraid, just has an interest in DoD so figured he would take a run through (bored students eh, we'll do anything to pass the time!).

we have people here who don't map, don't map well, and no longer map for HL..

i think he would fit in just fine..

talk him into joining us duncan.

I've aquired a few mirrors along the way:

http://www.4thidusa.com/maps.htm

http://www.ucfiles.com/files/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=473

www.lanmaniax.com

That second one doesn't work bud. :smile:

Fixed, I had to retype it because of formatting issues. Mixed up an 's' and a 'c'.

This map seems to harken back to old-school DoD maps where everything is more open and spacious, so I would think it's a nice change from dense maps like Switch and Avalanche. I didn't notice any bugs or texture errors.

However, I don't remember if you said you are near the engine limits or not, but if you aren't I would certainly try and add more detail to the tunnels and the outdoor passageways, at least to break up the monotony of grass and wooden walls everywhere. The sections with buildings were very nice, as was the German spawn, but I'd like to see that level of detail spread throughout the level. Probably impossible, but I'm suggesting it anyway. In addition, I don't think there's enough cover in many of the areas, with only a couple bushes and trees. Where are the craters, the destroyed vehicles, the road? I would think that you weren't going for the attrition/defend then move up kind of game and instead for more run and gun, so I could see why additional cover would hinder that.

All in all it looks very nice, and the trees and bushes are impressive.

I had a play around on it yesterday morning with 7 players and 5 Sturmbots to make up the numbers. Some of these comments are a general consensus of opinion and not mine.

It looks at least as good as some official DOD maps, big thumbs up :biggrin: Theres lots of nice detail touches like the way the treeline above the wall has been "layered" to make it less of a 2d flat effect.

Now for the bad stuff...

There's far too many tunnels in the main part of the map, they're confusing and easily camped.

You could get away with fewer tunnels that are wider with underground rooms - crypt under the church, a much bigger wine cellar under the house etc.

Tunnels leading out from the Allies spawn are ok as it lets players get out of the spawn.

Could do with another exit point out of the Axis spawn.

Too many of the above-ground bits are made up of long corridors. They need to be disguised more - made wider or shorter, more buildings put in, some rock outcrops etc.

The stone wall tex is overused.

The church is very nice but its wasted, a far more open layout will prolly improve it - add an extra path from the destroyed building round to the side where the mortars are, merge the other side and front entrance approach into a bigger area.

On the Allies side of the river with the single house there's only one entrance point thru a tunnel. It needs at least one more entrance on that side of the river - a path into that house from the Allies spawn will prolly work.

On the Axis side of the river near the car theres a high wall that you can't jump over - would be better if it was possible to jump over one bit or put a hole in it so you can just run thru'

That river section is my favourite bit - about the right size and with enough cover so that you've got a chance of getting across.

The map size is a tough call, its about 50 seconds between spawns using the shortest path which ain't too bad. But i'm guessing that the tunnels are making it feel much bigger than it actually is.

Its one of the better maps we've played and quite fun when everyone stuck to the above-gound bits. Tried not to repeat other posters, apologies if i have :smile:

beer hunter said:
Tried not to repeat other posters, apologies if i have :smile:

personally i am quite impressed.. you have some of the few truly usable info posted so far.

nice critique.. and all done with no screens :smile:

That sounds an awful lot like you are knocking the rest of our critiques as useless orph :rolleyes:

Nice feedback though, its really good you got a proper playtest together too :smile:

ReNo said:
That sounds an awful lot like you are knocking the rest of our critiques as useless orph :rolleyes:

Nice feedback though, its really good you got a proper playtest together too :smile:

did it??

hmm maybe it could be read that way but why..

you have two sentences in your reply but only the second one corresponds to my posting.

my critique was rather large... and far from useless, why would i downgrade my own effort?

seriously duncan, if you read it that way i apologize, but feel you should not be so negative.

i did say he made a good job and used not screens.. i couldn't have done as good a job as i did without them :sad:

why must people assume the worse? :/

personally i am quite impressed.. you have some of the few truly usable info posted so far. nice critique.. and all done with no screens

Thanks Orph, i appreciate the comments, yours and Reno's crits are also pretty impressive :smile:

I gotta say its a lot easier to get decent feedback from a group of peeps who've actually played the map. The only downside is the time it takes to write it up so that it makes sense.

No screens ! lol, must use some next time.

Nice feedback though, its really good you got a proper playtest together too

Thx. Errr, i didn't do a playtest specifically for Gorby tho', its just a regular get together and new maps are sometimes put on the server.

That doesn't take away from the fact it was a proper playtest though :smile:

Orph, it wasn't the part about no screens or that it was a good critique, it was this...

personally i am quite impressed.. you have some of the few truly usable info posted so far.

Sounds like you are saying the rest of the info / suggestions / comments posted before him weren't of use. If thats not what you meant its not an issue, but I don't really see what else it could mean.

ReNo said:
That doesn't take away from the fact it was a proper playtest though :smile:

Orph, it wasn't the part about no screens or that it was a good critique, it was this...

personally i am quite impressed.. you have some of the few truly usable info posted so far.

Sounds like you are saying the rest of the info / suggestions / comments posted before him weren't of use. If thats not what you meant its not an issue, but I don't really see what else it could mean.

i know it read wrong, i am tired..

i meant, he actually used the map and critiqued it.. most of the rest of us just looked at the maps architecture and posted screens on how it could/should be improved.

i am still sleepy as hell, if this new explanation does not satisfy you that i meant no harm.. oh well.. i will wait till i rest next time.

also, read my line you quoted, read it this way.. "you posted excellent feedback, without the assistance of pictures."

sighs

i need sleep, and i have to leave for Pittsburgh soon... 4 am comes early

just accept, i meant it better than it sounded.

Ah ok that makes sense I guess :smile:

Gorbachev said:
I've aquired a few mirrors along the way:

http://www.4thidusa.com/maps.htm

http://www.ucfiles.com/files/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=473

www.lanmaniax.com

In addition to be being on rotation for the 4thIDUSA server, it has now been confirmed to be included in the next update for Kustom Kettle. (one of the biggest DoD custom map servers) so at the beginning of the month check www.kustomkettle.com and play it :smile:

Good for you :smile: I'm glad this map got that sort of recognition.

www.kustomkettle.com
Of the 7 or 8 new maps he added mine got front page :smile:

you spelled my name wrong in the credits.

don't tell many people i helped, it might bring your stats down :smile:

Oops, I forgot to include the other credit file...it isn't the final version yet, and since not all playtesting is done I have time to compile all the seperate help.

is it finished, or still beta?

it isn't the final version yet

Does that count as a correction? :razz:

Seeing as it's in rotation on about 4 servers I'll collect information from the results and finish off the map next month or July. I'd like to finalize it, but not if it's unbalanced.

I just played a round with 21 people, man does it get interesting.

Whoa... :eek: I was looking at this map before I went to sleep and it was in my dream.

ReNo said:

it isn't the final version yet

Does that count as a correction? :razz:

yes/no

i have had final versions that were not finished.. usually a name change or something trivial..