Light bouncing, ruining atmosphere

My question: How do i stop light from bouncing off surfaces?!

I really need to know how to turn off or reduce lights bouncing, because it really is destroying the atmosphere of my night-club like map. The majority of the interior is fine, lighting-wise. However, i really dont like how my lighting is bouncing outside at the back of the building, near trash and boxes (where it's supposed to be dark and perfect for a ambush) I have two flickering light_spots, and because of the light-bouncing effect that hlrad does it lights up all the nearby walls, effectively making the entire area a giant flickering mess. Urgh. And that makes it very, very ugly AND unballanced. (How's a enemy supposed to sneak against a flickering wall where there's no direct lighting?)

Im guessing it's a command that can be done in hlrad, however, i just don't know what it is or how to alter it.

-bounce 0 (or whatever number of bounces you want. I believe default is 1.

Example command:

hlrad mapname -bounce 0

Im absolutely sure that that's the answer, but it's only solving half of the problem, and the other half still remains:

Where do i put the command?

[edit - im not using a batch file to compile (im terrible at .bat construction) but am instead using VHE's expert and normal modes. im running win XP, and i tried setting the command on the hlrad.exe itself, but to no avail.]

In advanced mode, under $light_exe add "-bounce 0" (without the quotes) after the $path/$file parameter in the parameter's box.

<!--code-->Code:<TABLE width="95%" align=center><TR><TD>** Executing...
** Command: C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\hlcsg.exe
** Parameters: c:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\maps\LIGHTT~1

[snipped CSG and BSP.]

** Executing...
** Command: C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\hlvis.exe
** Parameters: c:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\maps\LIGHTT~1

hlvis v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7p13 (Feb 3 2004)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (webmaster@xp-cagey.com)
----- BEGIN hlvis -----
Command line: C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\hlvis.exe c:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\maps\LIGHTT~1
243 portalleafs
785 numportals

-= Current hlvis Settings =-
Name | Setting | Default
-------------------|-----------|-------------------------
threads [ 2 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ off ] [ off ]
estimate [ off ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 4194304 ] [ 4194304 ]
max vis distance [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

fast vis [ off ] [ off ]
full vis [ off ] [ off ]

BasePortalVis:
10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90%... (0.11 seconds)
LeafThread:
10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90%... (7.83 seconds)
average leafs visible: 129
g_visdatasize:6952 compressed from 7533
7.98 seconds elapsed

----- END hlvis -----

** Executing...
** Command: C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\hlrad.exe
** Parameters: c:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\maps\LIGHTT~1 -bounce 0

hlrad v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7p13 (Feb 3 2004)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (webmaster@xp-cagey.com)
----- BEGIN hlrad -----
Command line: C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\hlrad.exe c:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\maps\LIGHTT~1 -bounce 0

-= Current hlrad Settings =-
Name | Setting | Default
--------------------|---------------------|-------------------------
threads [ 2 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ off ] [ off ]
estimate [ off ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 4194304 ] [ 4194304 ]
max lighting memory [ 6291456 ] [ 6291456 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

vismatrix algorithm [ Original ] [ Original ]
oversampling (-extra)[ off ] [ off ]
bounces [ 0 ] [ 1 ]
ambient light [ 0.000 0.000 0.000 ] [ 0.000 0.000 0.000 ]
maximum light [ 255.000 ] [ 256.000 ]
circus mode [ off ] [ off ]

smoothing threshold [ 50.000 ] [ 50.000 ]
direct threshold [ 25.000 ] [ 25.000 ]
direct light scale [ 2.000 ] [ 2.000 ]
coring threshold [ 1.000 ] [ 1.000 ]
patch interpolation [ on ] [ on ]

texscale [ on ] [ on ]
patch subdividing [ on ] [ on ]
chop value [ 64.000 ] [ 64.000 ]
texchop value [ 32.000 ] [ 32.000 ]

global fade [ 1.000 ] [ 1.000 ]
global falloff [ 2 ] [ 2 ]
global light scale [ 1.000 1.000 1.000 ] [ 1.000 1.000 1.000 ]
global gamma [ 0.500 0.500 0.500 ] [ 0.500 0.500 0.500 ]
global light scale [ 1.000 ] [ 1.000 ]
global sky diffusion [ 1.000 ] [ 1.000 ]

opaque entities [ on ] [ on ]
sky lighting fix [ on ] [ on ]
incremental [ off ] [ off ]
dump [ off ] [ off ]

colour jitter [ 0.0 0.0 0.0 ] [ 0.0 0.0 0.0 ]
monochromatic jitter [ 0.0 0.0 0.0 ] [ 0.0 0.0 0.0 ]
softlight hack [ 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 ] [ 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 ]
diffuse hack [ on ] [ on ]
spotlight points [ on ] [ on ]

custom shadows with bounce light
[ off ] [ off ]
rgb transfers [ off ] [ off ]

[Reading texlights from 'C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\lights.rad']
[64 texlights parsed from 'C:\PROGRA~1\VALVEH~1\tools\lights.rad']

1427 faces
Create Patches : 4977 base patches
0 opaque faces
32983 square feet [4749650.00 square inches]
188 direct lights

BuildFacelights:
10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90%... (2.44 seconds)
FinalLightFace:
10%...20%...30%...40%...50%...60%...70%...80%...90%... (0.02 seconds)
2.53 seconds elapsed

----- END hlrad -----

** Executing...
** Command: Copy File
** Parameters: "c:\program files\valve hammer editor\maps\lighttest.bsp" "C:\SIERRA\Half-Life\valve\maps\lighttest.bsp"

The command failed. Windows reported the error:
"The system cannot find the file specified."

** Executing...
** Command: C:\SIERRA\HALF-L~1\hl.exe
** Parameters: -applaunch 70 -dev +map LIGHTT~1.bsp</TD></TR></TABLE><!--/code-->

"The command failed. Windows reported the error:
"The system cannot find the file specified.""

what?!?

Ok this is really really wierd...

I set -full on vis, -extra and -bounce 0 on rad BOTH AFTER the $path/$file thing AND in the Parameter in expert/advanced mode.

And i still get light bouncing on my map.

HOWEVER!!!

When i go to another map (just a simple cube room with one light_spot and a player spawn) and compile with the same settings i get no light bouncing and the harshest constrast of shadow and light you've ever seen. Just to test, i removed -parameter(s) and set the -bounce # to anything other then 0, and higher then 2, and i got the same effect that im getting in my actual map.

On top of that, when i compiled my actual map with those parameters, i got a error about 'The command failed. Windows reported the error: "The system cannot find the file specified." ' while when i compiled the smaller map i got nothing; it compiled perfectly.

This is one really screwed up problem...

Could it effect anything that i have about 3 to 6 other light_spots in the area? none of them give me a error when i compile without the -bounce # though, so i doubt it's that... sigh

[edit - OK, i tried copy+paste to a different .rmf with a different name, reduce the light_spots in the area to 4 (they were at eight) put vis on -full, and rad on -extra and -bounce 0 in expert mode... It's still giving me a "command failed" and it's still making the lights bounce. i went back to the bouncetest map (the map that had no -bounce 0 issues) and messed around with it, and i couldn't recreate the problem.]

Maveric said:
[edit - OK, i tried copy+paste to a different .rmf with a different name, reduce the light_spots in the area to 4 (they were at eight) put vis on -full, and rad on -extra and -bounce 0 in expert mode... It's still giving me a "command failed" and it's still making the lights bounce. i went back to the bouncetest map (the map that had no -bounce 0 issues) and messed around with it, and i couldn't recreate the problem.]

The "command failed" error indicates that the VHE compiler cannot find the BSP. So what you're actually seeing is still the old bsp with the bounces on.

First, go to the .rmf's directory and check if a .bsp is generated. Then manually copy it into your halflife/valve/maps folder (overwrite the old one) and run it. I have a feeling your paths may be configured wrong, or there are other errors preventing the tools from generating the .bsp.

Okay this is strange.....a person wants no bounces.... I think your problem lies in the fact that you may have too many lights in your map to get what you want. Try cutting down on your map's lights if thats the problem.

Okay this is strange.....a person wants no bounces...but in anycase you need at least one bounce to even have lighting, it needs that first bounce for calculations. I think your problem lies in the fact that you may have too many lights in your map to get what you want. Try cutting down on your map's lights if thats the problem.

Thats not true ... no bounce means no light bouncing off objects lighting other objects. There is still lighting, but only directly from objects.

However, his suggestion is correct, in that ally lower your lights value, if they're spot lights make the 'spot' smaller. give it a harsher outer fade and such.

omegaslayer4777 said:
Okay this is strange.....a person wants no bounces.... I think your problem lies in the fact that you may have too many lights in your map to get what you want. Try cutting down on your map's lights if thats the problem.

How would that help? Bounces are not determined by the number of lights... :rolleyes:

Crono said:

Okay this is strange.....a person wants no bounces...but in anycase you need at least one bounce to even have lighting, it needs that first bounce for calculations. I think your problem lies in the fact that you may have too many lights in your map to get what you want. Try cutting down on your map's lights if thats the problem.

Thats not true ... no bounce means no light bouncing off objects lighting other objects. There is still lighting, but only directly from objects.

However, his suggestion is correct, in that ally lower your lights value, if they're spot lights make the 'spot' smaller. give it a harsher outer fade and such.

you got to the old post fast crono and frag, I corrected myself once I saw bounce 0 worked, but I still rest behind what I said, lower the lights. Because any map without bounces is already extremely dark, the only way I can think of to make a map darker is to use less lights.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="95%" align=center>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold" bgColor=black>? posted by fraggard</TD>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#151515>How would that help? Bounces are not determined by the number of lights... :rolleyes:

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

How would it help? well just stop the lights at their source, and prevent them from lighting too much :rolleyes:

Less light source = less light bounced

AH HA!

HA HA HAH HAH HA!

VICTORY!!! THE VICIOUS PROBLEM IS SLAIN!

Turns out i had to check the box marked "Use long file names"! However, Frag DID point me in the correct direction when i saw, in the .rmf folder, i had TWO versions of my map!

One was in dos format, with only the first 6 characters and then a ~1 (IE: XXXXXX~1) While the other one - the one that i wanted - was in normal windows format (full-name, as many characters as you want)

A big thank-you to anyone who helped me!

Glad you got it fixed maveric

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width="95%" align=center bgColor=black>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold">? posted by omegaslayer4777</TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#151515>[quote=Crono]

Okay this is strange.....a person wants no bounces...but in anycase you need at least one bounce to even have lighting, it needs that first bounce for calculations. I think your problem lies in the fact that you may have too many lights in your map to get what you want. Try cutting down on your map's lights if thats the problem.

Thats not true ... no bounce means no light bouncing off objects lighting other objects. There is still lighting, but only directly from objects.

However, his suggestion is correct, in that ally lower your lights value, if they're spot lights make the 'spot' smaller. give it a harsher outer fade and such.
[/quote]

you got to the old post fast crono and frag, I corrected myself once I saw bounce 0 worked, but I still rest behind what I said, lower the lights. Because any map without bounces is already extremely dark, the only way I can think of to make a map darker is to use less lights.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="95%" align=center>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold" bgColor=black>? posted by fraggard</TD>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#151515>How would that help? Bounces are not determined by the number of lights... :rolleyes:

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

How would it help? well just stop the lights at their source, and prevent them from lighting too much :rolleyes:

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Do you even read the posts? He does not want less light, he wants more contrast between light and dark. The only way to achieve this is to cut down on the number of bounces because bounces deaden the sharp difference between light and dark areas. If you cut down on the number of lights, you are not gaining a contrasting look, you're just losing a lot of lighting. It's much simpler to just fiddle around with the gamma and bounces on HLRAD.

He said that he had too much light in his ally and he thought it was so bright because of the bounce value. Now, if he already set bounce to zero and it is still too bright ... well .. change the damn brightness of those lights. Also, he said he has an inside of a night club, but I'd imagine you'd want some bounce in there, unless its some goth themed club.

Or at least, thats what he wrote.

Crono said:
He said that he had too much light in his ally and he thought it was so bright because of the bounce value. Now, if he already set bounce to zero and it is still too bright ... well .. change the damn brightness of those lights. Also, he said he has an inside of a night club, but I'd imagine you'd want some bounce in there, unless its some goth themed club.

Or at least, thats what he wrote.

/me was talking to omega.

Meh.

.......... woops.
be more specific next time.

I can't imagine wanting to create 'harsh black shadows' or whatever for atmosphere. All it does is look like you ran RAD incorrectly. There's no reason not to have bounce 1, and if its too bright where you want it dark reduce the number or intensity of your lights.

Another effect you may want to experiment with is coring. I haven't tried it myself, but it is my understanding that it will make your shadows darker. What it does is set a minimum light value for a face to be lit, if it isn't higher than this value, it will be black. Of course I'm sure it would take a bit of tweaking to make it look decent.

Just thought of looking here take a look at the 'dscale' option. Its pretty much what you're going for. You can use it with a combination of dlight and maxlight to get all the shadows smooth, but hard.

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