copyrighted textures

yeah i heared that ns textures are copyrighted and may not be used in maps for other mods. now i have 2 questions.

1) is this true? and if so where is this mentioned?

2) how do we know what are ns textures and what not, whithout having the ns wad.

the thing is i use atleast 2 textures that i saw being used in (unofficial?) ns maps, but i got those from the 'force of evil' foe.wad, named {teckwall01big and metwall , via a link provided by gua in juli on the snarkpit news

thx in advance

wait for andrew, he'd know..

Loads of the textures are from www.shaderlab.com, and as such are free to use. The website is still being redisigned right now though, so you will have to get the texture pack that they used to host from somewhere else. I think they also use some textures by 'evil lair', which are also free to use from http://evillair.net/textures.htm Only the textures actually made by the NS team or modified specially for them come under their copyright.

[edit] *spots kfs in thread... waits to be corrected :smile: [/edit]

I believe the NS textures are exclusively for use in NS.. as far as I
remember they are at least. Bit of a bugger if they were included in
Gua's news, but if its 2 out of like (was it 400mb or something of
textures?) I can't see it being too big a problem..

I'll slap his wrist if I see him around :biggrin:

Personaly, I find it lame. They are such nice textures too, but no, they want their textures only used for NS maps. Although if you really wanted the textures, there are ways around it. Like making your own texture based on a NS texture. Should be legal. Although the NS team wont like you very much. Who cares.

Well, if modding HAS to be free and usable in game, surely they CANT copywright textures that are Unencrypted, for a game which is free itself and that is based on another game! wait! let me go dig up the half life SDK lisence agreement...

ok, i have looked at the ns faq and it says:

Can I use the NS textures, technology, game world, concept art or anything else for any purpose other then Natural Selection?
No. The team has worked very hard to create the NS universe. Please don't e-mail or post asking to use our textures, models or technology for other projects. You can, however, use any artwork from NS for an NS fansite, or NS community resource. You may never use anything from NS to make money, nor may you ever state or imply that any NS assets were made by anyone other then the NS team. If in doubt, e-mail flayra@overmind.org before using anything. Any inappropriate use of any NS content will be pursued aggressively.

This personally seems a little too agressive to people who want to use textures from ns in the game that SPAWNED ns!

If anyone sees a reference to this in any EULA's, post here, i am quite intregued by this.

also if anyone is in law school/is a lawyer, look into this also. as an EULA is a legally binding document, right?

I have sent an email to flayra saying:

To Flayra:

Just seeing a thread on some of my faviorite forums, they are inquiring about why you are so prominent to not allow your textures in other maps/mods, even for original half life. Also I am quite intregued to see where in any of the valve/Half life EULA's it states people or teams of people are allowed to deny use of thier textures in other games. If you can see any mention of the above statement, please can you email me back with the related document(s) and where in the document.

Best regards
Dred_furst/Loz

There was more to this post, but i del'd it by accident with the edit tool.

You create something original, you are allowed to copyright it, simple as that. I don't see how it matters where you allow the use of what you created.

well, it may be original, but there are hundreds of excellent textures, that aren't allowed to be used anywhere but in this particular mod, which i sometimes enjoy, but mostly would like to use for some other mod.

I am not copying the textues, merely using them, and i do not see any rule in the eula saying that they are allowed to do that. they may endorse it, or even hate what they have done, but do they have the right to say "no" and deny people the right to use it, with a reference to the original author.

I am totally against the idea of stealing textures, slightly re-working them then saying they are thier own.

I guess this is more of a question of are people allowed to use other people's textures in other games at no gain except using some beutiful textures.

I am totally for people giving credit for other people's work.

Dred_furst said:
I am totally for people giving credit for other people's work.

some would say "isn't that mighty big hearted of you"

i don't believe in copy rights, but thats another story best left in the annals of snarkpit history :biggrin:

the copyright is the sole reason that i dont play NS

you know, this does bring up an idea i had last time we talked bout this..

how can one copyright a texture? wouldn't it be just as easy to copyright the idea of texturing first?

i mean seriously, if you cannot copyright the concept of texture creating, how can you copyright a texture?

better yet, how can you copyright a free public released texture, and if you could, whats to prevent someone from changing the names and releasing the texture set with no strings attached?

seems to me, its enticing people more by denying them the right to free use, especially when you consider that 99% of the maps will never see the light of day, and the good releases may provide people good enough to join the NS community.

the only reason, ONLY reason i never used them was because andrew asked.. nothing else motivated me to not to.

You can't copyright ideas, period.

A specific texture falls under a piece of art which you CAN copyright. If the person who created the texture says they don't want you using them outside of their MOD, they have every right to say that. Especially if you agree to their terms by installing their mod.

So, they're not doing anything illegal, they being anal about the issue, but they have that legal right.

If you're wondering how to copyright a texture or anything for that matter without spending thousands of dollars and years waiting for an official one. You produce a like copy of your item and mail it to your self and never again open that item. The reasoning behind that is, the postmark date acts as a government date of authenticity. If someone else comes out with your product after your date, you take them to court and you have proof that it was yours first.

However, that is always a temporary copyright. Even normal copyrights only last 30 years after the owner dies (or something like that). Granted, these are US policies, I'm not sure how they transfer overseas.

Crono said:
You can't copyright ideas, period.

you sure? i was under the impression that you could copyright a concept... hmm no wonder i dislike this topic :sad:

in that case, its a patant you need to take out, not a copyright.

Somehow, i dont think the NS team is going to mail 200+ textures to themself in seperate envelopes to act as a copyright.

A patent is meant for ideas/concepts. Last time I checked a texture is NOT an idea or concept. And you can easily mail yourself 200+ textures. They could take their entire mod, burn it on a cd, and mail that cd to themselves.

Here:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html#website

Maybe those will clear up some confusion.

Crono said:
Maybe those will clear up some confusion.

not confused so much, as denial

Dred_furst said:
in that case, its a patant you need to take out, not a copyright.

Somehow, i dont think the NS team is going to mail 200+ textures to themself in seperate envelopes to act as a copyright.

When it comes to law, you better.

:razz:

I think that Using is not the same as copyright, so that explains some things, and i feel "copyright" was used for a reason in the title, note the inverted commas.

So what they are doing is more of denial of use rather than copyright. denial of use is like being given a bicycle then being you can only ride it inside your garage.

it's more like being given a ball, but you're only allowed to play with the ball if the person that gave you it can get a game too.

Hush now. This is the forum where questions are asked, questions are
answered, and so they sink into the primordial soup of editing
knowledge,

Thrashing out pointless additions is tedious, a waste of time - and
above all, a waste of bandwidth :razz: And we all know the dangers of using
all the bandwidth, don't we? :wink:

and no i dont think this is the official line, but it makes sense :smile:

Gwil said:
Hush now. This is the forum where questions are asked, questions are answered, and so they sink into the primordial soup of editing knowledge,

Thrashing out pointless additions is tedious, a waste of time - and above all, a waste of bandwidth :razz: And we all know the dangers of using all the bandwidth, don't we? :wink:

and no i dont think this is the official line, but it makes sense :smile:

hmm, the concept has merit, maybe you should patent it :heee:

seriously though, i am trying to imagine us moving all derailments discussions to "general"

i'm game though, cause i did sanction the creation of the question/answer/reward ideal :smile:

Crono said:
A specific texture falls under a piece of art which you CAN copyright. If the person who created the texture says they don't want you using them outside of their MOD, they have every right to say that. Especially if you agree to their terms by installing their mod.

i havent agreed to anything as i havent got ns installed, and i most certainly didnt rip it out of their .wad ...as mentioned i got them out of the foe.wad provided by gua. Moreover, i only stumbled upon this accidently by seeing these textures in screenshots of some ns maps, now i dont know if i use more ns textures besides those 2...

thx for trying to figure this out. so it seems that its useless and i best replace the textures, which isnt funny as they form the main style in the map, +-60% (or release it as a CO_ map :/ ). You guys are 100% sure they are ns textures and not foe textures, right?

people have bitched for years about using stolen textures bud, but i have yet to see the texture police arrive at anyones home..

if the textures are so ingrained, i'd leave them.. i have not seen the map yet, but i am doubting its professional quality, so i doubt they will sue.. course its your call.

/ 2cents

I doubt they'd sue anyone at all. If your map became heavy rotation, they'd probably contact you and be like "HEY!". But, the whole idea is a respect thing more then a legal thing, however, if anyone really became a problem with taking credit, they could easily sue them.

what bandwidth limit?

Snarkpit's, it has gone down a few times since the site has had too much traffic. Larger then the servers allowed monthly bandwidth. (Happened month before last, I think).

You can use the textures. I believe that some of the DM maps submitted
for a snarkpit competition last year had some of the 'NS textures' in.
KFS' map certainly did, and there was also some controvosy last year in
the NS forums about a similar modification to NS being built on a
different platform which also used the textures.

So you are free to use the textures you want, although I suggest giving credit.

No, Andrew's map did not use original NS textures. It used some Shaderlab textures that were included with NS, but were not original NS content and therefore were not covered by the restrictions.

Copyright exists as soon as any original work is created. For example, here is what Writers' and Artists' Yearbook has to say on literary plagiarism:

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
Copyright exists as soon as you (or anyone else) records anything original to you on paper or film or disk. If you want to quote or otherwise use any material which is someone else's copyright, even if it a short extract, you will have to get permission to do so, and possibly pay a fee. ..... You must always give full acknowledgement to the source of the material. Use copyright material without such clearance and acknowledgement and you are guilty of plagiarism - and another name for plagiarism is stealing. There are some circumstances in which you may use small amounts of text under a rule called "Fair Dealing".

[/quote]
Er.....A & C Black Publishers gave me permission to quote that on a website forum :heee:

The NS team are entirely within their legal rights to restrict the use of their textures to NS maps. They own the art, and there's nothing you can legally do about it. Of course, you are not likely to be prosecuted, provided that you are suitably unsuccessful and lame.

Gollum, by that logic I could copyright all my maps, models and textures; I could even copyright my website code and all the images too. But I can't for the latter due to the licensing of PHP; similarly, I believe the HL licensing forbids you to copyright any materials you make for the game as Valve will automatically own it. Though HL doesn't seem to come with an eula anymore saying this, so maybe that's why they did it...

i wanna copyright my critiquing method :heee:

dodges onslaught of bricks

/runs

All site content ? Leperous & respective owners, 2002-2004

Hmmm.....

In so far as your maps, models and textures etc. are original work, they are copyright to you. You don't need to go through some process to obtain a copyright - it's just there automatically.

However, as you say, there are limits imposed on copyright by other binding legal agreements. At what point does a texture become "game materials"? Unless you use Valve's software to create the texture, it cannot be affected by their licensing agreement.

I don't know what the exact copyright status is of maps - that depends on the EULA - but textures at least should remain the property of their original authors.

Then I suppose they've copyrighted the pictures themselves (visual art works) rather than the whole .WAD... Anywhos, I can see the point, and we've been into this several times before, but I'm still against it in this case- nothing about CS was diminished due to 'over-use' of its textures :/

I would not be happy if someone copied this website, for whatever use. The difference would seem to be that textures are designed for people to copy and use, whereas websites are built simply for people to use (and not copy), and that is only because of the mindset of people and "unwritten rules"... ho-hum.

Yes, I agree that it's a bit mean of them to restrict the texture use. It would probably have been wiser to make the textures public domain - if anything, it might add to the popularity of NS ("Wow, where did all these great textures in your map come from?" etc. etc.).

I can see their point too - Flayra and the NS team put a lot of work into making NS unique, and wanted to guard that uniqueness. It's also a potential investment, since NS is "semi-commercial".

I think the right attitude to take is a sort of grumbling respect for their decision :smile:

I don't necessarily agree with the idea of not allowing other people to use the textures outside of NS, but I think there should be some acknowledgement and credit given where its due. I always include the mod team or individuals name in the txt accompanying my maps, thanking them for their resources I used, and generally giving them the kudos they deserve. Not allowing anyone to use the textures when they are, as dred_furst pointed out, not encrypted in the map but included in handy and removable wads seems a bit silly. Generally when a wad file is included it is acceptable for people to take it and use in in other mods and maps. If it's compiled into the map, fair enough, other wise its fair game.

NS cannot be "semi commercial" as it states in the limited EULA

Whereas, Licensee wishes to develop a modified game running only on the Half-Life engine (a "Mod") for free distribution in object code form only to licensed end users of Half-Life;

and you were saying about the EULA used to state in early versions, look:

1.3 Reservation of Rights. Valve reserves all rights not explicitly granted herein.

Dred_furst said:
NS cannot be "semi commercial" as it states in the limited EULA

Any mod. can become commercial if Valve agrees to it (cf. CounterStrike), or if the concept is later used to create a standalone game. Effort and I believe even some money has been invested building and protecting the NS brand, which is why I call it semi-commercial: it is not commercial, but has been developed with a care for future commercial possibilities.

I choose my words carefully :razz:

and there is sven-coop. they say it's a token of thanks to people that have 'donated' money to them, to hard code their steam I.D.'s into the game, and give them extra-powered weapons.

one step further would have mods selling advertising space in their official map packs.

fishy said:
and there is sven-coop. they say it's a token of thanks to people that have 'donated' money to them, to hard code their steam I.D.'s into the game, and give them extra-powered weapons.

one step further would have mods selling advertising space in their official map packs.

Sven-Coop is also the most picky mod-team I've ever seen. Recently, they've gone nuts over the use of NS textures (which we're discusing) in a few popular maps. The maps are already on everyone's computer, so there's no way to stop it.

Unless, one day, Sniper made the old maps go mysteriously "uncompatible" with the next version....

I dont think that donator features is a bad idea, its an extra feature you get, and it isnt breaking the rule of

Whereas, Licensee wishes to develop a modified game running only on the Half-Life engine (a "Mod") for free distribution in object code form only to licensed end users of Half-Life;

So its fine, you just get a bonus feature, and they do run compos sometimes, which i so happened to win...