Dungeon Death

Hey Guys. I submitted a few maps yesterday. This being one of them. This is my first SP map and I put about 2-3 months work in it. There are 2 dungeons and one church area. First, you must find a bible, then a sword, then find dungeon two. It may be pretty difficult to find out how to get to the sword, so if anyone has trouble completing the objectives, PM or email me and I can send you some links to demos. I implemented direct references to DOOM, Zelda, and Quake. The point of the game is to exit the dungeon. But, as you know, the name of the map is Dungeon Death, so, of course it won't be easy. The only real bug I can think of is a clipping error that may occur when a certain trigger_changelevel happens.

After playing, comments/critiques would be greatly appreciated.

screens:

1) file size to big.. Xat is calling to you.
2) link broken
3) file size to big.. Xat is calling to you.
4)screen in fine
5) link broken


[edit]

screens of 800x600 are preferred, but 1024x768 is acceptable.
800x600 will reduce to around 50k
1024x768 will reduce to around 75k

anyone who is not getting these numbers is prolly not using XAT..
i have heard so many great things about so many other programs, and yet, the file sizes of them are close to double of XAT.. shrugs some people are just slow to catch on i reckon.

anywho's at least try to get the broken links up.. we can work on file sizes when you get a program that will suffice :smile:

[edit 2] i went ahead and made this really big, so it would not be continued overlooked..

i would hope that advice this good being overlooked is not indicative of how much attention a maps advice will be taken :sad:

Dammmn tracer, and you are one of our easiest to please types too..

musta been somethin..

/me awaits more comments..

back when doc still acted white, i did a critique for him, the last time BTW, but to make a long story short, it was compiling issues that did it.. his construction was always a bit nasty, but you could tell it and over look it.. but that particular map had issues that were not explained easilly..

look at the numbers on this screen you posted.. the numbers do NOT support 11 fps.. that tells me there is an underlying issue, most likely compiling.. try it again, with gl_wireframe 1 and 2 on.. see what its seeing and maybe then..

i have played 1900+epolies before, i have played 5000+ epolies before with numbers higher in fps.. there is something else wrong than construction i bet.

ok, enlighten me, what are dynamic lights?

Dynamic lights are um... lights that have dynamic settings :razz:

Any light that is set to "flicker" or some such causes this problem. You just can't have very many of them in one scene. I think what happens is that the compiler has to make a separate lightmap for each state of the light, so when you have flickering or fading light it has to continually load and reload the appropriate lightmaps. I.e. dark/in between/light. The other possibility as that the engine calculates the lighting values on the fly, and just adds them to the static lightmap that the compiler produces. Either way, you can see how you are going to take a major performance hit. In the first case it is a RAM issue, in the second, a CPU issue, and I'm not sure what actually happens.

Perhaps 'animated light' is a better word here? Dunno...

I think it's all done during the RAD process. That would indicate why
you can't have more than 3 lightstyles on the same face, e.g. it would
become nearly impossible to calculate all possible lightmaps, let alone
what would happen in-game.

OK, then, thats what i thought.. now.. go dload my map Double_Trouble and post a screenshot of the castle area.. there are two or three each on those torches.. i think its three.. but i want to see your r_speeds..

i have a sissy comp and it runs smooth in there..

now if it runs smooth on yours too.. then i bet its a compiling issue..

while you are there, rate the map :biggrin:

I'm sorry...but I do get a smooth 50+ fps on a 1.54 GHz machine....There should be no areas in the map where the map is unplayably slow

I like the concept. You should make this map for svencoop. AFTER improving it.

Allrighty then. My bad. I underestimated the effects of having MS word running in the background.

I stand by what I said about dynamic lights though, be carfull with those things. Among other things they can induce seziures in the unwary. I'll do a propper critique when the burning red recedes from my ears. You might say this was a "slnky" day for me. Thanks Orph.

so? i take it D_T run pretty good?

Yeah...I know I need to make things less blocky....I was going more for concept and having fun making it hard to get to the end of the maze/traps/objectives. I tried to implementate a lot of non traditional ideas...I will be back tommorrow with better working links, etc.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>so? i take it D_T run pretty good?</DIV></DIV>

I'm sorry...I don't understand

EDIT:

Also...I relinked my jpegs and toned them down to 800x600

EDIT 2:

Weird...all links work but not all pictures were properly resized...I converted all of my screenshots with AP7 and yet the link is still somehow some are mysteriously linking to the phantom 1024x768 imgs I deleted....

So basically the idea for my next map should be

Not to be so crappy

Dark Tree said:
So basically the idea for my next map should be

Not to be so crappy

tracer bullet is one of our best critique writers, give him a chance to get the last of the foot taste washed out of his mouth, and perhaps he will fulfill his promise to write one up for you..

remember though, finished maps do not receive the level of attention as work in progress ones.. so you may not get a really big critique.

If he (or anyone is willing) to critique my map and give me some usefull ideas (ie change lighting stlyes) and stuff like that...I still have my RMFs and would be willing to re-engineer my map to make it look a lot better and more playable. I did want to just quit building it....as I had been working on the 3 bsps for about 4 months. But if Tracer thinks it is reperable...than I could give it a go. I do aim to please and would like a many to play and enjoy this map. So I will change my map from being completed to maybe 75% done so I can re-texture and redesign it so it doesn't create "headaches."

Click the link "new comment" and you can rate maps

The levels look bland and the lighting needs to be fixed... a lot. Also align the brick texture on the inside of that round stair case.

In it's current state, the mappack is indeed very bland. Not only
architecture and lighting look like they've gotten little attention or
tweaking, the traps and puzzles could also have been executed better.

I see a quite common problem here. Puzzles without clues and traps
without warnings. This will often annoy the player instead of amuse
him. Hiding a key behind a moveable wall without any sign is surely a
good way to hide it. But a player won't be happy when he's stuck in
your level... wich he will likely get.

I don't say: give the player a walk-trough beforehand, but I do want to
stress that you need to give the player some sort of idea on what has
to be done. Let your puzzles appear logical, so a player can find a
solution to them without having to know how the map was built.

As for the story's end... personally I find such endings little
satisfying... after all, you had to play trough some levels and all you
get in reward is... death...

I've had it once in a mod called 'Case Closed'. It really buggered me off, finding out I would be killed in the end anyway...

Oh, and I would advise you to search for some reference pictures. It can help you to get your levels look more convincing...

My problem was....I downloaded a map called 'Winter Maze'. It was a holiday-seasoned maze map. It was small and too easy to beat....no monsters...easy maze. So I decided to make a maze of my own....I originally was only going to spend ONE night one it...just for fun to whip up a big maze (hence the rectangular dungeons). As I spent 1 day...then 2...then 3....I realized I wanted to spent a little more time on it...so as I went on the map got more into detail....but seeing as it was only supposed to be a one day project to begin w/, I didn't feel the need to go back and fix what I already did. And now...well....time to get to work, lol.

ps: Thank you very much, Cap'n for your map sugg's

Edit:

Are there any pieces of the map that are good?

Well, now that I?ve managed to extract my foot from my mouth?


This shot is pretty representative of the general texturing/architecture/lighting level of this map. Suffice it to say it isn?t very high.


This is a nice touch as far as it goes. It explains where you came from, which is something that is often overlooked.


I don?t appreciate being trapped. If you are going to setup things like this, just kill the player. Also, these halls are WAY too narrow. they are simply irritating to navigate.


Um.. Yeah. I?m inside a cramped little cylinder with no lights in it, yet there is light?


This is the best constructed are I found, but you should note that you have too many env_shooters here. My HL crashed twice when walls collapsed.


Flat lighting, simple architecture, lighting errors on the pillars, and boring texturing all let this are down.


The stained glass window is a very nice touch.





Your little death messages are kind of amusing, but it does get kind of old to die with no warning.


It?s best not to expose unlighted edges.


The sword is kind cool, but it would be cooler if it didn?t entirely replace the crowbar. Now I?m going to have to delete this model to get the crowbar back. Ditto for the bible/satchels.

It?s an interesting concept. I think it would be very cool to see a good first-person dungeon crawl in HL, but I?m sorry to say I can?t think of much else positive to say. You obviously have some significant technical mastery of HL since you were able to put together some relatively complex entity setups, but the visual execution was, to put it nicely, somewhat less than desirable. Texture misalignments are rampant, the architecture is rudimentary, and the lighting gives me seizures. In far as game play goes, I can?t say much there that is good ther either. It is far too easy to get stuck, traps that kill with no warning are irritating and everywhere, and corridors are so cramped as to make navigation difficult. If there is a redeeming factor to this whole effort it is the weapon replacements, but as I mentioned, even those are a source of irritation because they replace existing items. I think if you want to do something like that you really need your own mod folder.

I say take this idea and run with it. This could be allot of fun if you were to spend about 500 times more effort on it next time.

Guess what... I just took a template mod folder and threw all the stuff in there... :smile:

But you're right, TB, a mod folder is always handy when you're using other models and generally just a lot of extra resources.

Where can I get a template MOD folder? I realize you prolly made it on your own...but how do you get it....is there a thread somewhere I can read about making this my own mod?

Edit:

What is an env_shooter? I never used an entity by the name of that...I don't think...but I DID know that HL crashed occasionnaly at the same spot as you did...though I don't know why

All a mod folder needs is, obviously, a folder, and a liblist.gam file
within. Sure, you would also place a maps and models folder within this
mod folder, and more stuff, but the liblist.gam is the most important
one.

I'd advise you to take a look at how the valve and/or cstrike folders
are organized, and how they filled in their liblist.gam. It's not
really hard to find out.

An env_shooter shoots models or sprites, depending on how you set it.
At the VERC there's a good entity list wich covers all of the HL
entities. Go and take a look whenever you want to know something about
a specific entity. Most of them come with example maps too.

Dark Tree said:
What is an env_shooter? I never used an entity by the name of that...I don't think...but I DID know that HL crashed occasionnaly at the same spot as you did...though I don't know why

I was assuming you were using a shooter because of the large number of concrete gibs that get spawned when the walls break. My experience has been that lots of gibs produces crashes, hence my assumption that this was the problem. I bet if you get rid of the or "gib model" or whatever key it is in the func_breakable the crashes will stop. If there is a way to specify the number of gibs, keep it low. I don't use breakables much as you can tell.

Hey guys...

My map is now marked 85%...I had added some dramatic changes to my map based on all of your critiques/screenshots. Thus far I have:

Made the walls wider

Made the game a mod

re-textured the dungeon and church areas

fixed the crash error upon entering the church

removed a lot of the dynamic lights, making them normal

made more dynamic mm's in the church and dungeon area

Added warnings for all traps (so you won't die so unexpectadly)

Removed unlit edges so they can't be seen

Fixed the lighting gfx errors on the pillars in the church

Made the lighting less flat in the church and dungeon

Made it more realistic in the pillar so that if you see light in there, you know why

Aligned the brick texture on the staircase

I will change the ending so that the only out isn't death, to make the game more fun

I am also looking up reference pictures, to make my dungeon more convincing

So...that is most of my chages thus far but I now have some bugs to work out...like...I can't figure out why my func_illusionary's are fullbright even with rad compile...Why would they do that? They are just normal fun_illusionarys with rendermode: texture fx: 255 ......it is a vine tex included in the hl.wad so it isn't some weird custom tex, either.

Also....I posted a new map editing question in the forums....how do I add an autosave function in my SP mod?

I will post updated screenshots tommorrow.....I am trying to make this map re-playable...so it will be worth going through again, even if you already have done so already! IT should be different enough to see if it is any better...plus...it is a mod, so you don't have to worry about replacing the crowbars/satchels/sounds, either! :smile:

New Screenshots are up :smile: compare/Contrast with old ones!



Added light/changed tex



A little better lighting/a little more detail/different tex



A new door I am working with



Aligned the tex on the bricks/changed tex



Darker/different colors/more detail

Hopefully by Friday I should have the newer/better beta of the map. There are lots of better changes from the old one....refer to the previous post :smile:

lighting =

I can't say I like your texture choice for the ceiling of the church type area, or the structural detail really, but it is an improvement.

Exactly my words, TB.

I would add that I still think most area's are too blocky and flat. But lighting indeed has greatly improved.

OK....I will try too make things less blocky and flat....and change the ceiling texture....what do you guys suggest for a better texture in there and in my map.....? Should I just go back n' browse wadfather?

I think the texture would look okay as long as the support structuring looked more realistic. What you have no doesn't look much like real architecture. I suggest you take a field trip down to your local church and look at how it's put together. Either that or crawl up into your attic and take a look at how roof tress's are put together.

? quoting Tracer BulletI think the texture would look okay as long as the support structuring looked more realistic. What you have no doesn't look much like real architecture. I suggest you take a field trip down to your local church and look at how it's put together. Either that or crawl up into your attic and take a look at how roof tress's are put together.

Your grammar broke the thread.

(There is an extra page that doesn't exist.)

EDIT:
(There was an extra page that didn't exist.)

Yeah, I don't know what happened. I couldn't view anything but the first page.

Dark, here is a screen of what I think a dungeon should be.



That took me about an hour to put together, including finding the textures on wadfather etc. I know this isn't an example of church architecture, but I think you were doing better there than in the dungeons themselves. See how I have some solid stone pillars and supporting beams that look as though they might actually hold something up? it really helps develop the sense that this is a real place and not just computer graphics. Obviously this scene is not perfect, but I think it's a good example of the LOD you should be trying for.

I've given it a wide aspect ratio so that it feels oppressive and cramped even though it is really quite spacious. This I think adds to the feeling of being underground. note also that the ceiling is rough, and looks as though a piece might fall and crush you any minute... (speaking of traps)

On further reflection I think my pillars are actually too slender. If i were to make this into an actual level, I'd want to revise them to have more of a massive presence.

Awesome thank you very much for taking time out to do what you have done to aid me in my 'quest'. The final product of this map will be kickass......

....speaking of which...HL2 comes out in about 6 days....is it still gonna be cool to map/play HL1 stuff? Because this map won't be done for a little bit if I wanna make as cool as I originally planned...

also....what map is that a screenie from...did you JUST make that?....as an example?...you guys are not getting paid enough....lol....if you want me to host a file or something sometime...I am currently making/managing everything on my new website...I already host someone elses files from this site

I may just take you up on the hosting offer at some point in the future. If I were you, I'd jump for HL2, especially with your proclivity for traps. I should think the physics engine would be a godsend.

As for the map, yes, I made it just as an example. I'm a slightly depressed, unemployed, living with my parents, college graduate. I've got nothing better to do. Glad I could be of help.

Of course I will map for HL2....my question was...should I finish this for HL1? Or leave it be....Is it worth it to finish an HL1 map? OR should I port it to HL2.....will it be possible to open HL1 Rmfs in Hammer4?

? quoting Tracer BulletI think the texture would look okay as long as the support structuring looked more realistic. What you have no doesn't look much like real architecture.
I suggest you take a field trip down to your local church and look at
how it's put together. Either that or crawl up into your attic and take
a look at how roof tress's are put together.

Your grammar broke the thread.

(There is an extra page that doesn't exist.)

EDIT:
(There was an extra page that didn't exist.)

Irrelevance and pedant is your middle name, huh? :razz:

Plus, I imagine taking a trip to American dungeons is fairly uninformative when tryint to research renaissance/medieval topics..

Go google "crypt" "crypt photos" "mausoleum" "cathedral" etc etc for a good view of crusade type dungeons...

The page really was funked up before I posted that ...

How can two names be one?? How can I have ONE middle name which is both Irrelevance and Pendant? Jeez :rolleyes:

(My middle NAMES are actually Arabic)

You know, I'd actually give advice on the map if TB didn't point everything out already.
Oh, in that quote TB was talking about the church's structure inside the map, not the dungeon's.

Just thought I'd chirp in with my input on the HL1/HL2 topic.
Personally I'd say build it from scratch in HL2. You've been given
valuable feedback here from Tracer, and if you take it on board from
the start of a new level I think it will turn out much better than this
one, even if you went back and added detail to the whole map. As TB
said, the physics system will give you huge potential for traps, and
with the high res textures and shader effects, even quite simple
brushwork can look nice if kept clean and lighting is done effectively.

So yeah, I reckon you should chalk this one down to experience, and take some of the ideas on to a new map for HL2.

ReNo said:
Just thought I'd chirp in with my input on the HL1/HL2 topic. Personally I'd say build it from scratch in HL2. You've been given valuable feedback here from Tracer, and if you take it on board from the start of a new level I think it will turn out much better than this one, even if you went back and added detail to the whole map. As TB said, the physics system will give you huge potential for traps, and with the high res textures and shader effects, even quite simple brushwork can look nice if kept clean and lighting is done effectively.

So yeah, I reckon you should chalk this one down to experience, and take some of the ideas on to a new map for HL2.

What he said. The only problem you might run into with HL2 is the probable lack of good textures right from the get go. (common Cass\Dr.B\Kornflakes!)

Tracer Bullet said:
That took me about an hour to put together, including finding the textures on wadfather etc.

Sorry about going off topic, but I haven't been able to get on Wadfather for over a month. Did it move somewhere else, because I either get a "can't find page" error, or when the Wadfather homepage does show up, I cant get past it. I really need some textures. :eek:

I had some issues with the page as well, but the old version of the site still seems to be working.

http://www.planethalflife.com/wadfather/index-old.htm

You the man! :biggrin:

Download for this map now available!........again...it is slightly better.....most of the changes have to do with the Church and beginning dungeon areas....I havent started working with dungeon 2 yet....actually....a little....but nothing totally noticable yet...but the beginning of the game areas should be noticeably better.

Still need to work on blockiness design...this update is mainly a detail update....check it out!

EDIT:

Shoot...I forgot to post the link to my zip.....but now I did...sorry!

I've played through this untill the 3rd valve now and although it has improved, it's still very... strange...

Some of the puzzles are now more obvious and logical, but some are
still pretty annoying. I like how you changed the first puzzle, getting
the sword, as it's now more logical and intuitive, though still it has
it's flaws that make it so unbelievable. The stairs were leading to...
nowhere... ok, they got you inside that tube, but that's probably not
what they would be built for in real life. Some things aren't logically
correct in your map, wich hinders your level's believability. Also the
fact that I could see the roof trough the sky from that part made the
level itself look less believable.

At the second valve, there was a block sliding towards you, right? It
moved trough two torch holders... a little thing you should mind next
time. At that puzzle, I wasn't all too pleased... after getting over
those stones, having died multiple times, I found out I could as well
have stayed behind since the only thing i had to do was shooting the
button. I didn't found a way over that block too, so I had to noclip...
making puzzles hard is ok, but making them nearly impossible is another.

The third valve is my least favorite, as I really see no reason why to
release a whole pack of enemies behind my back when I'm already falling
into the lava. I still haven't exactly figured out how you planned the
player to get trough that part, as I needed to get to that button but
the floor fell down, and trying to get there while standing on those
rotating platforms seems pretty much impossible too.

Make sure your traps and puzzles are possible to seize, otherwise you won't entertain the player.

The architecture is at most spots still unlogic, not really
representing a realistic environment. Those hollow tubes for example
were meant to be pillars, but the way you represented them totally
defeated their function, as they easily crumbled by your push. Why
hadn't the building collapsed yet then?

I'd really want to advise you to look at reference picture before
starting on a map. They can really help you create a believable world.
You can fix some things in this map-pack, but to get it good would mean
a total redesign and recreation.

I think this article could be helpfull:

Common sense - Dave Johnston

EDIT: I may sound very harsh but I'm mostly stressing the negative
parts of your map. Try not to see it as a discouragement... :smile:

Hello folks.....Dungeon Death SP mod is now complete......complete enough......give it a look see....it is for HL1 but I spent quite some time to make it look decent and fun to play with some difficult challenges....I may make a sequel to it for HL2 if people like it......but please do comment and rate the map if you like/hate it...all critiques still welcome!

Thanks for all the help you guys gave me for this map!!! :smile:

peace

I really like the idea, and some pieces of the map look really good, but others ... texture and lighting-wise something's wrong.

Good, despite some of the puzzles being needlessly hard. I think the jumping puzzles need to be tweaked a bit, and some things should be made a bit more obvious... other than that, nice. The brushwork in the church is pretty good.

Structure: -------------4/10
texturing/lighting: ----7/10
effects: ----------------8/10
overall gameplay: ----5/10