DM_BocaBurgers

DM_BocaBurgers Beta 1.5
A Turkeyburgers Remake.

[url=http://files.filefront.com/DM_BocaBurgers_Beta_15/;3944582;;/fileinfo.html]<B>Download It! [/url]
Mirror 1 </B>http://www.savefile.com/filehost/files.php?fid=3165033

Major Problems:

• Need 3d Skybox Outside of Window
• Finish Unpopular Science Magazine
• Need to make more book covers

Roadmap:
Finish Beta 1 series: Fix major bugs and gameplay
Release Beta 2 series: Finished content, Optimization and polishing.
Release Final (Early August)

Known Glitches:
Jumping into Red Teleport from the top of Bookcase results in self telefrag.
SLAMs are easy to abuse at teleport points, need to be removed.
Lighting could use some attention.
Hole in ceiling above computer.
Shadows "leak" through some shelves.
Some models are rocket but not bullet proof (COUCH!).
It is possible to trigger teleport effect, without actually teleporting.

What I would like:
Critiques, go ahead be vicious, the more you find the more I can fix.
System Specs and performance impressions.
Online testing to check for abnormally high lag.
Testing Telefrag (Kind of hard to do by myself).
Ideas.
Impressions.
Solutions.

Screenshots:
Screenshot 1
Screenshot 2
Screenshot 3
Screenshot 4
Screenshot 5
Screenshot 6

Thank you for your time, and PLEASE critique the hell out of it.

Looks great from the screenshots particularly for a first map! Seems
that rats maps are finally coming into their own :smile: I'll take a run
around in a few days (probably monday) as I've a bit of a busy weekend.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Watch those screens.. 150k max.

I will check this thing over later. I hated Turkeyburgers. Not because it was a poor map, but because of its lack of frame rates on my old machine. Perhaps you did better. Perhaps the HL2 engine wouldn't let you fail.

I will let you know.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Haha! Well then you might want to play the old version with your new system :wink: I still do. I get about the same framerate on my system as I do in DM_Powerstation in the open area. That is to say, fairly low.

With an:
Athlon 2600, 512 MB of RAM, a Radeon 9500 on Windows XP @ 1280x768 (Widescreen monitor) 4x AA and 16x AF I get around 35 FPS when looking across the room. It'll drop down to 30 if I'm hunkered in a corner looking diametrically across all the geometry at once.

I would really appreciate people posting their framerates and settings so that I can try to get a feel for performance on a variety of machines, thanks.

Map plays fine framrate wise, but I found so many glitches it was painful.

Clips, teleporter glitches and overlapped solids galore.

Weapon placement seems fine..

6/10 in its current form.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

When you say teleporter glitches I assume you mean the way it bumps you around? This is a problem I still can't find a GOOD solution to, maybe you'll have a fresh perspective. Half Life 2 carries your momentum through the teleporter... so if you were running at 10units per second 'west' when you exit the teleporter you continue to move 10 unites per second west. The only way I could figure out to fix it was to put up an invisible wall on spawn for you to bounce off of that is turned off when your feet hit the floor. Is there anyway to Negate that momentum?

I'm not sure what you mean by clips, could you elaborate?

Specific glitches would be really appreciated so I can fix them.

"Clipping" is basically what people mean by collision detection. When
you run around the level you sometimes get snagged on things or don't
move as smoothly as could be desired. By using clip brushes - brushes
that are invisible and allow bullets to pass through, but block player
movement - its possible to make the players move around the level
smoother. Good uses of them are placing them on little details that
might catch the player as they run past, so if you build a smooth clip
brush around it they will simply slide on past. On the other hand, bad
use of them can make the player feel restricted, as there isn't
anything there for them to see, yet they are blocked. I don't know what
Orph is referring to by saying "clips", but something related to player
movement around the level no doubt.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

I didn't realize this was unfinished. So many assholes show up with completed works that I failed to look. My apologies.

Teleporter glitch= My son and I fragged this map. At least one of the teleporters sticks in the "ON" position. With that I mean, we both ported in, no telefrag occurred but the effect stayed on. The glowy dusty thing you have set up on teleport. It remained solid and was impassable from any direction. Also, my son (who fragged me cause I was stuck atop him) was also frozen in place and had to frag himself.

Clips,= hangs,catches that snag onto your player as you walk/run about. Some are unavoidable, some can be fixed with the clip brush.

I can do a full critique upon request.

[edit] I however will not do so until the screenshots are optimized.

[edit#2] remove download link #1 and #3.

#1 shows a serious lack of courtesy for anyone by offering an unzipped file.
#3 being your private FTP.. Well its your bandwidth, but people will use it just to be evil. Especially if you suggest them NOT to.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

#*$&#(# Teleporters, those things have caused me absolutely no end of pain.

I fixed another overlapping brush, apperantly in the process of making the mouse, I duplicated the table surface instead of a rope entity. Just the act of fixing problems creates new problems :smile: I can see where valve was coming from when they said "Looking at the number of bugs we find and fix every day..." You definitely can't just create a static list.

I'm open to sudgestions on how to make the teleporters telefrag, It would seem that Valve just made an arbitrary decision in Half Life 2 to completely ignore all Teleporter development, their implementation is pathetic at best.

Keep it coming, I'll compress the big pics.

[Edit] I have never released a map before, I thought people might be afraid of virii, I take it that's not the case.

[Edit #2] All images are now compressed.

[Edit #3] Thanks for the clipping tip, I can see where that would be really useful, I'm going through and clipping like crazy, never even crossed my mind to do that before. If there is a highly offensive spot that really needs a clip brush let me know.

Do not over compress the screens, no one will bitch much if they are 80-150K.. You are losing clarity.

I will get on a critique soon.

<DIV class=abouttext>[Edit]</B></DIV>

My machine specs include:

AMD 3500+ @ 2.2 ghz
Radeon 9800 pro 256 meg.
512m pc3200 ram

BocaBurgers Critique

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Wow, Thank you, that was reallly helpful.

Yeah 3d Skybox and More books are "In the mail" I should have those done next week, but they weren't really important to gameplay.

Only thing you got wrong was, it was a shotgun under the couch that you have to crawl to, not a grenade. From my experience, sometimes you can be pretty desperate on the ground and need something to get back in the fight, it is essentially the closest safest weapon. Do you still feel I should put something of greater worth there?

I added a s**t load of clips, I might have gone overboard... I tend to do that, but it's as smooth as a newborn's ass, so at least that shouldn't be a problem anymore.

My internal thought process was to make the lights bright enough to give cover to people trying to take out snipers, that's why you do user testing. I'm compiling the culmination of all of these fixes here in half an hour.

Book covers are a part of the Fair Use act... right? dials lawyer

[Edit] Well it took me 3 hours but I got telefragging MOSTLY implemented. If you jump into the red teleporter from the top of the bookshelf... You also get telefragged.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting im.thatoneguy</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Wow, Thank you, that was reallly helpful.

.

</DIV></DIV>

Not one of my best. I do not feel to well today and I am a bit off my stride. My hopes are that some of our better critique writers will take up my slack. We have many members far better than I.

My appologies...

[edit] you should point that other forum back to this thread, or post the link to any critiques you receive at least. Perhaps you can get them to do one for you as well, if they know exactly what you want "from" them.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Do you mean Interlopers? Or are you saying there is another forum on Snark I should post this on.

Either way, no more critiques until this new build finishes uploading. Lol I wouldn't mind puting that one behind me and moving on. I'm still just amazed how poorly Half Life's Teleportation system is implemented... it's really quite pathetic, almost like they didn't actually intend anyone to use it.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting im.thatoneguy</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I'm still just amazed how poorly Half Life's Teleportation system is implemented... it's really quite pathetic, almost like they didn't actually intend anyone to use it.</DIV></DIV>

i heard that valve had actually managed to code wormholes into the physics engine, but it worked so well that most of the source code for the game disappeared down one of them and ended up on some poor guys comp. valve covered up their incompetance by creating a conspiracy to blame him for everything they could. the teleporters that shipped with the game were only thrown together from old bits of tf2 code that didn't work very well.

[/derailment]

---

i eat paint

im.thatoneguy said:
Do you mean Interlopers?

The one mentioned in the profile.
As to the teleporters, search the editing forums and/or post a question. Do not use this thread to solve your riddles.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Sorry I was just mubleing to my self... through a keyboard.... Yeah that's it...

Anyway, Thank you again for the critique Orpheus, I think I got everything that wouldn't take an entire weekend to do integrated. I spiffied up the description so that it was actually readable and took some new screenshots so they are actually reflecting the state of the map. I didn't intend to release a 1.5, but your critique had more than enough things to warrant a new compile. No reason to keep rolling in the same mud.

Download the New Version (Screens updated on map's page and at root message):

BocaBurgers Beta 1.5

Keep your updated screens on the latest reply. No one will bother going backward to page #1 unless you are VERY clear that they need to.

and.

This has been bugging me for 2 days but...

"Where's the f**king door?"

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

LOL I Know... I know... I admit it. There is no door. The secret is out!

In the original there was no window either, It was like Rats: Prison. I've been more than tempted to put a door where the unpopular science picture is, although if I decided to go realworld, I would also need room for people's legs by the couch, space for the person to sit at the computer desk, enough room for a person to walk from the couch to the computer without stepping over the table... The list could go on and on and on. I just sort of said to hell with it, nobody will ever, ever live in this room. Or they could crawl in through the window.

OK so Orpheus says to make this clear, so here it goes.

THIS FORUM IS FOR DISCUSSION ONLY! IF YOU WANT TO DOWNLOAD THE LATEST VERSION, SEE THE LATEST SCREENS, READ THE LATEST BUG LIST. GO TO THE MAP'S PAGE, OR READ THE ROOT MESSAGE, AS I WILL BE UPDATING IT, NOT REPOSTING EVERY TIME I PATCH.

Sorry, used my outdoor voice there for a second. Won't happen again, unless I need to make something else clear.

whispers

This guy has been making me giggle since he arrived. /methinks he will fit in nicely.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Caution: This person "sounds" like a player, NOT a mapper.. Although he has some good ideas, I would take his overall outlook with a grain of salt.. Players do NOT make good maps. Use your own judgment.. It is your map after all, but i have a lot of experience with my claim. "PLAYERS SUCK AT MAP MAKING"

Quoted from Interlopers Forum

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Alright, just hada walk through your map, and I've got to say I'm very impressed. But, as you said you wanted us to bitch and whine, let the bitching commence.

1. Some things seem to me using odd materials. Why, when I shoot those cups, or the M&Ms, do they seem to be made of wood? </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext><SPAN class=postbody>Yup, I noticed wierd things too, but nothing noteworthy.</SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=postbody>
<DIV class=quotetext>
2. the trigger for the teleport sound doesn't seem to overlap exactly with the teleporter, so I sometimes walk next to the teleporter and hear the sound without being teleported. </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>News to me, but quite possible. I would check into it.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

3. More physical objects! I know its an MP map, and so you need to consider network overheads etc, but please let me knock over some of those books! Also, those are the densest M&Ms I've seen in my life. I'd love to see my rocket/grenade send those things flying, as opposed to just making them roll around a bit. </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>NO!, if you could make the M&M's tossable, that would be great but, this map is already stressing things I would not chance it.

4. I can get stuck. There's a little rule/guideline in game design that says a perfect player should be able to complete a game to 100% without losing any life. Maybe you could do well to try and apply that here. The teleporter that takes me to the second top shelf of the bookshelf (the one with the 2 crates of rocket ammo behind the books), seems, as far as I can tell, to bring me to a point where, unless I jump/fall off and take the damage that brings, I can't get out of. Am I missing something? is there a way to get off that shelf without falling all the way to the coffee table or the floor? </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I found no locations that you teleported to that were deadend's..

5. In some places, scale affects playability. I found it -very- hard to jump up onto books. For example, I couldn't get up that stack of books that the chair is leaning on, as much as I tried. Also, it took me 6 or 7 shots to jump up onto the copy of The Simulacra that allows me to run along the top of the corkboard (I then tried to jump from the book onto the brick that pokes out from the wall and promptly missed and fell all the way to the floor). If I have that much trouble doing it as the only person playing, imagine if I try it on the run, while someone's firing crossbow bolts at me. Could get very frustrating. </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Crouch jumping, although annoying in a multiplayer map, is not unheard of.. If you could build ramps out of a few clip brushes that would be great, but not a necessity.

6. Am I supposed to be able to run up that chair onto the desk? It occured to me that, possibly because of the above complaint, the connectivity of the level isn't great. It seem really difficult to get between certain places. </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>For the most part, connectivity is fine, its "flow" thats hindered. No one wants to crouch while being chaced in a frag..

7. Why shotgun ammo on top of the bookshelf? especially if there's no shotgun around. I don't get it. The top of the bookshelf would strike me as the perfect sniper spot, yet I only get health and ammo for my shotgun (aka the least accurate long-range weapon) for getting up there. </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Not only NO, but HELL NO!.. never cater to snipers.. Place the weapon so that the sniper needs to go get it. Preferably as far away from the camping spot as possible.

8. Getting into the drawer with the CDs and teleporter was hard. I had to, like, crouch down and jump to get in there from the ladder from the floor. </DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Getting into the drawer is as easy as walking up the chair leg and hopping across.. Easy as pie.

Anyway, that's mostly it. I'm gonna keep an eye out for any servers running this map, as I'd love to try it out with other players. Congrats on a great map.</DIV>

</DIV>

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

I think some of the best advice I have ever heard on map making game from a web design book called "Don't make me think." I highly advise reading it. It's less about web design per say as about human interface, and that's all a game really is.

In his chapter about usability testing he made it very clear to take what your users say with a grain of salt. "One person will want it orange, another will hate orange and want blue." His sudgestion was to "Grade on a curve". To take what they're saying and extract the core issues if they're a new user and ampligy those, leaving the rest of the chaff behind.

He did have good points. You can read my reply on that same forum, the teleporter issue, I seriously never expected somebody to actually discover this glitch inherent in the system. I use it for bug testing so that I know if I inch towards it I can set off specific triggers without setting off others.

But yeah, definetely a user, not a creator. Most of his complaints were intentional. The 'fastest' way I always made the most difficult, if it was an optional route. If you're on the floor there are two non jump necessary routes to the red teleport, and there's the blue teleport. The sniper rifle is difficult to get to, it shouldn't be a breeze.

I must say the most helpful thing in making this map is how much I Played it before I ever started making it. I've been able to fine tune things such as weapon placement, becaues I know exactly what I'm doing and what I'm wanting when I'm in a specific area. It's all about that "Don't make me think." Great book I highly recommend. It's also a fun book, not just a textbook.

P.S. On the drawer comment he was referring to the ladder, which was in version 1.0 mostly broken.

[Edit] Added new "known glitches".

[b][color=limegreen]NOTE: I have a dedicated server running on my Cable internet connection. Go ahead and give it a try:
67.160.22.157:27015[/b][/color]

This map looks really sharp, I'll have a quick run in it tuesday.

---

:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

Looks good! How does everyone enlarge the models like that?
Let me guess, they open the model in model viewer and enlarge it, save it as a new model and voila...

Or is it something simple like properties :O

Please do tell!

ARG NOOOOoooooo! WASTED!

I was so looking forward to this map, but I hate to be the bad guy and say I was deeply dissapointed :-/ I'll list the problems I remeber-

• Layout was poor, I found for a rats map that I couldn't get around very well. Look at other rats maps to see how you get around in them.
• You couldn't get above the lights, or at least I couldn't find a way.
• The chargers are poorly placed.
• You shouldn't need teleporters to get around.
• The M&M's are too big.
• Theres no PC, just a keyboard and monitor (which don't have cables) and a mouse (which does).
• The brick texture is scaled too small. They should be at least double the size.
• The sofa and table are almost useless. You said about how there wasn't enough room- move the sofa back to the wall, then make another hole in the wall (a mouse hole) to give more routes to the sofa.
• Theres no clutter on the table, or a packet for the M&M's.
• The glasses aren't solid for weapons...
• Theres poor circulation on the bookshelves.
• No interactivity... You should be able to do something in a rats map.

Thats all I can remember now. If you want I can roam around the level with you and show you problems. Also one thing I'm intruiged with- how did you make all the models so big? Are they included in the BSP?

---

-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

You could place the models in a 3D skybox, and set the skybox scale to however much larger you want the models to be scaled.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Most you could shoot right through Myrk.. I do not think they were real models.

and:



If you couldn't see this, perhaps you imagined the rest as well. :wink:

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Oh yer! There was a PC, but no wires coming from it, that was probably what I was thinking. I didn't really remember every problem. But my points should make the level much better if they are all fixed.

---

-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Myrk- said:
Oh yer! There was a PC, but no wires coming from it, that was probably what I was thinking. I didn't really remember every problem. But my points should make the level much better if they are all fixed.

whispers

Its his 1st map Myrk.. Remember yours? I remember mine.

Look at it this way, at least he is receptive. I have some asshole in the PM's being evil about his because I told him his was awful and needed worked on. So far he has told me almost verbatim what Doc Rock used to say.. Its almost as if they went to the same classes. :rolleyes:

When will these guys learn, PLAYERS MAKE POOR MAPPERS!

Fun,fun,fun.. I am so damned sick of that word.

/ ranting.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Well with some help this 1st map will be an amazing map. I don't believe much in the ranting on "Good job! Amazing 1st map! Horay!" kinda stuff. This map shows potential, so why waste it with cynical advice? Best to show him his errors so he makes it better!

---

-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Myrk- said:
Best to show him his errors so he makes it better!

And, whom did you learn that from? Hmm? :razz:

Nevermind, you know full well what I meant. I was just pokin fun.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Yer :razz: I just think this map could be so much more, he obviously has the skills to do stuff, he just needs to correct a lot, and find some precidents to work from.

/me pets Orph

---

-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Myrk-</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Yer :razz: I just think this map could be so much more, he obviously has the skills to do stuff, he just needs to correct a lot, and find some precidents to work from.

/me pets Orph

</DIV></DIV>
Then I suggest that you put your money where your mouth is then. Read my critique, and enhance it to suit your wants and desires. I could frag this as is, I could frag it more if it were as you said. Make it so I want to frag it more. :smile:

[edit] Link to Critique

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Wow, this map looks spactacular.

First impression suggestion:

On the shot
http://vaporware.w3dzine.net/turkeyburgers/bocaburgers15--01.jpg make
the 'cushion' on the chair into a displacement map. It won't suck
up much at all on graphics, and it'll add some 3d dimension to the part
that's supposed to be the cushion.

I'll download it and snoop around...

[Myrk:]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blindly rejecting what you're saying, there just is usually more than meets the eye.

I did work to improve layout a bit, but I am trying to stick as close to the original as possible. Remember this is a remake, I don't want to create something completely unrelated. Also once you know what you're doing, I can get to any point in the map in under 30 seconds. I have a "Lap" where I make a full loop around the roop in about 25 seconds.

Everyone asks to get above the lights. I did some play testing. It just generated stagnant camp fests in which the people on the lights didn't move and the people below tried to stay out view to avoid being shots. The one thing I have to fight on a map of my style is stagnation. The lights just created a race to see who could get there first.

I keep my eyes open for new charger station locations. Any thoughts on where you would like to see some?

Sorry again, it is turkey burgers, and actually I hate ladders so I would argue you shouldn't need ladders to navigate, but people have to move vertically somehow. Teleporters also do two things for the map, they mix up the action keeping it from from clumping in one place on the map and they speed things up considerably, again it goes back to being able to get just about anywhere in 30 seconds.

They should be exactly 12x scale like everything else. I tried to measure as much stuff as I could to be consistant. I'll double check.

Mouse was almost wireless :wink: I added the cord 20 seconds before compiling, it was a test to figure out a good wire system, fear not cables for everything else are on the way.

I'm really fighting texture resolution on this front. I'm trying not to stretch the textures as much as humanly possible while maintaining realism. The bricks are different sizes on every compile :wink: You'll probably see them a new size next time.

I already have a packet of M&Ms scanned in. It'll be in the next beta, I just didn't have time prior to this one to fully test it. As is junk on both tables.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "The table and sofa are useless". Could you be more specific.

All models are still quite buggy, I'm having trouble getting the Vphysics models to line up with the normal models, hence why none of them except for the M&Ms move. The glass especially is giving me lots of trouble. All of this is in the known bugs section I believe.

Circulation is something I should address. I'm open to sudgestions.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Myrk-</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Best to show him his errors so he makes it better!</DIV></DIV>

"And, whom did you learn that from? Hmm? :razz: "

Actually I believe that was in my first post verbatim :wink:

I have always believed that people are only willing to expend energy trying to help make things with potential better. At least in my experience, the longer my posts the more I usually care about the topic. Every critique is a learning experience. Besides it's up to me to decide what is and isn't relevant, not the player, so what's the harm in listening to them.

And finally, give me a list of Rats maps you think I should go do research on, I might have most of them and I'll go find the rest.
[Imbrifer:] The chair and couch were actually only intended to be temporary but then like alot of things they just grew on me. It is actually one of the valve models scaled (recompiled to scale for those curious). While I first intended to do brushwork for all largescale objects such as the couch and chair, I quickly discovered that Hammer's UVW editor is barely worthy of such a name. Texture alignment is far too difficult so models are the only option in my view for high poly systems. However that being said I would like to load up the couch and increase it's poly count, and give it a real collision model (It's just invisible brushes right now). Keep your eyes open during Beta 2.

[critique]

I would also like to point out, that almost all of the small things on the first ciritque are fixed. Also please check the "Known bugs" before posting a critique for the sake of efficiency. Now critique away.

Due to the fact that I actually got a job doing 3d Visualization and am still taking a full load of classes, I am down to literally 1 - 2 hours of free time per week.

If anyone is interested in adopting and help raise a little Boca_Burger email me at gmail.com]im.thatoneguy@[REMOVE]gmail.com . I would like to return to it and keep working on it but I just don't have time in the near future.