Upgrading, woo woo!

finally upgrading mobo, cpu, gfx card, and ram

MSI K8N Neo4/SLI Socket 939 NVIDIA nForce4 SLI ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail 124
BFG Tech BFGR68256GTOCX Geforce 6800GT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail 309
CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB (2 x 512MB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model VS1GBKIT400 - Retail 89
AMD Athlon 64 3500+ Venice 1GHz FSB Socket 939 Processor Model ADA3500BPBOX - Retail 219

total: 741

comments, suggestions, reccommendations? $700s about all i can spend atm.

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Why did you have to get dad's permission?

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Why did you have to get dad's permission?

Probably because Dad has to pay for most of the upgrades.

But congratulations. It's a pretty good system. It's not
top of the line, but it's good enough to play any game currently out.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

for 939 motherboards stick to either dfi or asus.

maybe change the ram.. ocz is alot better then corsiar nowdays..

what psu? u forgot to say that.. i am guessing
this is a large upgrade.. + most 939 motherboards need a 24 pin
plug with the psu..

i will watch this closely as i build computers for my job, and try to give as much as i can

i build computers for my job

That's a pretty cool job. I build other people's computers for fun.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Nice.

About time someone put a list together on their own that was reasonably priced!

Only one suggestion! Change out that duel 512 pair for a 1 gb stick. Save memory slots and have a few extra cycles.

The nice thing about that board is that it's so scalable. Supports 64, FX51, FX53, FX55, FX57 (I think), and X2.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

On the topic of ram, when working to a budget, in my experience, its fairly safe to stick with generic ram (provided you run everything at stock speed). Its the same chips anyway, just packaged by another company. 2 512mb sticks are cheaper than a 1gb last time I checked, by all means go with branded uber fast gig sticks if you want, but youre already over budget.

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"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

woojay.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

Mm... good s**t! I'd recommend you'd rather get an GTX 7800, you have a perfect SLI for the future that way...

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HL2 tutorials 'n' stuff: http://madedog.pri.ee
217.159.236.34:27050 - CSS Server - Clean | koffer.ee

On the topic of ram, when working to a budget, in my experience, its fairly safe to stick with generic ram (provided you run everything at stock speed). Its the same chips anyway, just packaged by another company. 2 512mb sticks are cheaper than a 1gb last time I checked, by all means go with branded uber fast gig sticks if you want, but youre already over budget.

Yes.

Pretty much all you want to ensure is that there's a warranty. Most have lifetime warranties, so even if something happens, you get replacements (as long as it's not your fault, as with any warranty).

It's odd, about a month ago, Gig sticks were cheap ($70-$80). Now they're all over $90 (All USD). Right now the cheapest I found was $89.99 on zipzoomfly.com

Madedog, no, that'd be a bad idea. He can always get a 7800, because of the board. In all actuality, by the time he needs to upgrade the video card there will be far better cards. As I said, that's a nice board for future upgrades (at the moment)

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

i have to pay for it all, im 17 in high school. my dad is always making
me convince him about stuff like this... hl2, mp3 player, etc.

i would like a 7800, but does it really matter? whats the perf difference from a 6800gt at ultra speeds and a 7800, same price?

i know ill prolly need a new cpu fan, ill get a zalman. a nice zalman.

is dual-channel faster than a single stick?

zipzoomfly is the same price for the same config, cept the gfx card is
an MSI instead of a BFG. the bfg is $9 more, so its actually $9 more on
newegg. but im fine with that.

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

I would change the ram to Geil value, no other suggestions really seems good.

ahhhh, why? whats better about that?

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

I still trust premium RAMS. I got burnt on some cheap refurbished
RAMS once. They didn't even allow my computer to boot up.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

but corsair is good, to my knowledge, right?

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

Corsair is as good as anyone else (Although, far too many people think it's the best, which is rediculous, since it doesn't really matter). You're buying new parts anyway. I would actually suggest finding something cheaper if you can. For the most part the only difference is who put the ram card together, most all ram uses the same chips. As I said, as long as you've got a lifetime warranty: don't worry, you're set.

Refurbished? Satch, never buy refurbished parts and bitch, you have no right to bitch: it was refurbished!

Geil ram is more expensive duel channel ram (mostly). Not what you want at the moment. The other thing is, I haven't seen anything saying that 2 duel channel sticks of ram (lets say 1 GB each) are better then the exact same ram, but single channel with four slots filled. Because, if you use Duel channel you are limited to half of the boards slots. And the slots only support 1 GB each.

In your situation, if you still bought two 512 sticks (I really do recommend getting 1 gb stick, it's worth the extra, what? 99 cents) but they were duel channel, that's all the ram your computer could take with those sticks installed.

In any case it would limit you to 2GB of ram, maximum (Installing more disables duel channel mode ... in which case, what was the point?). The speed isn't going to make up for 2 GB of ram, it doesn't matter how much faster the memory access is it'll make virtual memory more mandatory, which is slower then both options because of the HDD accessing.

You have a good set up. A lot of people don't realize you're going for economy. If you want to go for the MSI video card you mentioned as opposed to the BFG, that'd be something you should look into. MSI stuff is packaged with a lot of stuff (games and such). BFG is really just too expensive, it started out as an economy "good stuff" brand ... then it got popular and now it's more expensive then some of the big boys ... for no reason. All the cards will pump out the same power, they're all the same chipset, for example, You should go for most bang for your buck. And between that MSI card and the BFG, I'd choose the MSI. As for your inquiry on the different between a 6800 Ultra and the 7800 (GTX I assume), there's a large difference, the 7800 is much more powerful. It may not be leaps and bounds in regards to GPU speed, but it's a completely new graphics card architecture with implementation of a lot of stuff that's up and coming (radiosity, for example), which are things the 6800 series doesn't support.

On top of that it has more video ram, which will always make things easier.

But, it's far too expensive for your system at the moment, a 6800 Ultra is a good choice, if you're not that enticed about maxing out every game that comes along your way, you may want to invest in a GT or something, but I don't know if they're much cheaper now.

You don't need a new CPU fan. The one that comes with the CPU will cool it as it needs. I thought I remember someone mentioning you "should" and that's just not true.

However! The video cards recently, much more when talking about an Ultra or 7800 or any of the equivalent ATi cards, require TONS of power. I think the power supply "recommendation" for SLi'd 7800s (from the manufacture) is 550W! That's a lot of power. So, be wary. I think the GT only needs maybe 400W That's still probably over compensating.

Note, I just noticed you ARE getting a GT! Sorry about that. :smile:

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Kingston Technologies has an unlimited Lifetime warranty. I don't know how good it is, but at work we used to send thier NIC's back all the timefor free, and they'd send us a new one back.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

well, im lookin here at 1gb GEIL stick, but all the 1gb sticks on
newegg have a CAS of 3. thats not cool. i saw some GEIL 1gb, dual
channel w/head spreaders. 2 bucks less than the corsair, but while the
CAS is 2.5, the timing is 2.5-4-4-8. would this be better than the
corsairs, and are they overclockable?

ive read several negative reviews of the MSI mobo just now... but i
think its still fine. with soundblaster 8-channel audio built in? meh.

and the BFG is overclocked to a core of 370, from 350, does that not
really make much of a difference? for $10, is that worth it? and since
its overclocked, id totally take it to ultra speeds and the warranty
should still be good. yeh?

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

No, overclocking anything voids the warranty if it damaged by overclocking. And honestly, almost never gives you enough performance boost. Come on ... 20 Mhz? that's not enough to warrant it (And the reason it doesn't come OC'd higher is because it will probably damage it).

I don't trust online reviews. They're all by the same people who think the CPU is responsible for all the speed of a system.

CAS timing of 3 isn't that bad. It depends though, seriously, because, if it says it goes 400Mhz, it'll go that speed (on the bus of course), the difference between a CAS of 2.5 and 3 is really ... nothing. If you want to get faster speeds in this regard I'd suggest, at some point, look for a faster HDD.

With duel channel ram, it's really iffy right now. Less versions work with less boards, for example. (It'll work with what you've got listed though) But, again, you will only be able to put in half the ram ... or the duel channel ram will only go on one channel (making go about half the speed ... as it would appear). So, if you plan on upgrading ... go cheaper right now, it'll cost less in the end.

It's your choice though.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

For RAM PNY is my personal favorite. I suggest getting that, it is usually cheaper than the kingston/corsair stuff.

Overclock for fun, not for saving money.

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http://maze5.net

Yes, to see how far you can push. But for harsh/normal usage ... it's a bad idea. Playing around with it is something else.

We all wonder how much farther our hardware can go! "Will that extra 100 Mhz really up my FPS?"

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Ill be upgrading my pc soon, not much mind, but des says that it is pretty decent quality for money

here are the specs

• AMD Sempron 3000+ Processor
• Gigabyte GA-K8VM800M motherboard.
• 512mb PC400 DDR Ram
• Tsunami ATX Case with 400w power supply

all for just $398! *(aus)

I have to pay for $300 tho...

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'Tonight, we dine in hell! I hear the buffet there is to DIE for' - Leonidas I

/threadjack block!

sempron is generally for mobile or servers, or home users, no? lower end?

what about that GEIL ram?

now its GEIL or CORSAIR. vote? do something?

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

No, Semprons can be used to replace Athlon XP. In fact, you really can't find XPs anymore, they're being phased out. Most XP boards support Sempron anyway. (Same socket)

I still say get cheaper ram, but if you insist on choosing between those two companies (not sure why you chose them, just because some people told you they were good?) choose the one that costs less.

Perhaps, you figure I don't know what I'm talking about or I'm being annoying by giving advise?

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

The Geil 1GB Dual-Channel got very good reviews, I would go with that. Has heat spreaders, too. Corsair Value Select is -budget- Corsair, so it's not like you are buying premium ram there anyway. TBH I have seen a bit of it coming back, too, defective :/

That boad has FOUR slots. I would get the 1GB Dual-Channel (512x2), since you'll still have two slots left to upgrade later on. Dual-Channel isn't much use gaming-wise atm, but that may change. Later on, you could get a 1GB or 2GB Dual-Channel kit to get up to 2 or 3 GB, so there's plenty of room to upgrade and still maintain a dual-channel setup. 2GB, tbh, is the most I see anyone practically needing in the near future. Also, Crono suggested that dual-channel limited you to two of the 4 slots. That simply isn't true. A board like this with four sockets can support two matched pairs of dual-channel dimms; you can buy one pair now, then get another pair later on.

6800GT is an amazing card, it cuts through any game out there now like it's nothing. If you can get a good price on the 7800GT, though, it might be worth it. The Ultra/GTX cards are pointless price/performance wise.

SLI is a waste of money. Much better off just upgrading your single video card more frequently. That way you also have cards with newer architecture. For example, just a few months ago people were spending over $1000+ on two 6800Ultras... which is a useless amount of horsepower since no game uses that... and now the 7800GTX is out for $600, and almost as good as the dual 6800's. SLI is for suckers. btw, the 7800 & 6800 cards all have 256 normally. A couple companies made 512mb versions, but the reviews on them were horrible and they cost way too much.

Get at least a 450watt power supply for this, and a decent brand like Antec, too. As someone else mentioned, you may need a 24-pin ATX power connector. Most new PSU's come with 24, but be sure. There 20-24pin adapters, which supposedly work okay, but I would only go that route if you are forced to reuse your current psu.

BFG video cards are slightly overclocked. But if you look at them, their cooling setup is a hell of a lot better than other brands. My EVGA 6800GT's cooling was horrible, no copper and a crappy little fan that was noisy as hell. I put an Arctic Cooling vga cooler on it, and not only was it quieter, it also ran about 8 degrees cooler lol.

Although based off the AthlonXP, not all newer Semprons are Socket A. Many of 754, and 939 versions will probably be out any time. So don't -assume- that any Sempron will work in any AthlonXP board. Most out now are actually 754's. The 754's also incorporate HyperTransport and some features of the Athlon64's, so the architecture of those chips may be changing quite a bit from the AthlonXP's at this point.

Chrono, I just corrected you on three different things so mayby he shouldn't be listening too closely to you? :wink:

No, actually, that board only has two Duel channel slots. At least that's how it's explained in it's documentation. Which is the only reason why I said that. I by no means think that's a standard or something like that.

There are 6800s that have up to 512Mb of ram: woopdy do. He gave an option between two video cards, so I gave a recommendation upon that taking that either isn't exuberantly priced. And I believe the one advantage I gave the 7800 was the newer abilities and not the speed.

I also never said "all semprons were Socket A", but it's very easy to get a Socket A version. Of course a different socket wouldn't work.

On a side note, it'd be more ... lucrative ... to have SLi for expansions that aren't a second video card, once they begin coming out. Not now, obviously, but, at some point in the near future.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Gotcha. Sorry if I seemed like I was being a dick :wink:

afaik, the SLI slots are both PCI-E 16x, which they are only using for video cards? The board should have some PCI-E 1x and/or 4x slots, which are to replace old PCI as generic expansion slots, but a non-SLI PCI-E board would have those, too.

No no. I'm talking about graphical expansions that take the load off for other applications, such as AGIEA's Physics cards. Except those aren't out yet. They said their main interface would be SLI with whatever video card (doubt it'd work with ATi, unless ATi made their cards cater to the SLi ... stuff, I'm not sure if that is an architecture type or not, because it IS a rather large change)

You didn't seem like a dick. You were very polite.

However, ish should check on that duel channel thing ... if I read the board's specs incorrectly, then the board would support as you're saying. However, I've found that almost all documentation is ... misleading in some places. Such as, it could say that 2-channel only works in the middle slots but actually work with all slots in 2 sets.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Ah, the physics cards. Those could be cool, though tbh I am hoping Nvidia & ATI just license the technology and include it as part of next-gen video cards. Otherwise I really doubt it would catch on, and if it did... you wanna have to buy a video card AND a physics card to game? Ugh.... :/

The specs there say there are four slots, 4GB max, and that it supports dual-channel. Generally that means there are two sets of slots, usually color-coded. So, you can have two pairs of dual-channel memory. One pair goes in, say, the green slots, and the other pair would go in the purple slots, or whatever colors that motherboard uses to distinguish them. Sometimes pairs are side-by-side, other times they are staggered like on his board:



Benchmarking suggests dual-channel isn't that useful for gaming right now, but it's supposed to be helpful in photoshop etc. when dealing with very large files. Since you have four slots to play with, I usually start people off with 1GB dual-channel. Best performance, and still plenty of room to upgrade later on.

I just want my Voodoo card back.....

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I just want my Voodoo card back.....

My Pentium II 400mhz still has its Voodoo 5500 in it, and runs just great.

I gotta dig out my old Banshee next time I get back to my parents...

Man, back when Half-life was still new, My voodoo5 made everything so pretty.....

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Yes, yes, I know about the duel channel processes in general. Once I actually get my hands on some of this hardware I'd be able to be more accurate more of the time. As it stands, I'm going on intuition based on what I know of how everything works already and some documentation here and there when I really am not informed completely.

Actually, AGIEA is an independent company (Not sure if that's what you meant). I know they'll probably make a version for whatever expansion ATi comes up with.

But, a separate processor is going to be very valuable. It's something you wouldn't want to pack onto a graphics card, honestly. Since, that would, not only limit the amount of information that both the graphics and the physics could take (since it's physically one interface) and just many other things

SLi is a really good idea though. And I think once the stuff that is new now becomes more dated, that'll show. Since, then, you'd be able to do a very small upgrade to almost double your video power (when it'll actually make a difference ... like with Unreal 3, for example) That or it can just be an expansion slot, which would be wonderful if it were adapted that way.

At least, that's the only reason I'd want SLi at all, so in a few years, when it is used by expansion cards, I wouldn't have to buy a new board, or anything like that. Not to mention, the PCI-E slots are on a faster bus :smile:

Speaking of Banshee cards ... I need to re-jack mine back from my dad. Sadly, it's PCI, since I had no AGP slot at the time, but it's a decent 3d card. That or I need to find a chipset fan to put on my slightly charred GeForce 2.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

In terms of bandwidth you might be fine, nothing uses what PCI-E offers right now anyway. But yeah, I'm not sure how well it would work out fitting all that stuff into one card. Graphics cards are huge, hot, and overloaded as it is.

Part of the problem I see is getting the physics cards into the market in enough quantity to get things moving. No way will they make a game that 'requires' one right off. And without all the players having a physics card, you can't really use it for things that influence gameplay. And that's the real test- will game developers use enhanced physics to enhance -gameplay-? So far Half-Life 2 is the only game I've seen where the physics engine is much more than a visual perk.

If they come out with cheap PCI or PCI-E 1x physics cards, and/or integrate basic physics processors into some of the nicer graphics cards, it might manage to work its way into our pcs, though...

SLI... would be much more sensible if you didn't need matched cards. And as for doubling your power, by the time you need to do that, you can get a card twice as powerful for the same amount of money anyway. Assuming your old card is still even in production, which is another potential problem.

due to the fact that its got future features stuff, and is a heck of alot better, im switching to a 7800GT by MSI. its 269 after a $30 rebate. sticking with the 3500 venice, and still deciding on teh RAM and mobo.

the main reason i was sticking with the mobo was the soundblaster live, but thats a crappy reason. i have 2 speakers. meh. looking at asus... is gigabyte good?

and for ram, still havnt decided between 1gb stick, or 2x512 in dual channel. im thinkin dual channel, cause, in a year when i want to upgrade again, i can just stick in another gig, or 2 gigs in dual channel, and have 2-3 gigs of ram anyway. that should be plenty. whos cheap? methinks corsair.

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

Right, but assuming the card is in production, it'd be cheaper to buy it again instead of upgrading to a more expensive brand new card. At least that's consensus.

About the AGEIA thing, maybe I should explain it better! People who're teaming up with AGEIA on their physics (Epic, Mythic, Sony, UbiSoft, Cryptic are some of the people teamed with this product) the physics card will be optional. It will still have code in the game for the physics, but it's own support. It's the same way a graphics card is set up, none of the graphics information is ON the graphics card, it's only processed and used there.

There are AGEIA (dubbed NovoDex Rocket) demos out right now, actually, that show the software equivalent of what this card will handle on it's own. Which is really cool. They have working friction, and pressure, I think. You should check it out. Once you see what they have in store, it might be more obvious as to why you would need a dedicated processor. They have a four "building" explosion that's all physics calculated ... it goes like .25 FPS on my computer

It uses a framework, I believe, that you'd need installed (I'm guessing). Kind of like DirectX type deal, or .NET ... or OGL for that matter.

http://www.ageia.com/

[EDIT]

No, actually corsair is rather expensive. The value stuff is suppose to be cheaper. Again, the reason I suggested a gig stick instead of 2 x 512 Mb is A) save space on the board so your maximum would be 4GB instead of 3.5 GB (give or take)

I have an MSI board, I like it. It's nice. It has the same features that you'd find on any ASUS board, without the bloated gimmicky features. Again, get something that's decently price and readily upgradable. Pretty much anything you get that has a warranty will work. I mean, it's not like there is a lot of retail-brand hardware out there that simply doesn't work.

I like MSI. I've had so many issues with ASUS, specifically speaking about their boards, I'm sure it's a little different now. But I still know people who have their boards and are just fed up with them.

One thing that might be a deciding factor is the support on their website! It's very useful.

OH! One thing, that's (as far as I know) unique on the MSI that can be useful in times of "difficulties", if they occur at all, is the Diagnostic Lights.

ASUS has that speed optimizer thing, or something. It's a fancy word for automatic overclocking ability. Which most all boards have now.

Um. Yeah, that's about it. Most of what you'll hear is personal preference. So, it's really up to you. I would suggest going by your wallet if you want to keep it under $700. (as you said)

One more thing ... where the hell did you find a 7800 for $269??

I'd be shell out for that! I really don't want to wait longer. And as I already had my aims on the 6800 series, it's all good.

As for the ram ... seriously, there's been enough discussion. Just read what we've been throwing back and forth (disregard my 2GB limit remark) and judge for your self. Jinx is right though. It will only help in intensive applications like photo and film editing, as opposed to games. Since they work a little differently.

If you like, you might want to look up some introductory articles on some of the topics, just to get a better understanding of "why". Not sure where, but look up chipsets (which, hopefully will lead to explanations of how it all works together). It should explain HDD accessing ... why you want to avoid it and many other things. :smile:

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

thats pretty snazzy. really snazzy.

and sli is totally good; two years and you pop in a new one, double perf. g2g.

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

... If you can find the exact same card ... that's the only "gotcha" part. (I think otherwise, though, a wrapper of some sort would just slow it down too much, but I think there'd have to be some tests to check that out. I can see it now, there'd be a seperate chipset for the graphics portion, in which case ... it would work, but be slow, but be fast with compatable stuff)

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

it is done.

my dad and i just reviewed the parts to the new system on newegg and bought it. should be here in a few days. who wants to hear about it when its together :wink: ??

specs are as follows:

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<TD class=cartChartEven align=right width=100>$90.50</B></TD></TR></TABLE>

<DIV class=contInf>
<TABLE id=cartPriceF cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=1>

<TR class=cartChartEmp vAlign=top>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD class=lblB align=right>Subtotal:</TD>
<TD class=priceR align=right width=100>$932.48</TD></TR>
<TR class=cartChartEmp vAlign=top>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD class=lblB align=right> Tax:</TD>
<TD align=right width=100>$0.00</TD></TR>
<TR class=cartChartEmp vAlign=top>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD class=lblB align=right>Shipping:</TD>
<TD align=right width=100>$35.31</TD></TR>
<TR vAlign=center height=40>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: 0px"> </TD>
<TD class=lblNote align=right width=250>Grand Total:</TD>
<TD align=right width=100>$967.79</TD></TR></TABLE></DIV>

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www.nysteo.com

If animals weren't meant to be eaten, then they wouldn't be so delicious and easy to catch!

Face it: if crime didn't pay, there would be very few criminals.

man you are so lucky.

wihtout a job at the moment it would take me an unreasonably long time to save up for an upgrade which i desperately need.

im trying for a new graphics card but i dont know how long it will take plus my parents will pay NOTHING.

/i feel dpressed.

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Bullet Control: $5000 for a bullet.
"I would blow your f**king head off! ...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving some money... then you a dead man!"