Virtual violence or virtually violent?

Virtual violence or virtually violent?

Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by satchmo on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 4:51pm
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Is it just a game?

Virtual violence has parents
and politicians worried about real-world aggression. The science behind
those fears hasn't made it to the next level.



By Melissa Healy

Times Staff Writer

September 12, 2005

If the makers of the nation's most popular video and computer games
were to square off with politicians in a virtual world, the exchange of
fire would be furious, the escape maneuvers audacious and the screen,
in the end, a jumble of photorealistic carnage.

Violent games breed violent behavior, charges a growing group of
lawmakers, who have called for tighter government controls in the
marketing and sale of violent games. But the software entertainment
industry, its annual $28 billion in sales paced by a nation's thirst
for action games, is shooting back. There is no proven link between
game violence and violent behavior, say industry leaders, only a link
between politicians and pandering to the public's fears.

Add an arsenal of fantasy weapons and immersive sound effects and
graphics, and it's the kind of exchange that could leave players
pumping their fists and ready to reload. But the real-life battle is
leaving many parents and researchers bewildered, divided and ready to
unload.

Los Angeles father and screenwriter Gregg Temkin calls it his
"constant conflict" ? this wavering between fear and complacency about
violence in video games. Temkin's 14-year-old son, Josh, plays a slew
of nonviolent games, but he also likes to get together with friends and
play the fantasy-violence game "Halo 2" and the graphically violent
"Grand Theft Auto."

Temkin says he has read plenty about these games' purported
effects ? both good and bad ? and finds that the experts are as
confused as he is. He believes that playing them "desensitizes you" to
real violence. "But I don't know if I've got a leg to stand on or not.
And I'm not sure that if it does happen, that's a bad thing," he adds.

Josh and his friends have heard some of the furor over video game
violence. He says it makes playing "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" more
fun to know that adults are wringing their hands over it.

First-person shooter games don't make him angrier, Josh says, and
he never "feels like" the shooter, just like a kid controlling an image
on a screen. But he suspects that some kids he's played with are not
quite so detached.

Research published in recent months hasn't helped clarify the
risks, or benefits, of these games. In mid-August, members of the
American Psychological Assn. adopted a resolution calling for less
violence in video and computer games sold to children. Reviewing 20
years of studies on the subject, psychologist Kevin M. Kieffer told
fellow mental health professionals during the meeting that playing
violent video games does, on balance, make children more aggressive and
less prone to helping behaviors.

"There really isn't any room for doubt that aggressive game
playing leads to aggressive behaviors," says Iowa State University
psychologist Craig A. Anderson, one of the pioneers of research in the
area and a guiding force behind the association's resolution. "The
naysayers don't have a leg to stand on."

But the association's action came just weeks after University of
Illinois researcher Dmitri Williams, in a study of 213 players of a
violent online game called "Asheron's Call 2," concluded that a month
of steady, intensive play did not increase participants'
aggressiveness. His study did not focus on children, but included some
players as young as 14.

Williams suggests that members of the American Psychological Assn. have gotten ahead of their research.

"I don't think the data to date warrant the strength of their
claims," he says. "I don't think they're going to be proven wrong
long-term, but I don't think they've proven their case yet." Williams
adds that his research findings have made him "persona non grata in
some quarters, champion of truth in others."

His study, published in the June issue of Communications
Monographs, has provided defensive firepower to the entertainment
software industry at a time when it has come under siege. The Federal
Trade Commission this fall is to launch an investigation into the
ratings system for video games ? particularly the rating that made the
sex- and violence-laden "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas" available to
most teens.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), who called for the FTC
study, is set in the coming weeks to propose legislation to tighten
enforcement of video game ratings. And a group of Democratic and
Republican senators has proposed that the National Institutes of Health
oversee a comprehensive, $90-million study on the effect of violent
media, including video games, on children's development

In recent years, Democratic politicians such as Clinton, Sen.
Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut and Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich have
joined longtime Republican critics like Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas
and Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania in taking the software industry to
task. The broadsides against video game violence have escalated in
recent months, after a watchdog group found an Internet "patch" that
can add explicit sex scenes to "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas." In
March, Clinton told a forum in Washington, D.C., that the game
"encourages violent imagination and activities and it scares parents."

The digital defensive

The video game makers aren't taking such claims lying down. The
Entertainment Software Assn. has dismissed the American Psychological
Assn.'s resolution as the preordained conclusion of a group whose
collective mind has long been made up. And it has rebuked Clinton and
other politicians for playing politics with science.

"I think she's got genuine concerns, and I respect that," says
Douglas Lowenstein, president of the industry group. "I think at the
same time, among many Democrats, they believe this is a good way to
identify with values voters. I don't personally think that's a good
read [of the electorate], and I think there are better ways to do that."

Lowenstein cited efforts in three states ? Washington, Indiana and
Illinois ? in which politicians and activists have adopted measures
aimed at restricting children's access to violent video games, all on
the argument that they inspire violent behavior. In Washington and in
Indiana, those measures have been struck down as unconstitutional.

A new Illinois law, to go into effect in January, would prohibit
the sale, distribution, rental or availability of video games rated
"Mature" to children younger than 18. The law, which the gaming
industry is challenging in courts, would levy misdemeanor charges
against retail or rental establishments that allow minors access to
games rated M.

Lowenstein and others point to a range of studies that have found
no significant relationship between playing violent video games and
increased aggressiveness.

In 2001, the U.S. surgeon general concluded there was
"insufficient evidence to suggest that video games cause long-term
aggressive behavior." And in April 2004, the Journal of the American
Medical Assn., summarizing research in the field, found consensus
"lacking" on whether violent video game play fuels violent behavior in
kids.

"If video games do increase violent tendencies outside the
laboratory, the explosion of gaming over the past decade would suggest
a parallel trend in youth violence," wrote author Brian Vastag.
"Instead, youth violence has been decreasing."

At the same time, a maturing generation of gamers (and parents)
has become more vocal in defense of the action video games with which
they have grown up.

Steven Johnson, author of "Everything Bad Is Good for You: How
Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter," has argued that
today's action video games can help players learn to prioritize,
improve their hand-eye coordination and teach them how to organize
virtual resources and teams to pursue a shared goal. Studies conducted
on military recruits and surgeons have supported some of those claims.

Small changes

Many of those who have studied video games' effects longest say
that people who deny any link between game violence and real-life
violence are setting the bar of proof a bit too high.

The "naysayers," as Anderson calls them, fail to look at video
games not as a single cause but as a contributor to violent behavior,
say many mental health researchers. They point out that children and
adults who play violent video games have varying risks for ? or
predispositions toward ? aggressive actions. Although some people might
play violent video games with little risk of acting out, some research
suggests that for those with a genetic or temperamental inclination
toward aggressiveness, violent game playing may tip a person toward
violent behavior.

Finally, critics of violent video games caution that if large
populations (or a whole generation of children) continue to rack up
heavy lifetime exposure to video game violence, even a small change in
their attitudes might add up to a significant societal shift ? a less
friendly schoolyard today, or a more ruthless national culture later on.

Dr. Jeanne Funk, a psychologist at University of Toledo in Ohio,
has measured exposure to violent video game play in young children for
most of the last decade. Her research has found that, in groups of
children between first and fifth grade, those with the highest past
exposure to violent video game play are significantly more likely to
condone aggressive acts and less likely to express empathy.

"It's not just that someone is going to go out and shoot up a
school," Funk says. "It could be a person that's less likely to donate
to victims of Hurricane Katrina, or less likely to comfort a friend
who's upset."

At Indiana University School of Medicine, psychologist William
Kronenberger has teamed with radiologists to look at the brain activity
of children playing violent video g
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crono on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 8:12pm
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I didn't read all that, but I did a report on the subject a few years ago and everything I found said they can't find a connection between violent behavior and violent video games.

I'm sure there's some correlation in what the act resembles, but what actually allowed that person to be "okay" with committing that action has nothing to do with a video game.

It's more or less a pop-topic by politicians and lazy parents. Everyone wants to blame their child's actions on someone other then themselves.

When I had my computer ethics course, the instructor asked if it was the developers responsibility to censor their material in their games. I argued, no, since there is a rating system. It surely isn't the developers fault that individuals are ignorant of that system. It would help as well if stores and game shops make it very evident that you need to understand the content of the game.

It also stems from the last few generations (not this one, and not so much the one before it) think of video games, comics, even certain films as childish, thus they assume their content matter is the same. Which, any person that has a brain instead of cat vomit in their head will understand this on their own.

It's also makes you question why the US is the only country getting their panties in a knot specifically about "video game violence".
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 8:15pm
Posted 2005-09-12 8:15pm
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I don't have the time to read through that article right now, and while
usually I would refrain from posting without reading.... from personal
experience I would say that violet movies have had a more of a damaging
effect on my psyche than violent videogames.

Videogames haven't advanced to a high enough state where I forget that
I'm playing a game. Movies are more immersive in my opinion, the
violence much more realistic.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by satchmo on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 8:25pm
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One aspect of the article that's lacking is that it did not mention how the "aggression" in all these studies was measured.

How do they know for sure the person will act aggressively? Just looking at brain imaging patterns isn't very convincing for me. Can anyone actually prove that people's behavior changes after playing violent games?
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Captain P on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 8:38pm
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I think games, amongst other media, do make people more accustomed to
violence. Some games also show how bad and awfull it is (WWII, Vietcong
games), some games seem to encourage it (Manhunt, GTA). Games are no
different in the messages they spread than other media. They're
interactive, yes, but also require more action than the local newspaper
or tv-station to be seen.

I think some games have a bad influence. Some articles or tv-shows or
music bands too. I think there are dangers to this and I'd be glad to
see certain things being removed. But there's the free will of people,
and as long as people want something, you can forbid what you want,
unless they change from the inside they'll still find ways to do and
get what they want.

Banning or blaming a thing isn't the issue. It's humans themselves. God calls it sin, and that's what it is, in it's many forms.
Create-ivity - a game development blog
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crono on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 8:47pm
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satchmo said:
One aspect of the article that's lacking is that it did not mention how the "aggression" in all these studies was measured.

How do they know for sure the person will act aggressively? Just looking at brain imaging patterns isn't very convincing for me. Can anyone actually prove that people's behavior changes after playing violent games?
No. no, you really can't.

Also, in pretty much all the studies, they just measure these things that are fairly unquantifiable. I mean, sure, you can say things like "they lose reason when playing violent games". But they don't say what type of violence or anything.

The other thing that gets me, when researching this or anything like it, no one has EVER done an equal length study on the spefic children's households, or their parents. They're assuming certain values, just because the parents say so.

In all actuality, most people aren't very good at determining their own level of parenting. A lot of parents who say, "I taught them this", whatever it may be, fail to realize the lesson may have never taken grounds.

Then again, the entire field of psychology is a little flawed, since it assumes most people are the same. It also demands that you create a "base line" of what is normal, in which, for the most part, we don't have the right to do. (Past considering inducing harm)

HOWEVER! A MUCH more conclusive study would be to see if the rating systems are properly conducted. They said, they had kids playing violent video games ... what games? Were those games intended for 17 year olds? If so, why are you testing them on kids? They have an age restriction for a reason!

I think most people researching this, sometimes, are fishing for a specific answer and they're getting pissed because they can't make a solid connection.

If you know of a study like I'm talking about, please, post it up here.
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crapceeper on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 9:04pm
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I think that every person reacts differently to violence. Some people are very sensitive others can block aggressions easily. How the player can handle what he sees and does is the major thing that valuates the aggression produced by a game.
Parenting and education is mostly responsible for how one can handle all this.
Never try to be perfect - just try it and make the best out of it
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by $loth on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 9:46pm
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The thing is, the person has to be insane before hand of the game to be
able to commit such a crime, the game just act's as a way of them
finding a way to act out.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by satchmo on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 9:49pm
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the game just act's as a way of them finding a way to act out.
Instead of saying it's a "way" to act out, it's an "excuse" for them to act out. It's society's scapegoat for failing education and parenting.

I can't wait for the day to deathmatch with my kids.
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by ReNo on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 9:59pm
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On that last point, does anybody else think we are gonna make kick ass
old men? Old folk's homes are gonna be THE best gaming centres around
in 40 years or so when the gaming generation starts moving in :biggrin: None
of that "TV hour" bulls**t they try and pull on current OAP's; its
gonna be round the clock multiplayer gaming nirvana :smile:
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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Dark_Kilauea on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 10:02pm
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sweet!
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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by satchmo on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 10:02pm
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Except that after a few rounds of deathmatches, one of the players might really die from a heart attack. And someone might actually pee in his pants.

Fortunately, most of us would be wearing diapers by then anyway. :smile:
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crono on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 10:16pm
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Are you kidding? By the time we're in nursing homes (not to mention, you'd have to wonder what type of kids you'd have that would lock you away!) all the 'youngins' will probably be like, "Pfft, you have to use your hands? PATHETIC!"
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Captain P on Mon Sep 12th 2005 at 10:52pm
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Computers on thoughts? Not in the near future if you ask me. Just
imagine people thinking in images. Happens a lot and I think it's going
to be pretty difficult to translate brain activity to what a person's
really thinking, let alone what he really wants the computer to do/

Anyway, DM on my old day? Heh, might happen... what about mapping or modelling on your old day? :smile:
Create-ivity - a game development blog
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crono on Tue Sep 13th 2005 at 12:19am
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"Back in my day, the editor and modeler were separate ... nothing was object oriented ... We only had a 102 Key standard keyboard ... Monitors still used glass ... cordless products still used RF technology ... oh and we were really careless about power consumption"

Is something closer to what would happen.

And it was a joke. But, it wouldn't be that difficult, we already have ways of interpreting signals from the brain and the ability to send images to it.
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Nickelplate on Tue Sep 13th 2005 at 1:22am
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satchmo said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>the game just act's as a way of them finding a way to act out.
Instead of saying it's a "way" to act out, it's an "excuse" for them to act out. It's society's scapegoat for failing education and parenting.

I can't wait for the day to deathmatch with my kids.</div></div>
Good lord it feels great to hear someone else say what I've been thinking!!! It seems that people are always away and only have time to point out how bad other parents are. and when thier child goes bad, they blame something ELSE!!!
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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Hugh on Tue Sep 13th 2005 at 1:27am
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I did a paper on this hoo-ha back in the day, one of the methods they used to measure aggression was word association... like they'd have "_it" and you'd have to fill in the blank, and if you added an h to make hit, you're "aggressive" ... and I don't recall them linking "aggression" to violence.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crapceeper on Tue Sep 13th 2005 at 8:09am
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If you add an "s" they say you sit infront of some screen all day.
If you add an "f" they say you would like to fit in another computergenerated dreamworld.
If you add an "l" they say you like to burn people.
If you add a "b" they say you are a Zombie and like to eat peoples' brains.
If you add a "p" they say you are member of a extreme internet group.
If you add a "qu" they say you are disturbed by all the computergames and would like to quit it all and kill yourself.
If you add a "t" they say you are a sex offender and like to rape women/girls.

You know how they are...... Such tests are not relyable.
Never try to be perfect - just try it and make the best out of it
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by keved on Tue Sep 13th 2005 at 8:15am
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All these studies are ridiculous; getting kids to play 18 rated games. It's no different than, say, giving a kid a crate of beer for the afternoon, a stack of porno mags, or any other activity intended for adults and saying "See! Look what it does!"

"In 83% of instances where underage players are playing games rated for more mature players, parents are involved in the purchase or rental of the games"

How can this be legislated for?!

I wonder if Hilary Clinton and her linch mob are planning on introducing the same sentences for parents buying adult games for their underage kids as they are for retailers? Methinks not.

As it happens I was at a local Game store last weekend and a bloke was buying a game for his son. He asked his son what game he wanted. The son said all his mates were playing GTA: San Andreas so he wanted it to. I was standing literally a yard away and pointed out the 18 sticker on the front. The father bought it anyway. At a guess, the son was about 8 years old...
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Gaara on Tue Sep 13th 2005 at 9:32am
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I think if anything computer games have made people less violent. My grandad talks about how back in the ol' days him and his friends found nuthing fun to do so they used to fight eachother all the time.
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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Foxpup on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 1:38am
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Isn't this what the ESRB and the RSAC are for? It says 15+ / 17+ / whatever for a reason.
Better to be in denial than to be human.

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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by moonracer1313 on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 3:48pm
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Yes, I've thought of the retirement home gaming thing as well. If I
decide to take that route I'll definitely have a computer with me.

And yes, we've already hooked up wires directly to handicapped people's
brains so they can control wheelchairs and computer mice. It is
still quite primitive, but can be done.

I think a big concern to me is a lot of times either side will leave
out the "children" focus and just fight the broader argument that
violent videogames make people violent. As long as parents can
overide any restrictions (like taking their kid to an R rated movie or
allowing them a glass of wine for diner at home etc.) then I don't see
a huge problem. We would just get a broader range of game types
marketed to different tastes and age groups.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crono on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 4:03pm
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Cameras. You forgot cameras.
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by satchmo on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 4:13pm
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That's exactly what I say to my parents all the time. I can't
imagine myself being bored after retirement. I have all this free
time, and no homework or work responsibilities.

It's gaming heaven. I imagine a big LAN party everyday. The
old ladies can do what they want with themselves (knitting, buying
kitschy stuff from the Shopping Network, etc), but the old guys are
going have a blast deathmatching.

So what if we will have slower reflexes and less than perfect eyesight by then, we'll still have fun.

And certainly the age rating limitation wouldn't apply to any of us by then.
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 4:51pm
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Ye'll be old a wee bit before me, but I won't mind whuppin' up on yer Geriatric ass, Satchmo. In fact, I hope when I am old, that I still know you guys. /me loves SnarkPit.
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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Addicted to Morphine on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 5:40pm
Posted 2005-09-14 5:40pm
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Don't forget... we'll all be wearing Depends (aka adult daipers) so we
never have to break for the bathroom. And hey -- if you
hook me up to an IV all I'll need is a few hours sleep!
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by pepper on Wed Sep 14th 2005 at 5:55pm
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I recall seeing a documentary on discovery that had a article on mind controlled airplanes, the usa airforce was testing with it, so it doesnt look tofar in the future for me.

Well, all we can do now is find a politician that enjoys playing hl2dm. Or we make a mod in wich we can blow them up, nothing better then spend your time blowing up politician :lol: .
RUST Gamedesign
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Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by moonracer1313 on Thu Sep 15th 2005 at 5:07am
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Actually, I always pictured old folks playing MMORPGs more. So layed
back and time consuming. All that level grinding would be a
welcome time killer I imagine.

But I'm sure some of us geezerz will DM too.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by satchmo on Thu Sep 15th 2005 at 5:16am
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2077 posts 1809 snarkmarks Registered: Nov 24th 2004 Occupation: pediatrician Location: Los Angeles, U.S.
all I'll need is a few hours sleep!
Old people generally suffer from insomnia, so that's one less thing to worry about.

Man, why can't I have cool gaming grandparents now?
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Crono on Thu Sep 15th 2005 at 5:23am
Crono
6628 posts
Posted 2005-09-15 5:23am
Crono
super admin
6628 posts 700 snarkmarks Registered: Dec 19th 2003 Location: Oregon, USA
Wouldn't mmorpgs have the problem taking that a large percentage of elderly people have memory problems?

Also ... I heard something today and I have no idea if it's true or not (The claim, not whether the claim was made or not). Some doctor claimed that multi-tasking, as opposed to concentrating on one task, is detrimental to your long term memory. And could potentially lower your IQ (Which, I personally think is garbage to begin with. Kind of like the SATs ... I don't know what they're like now, but they don't take into consideration that you don't like exams)

It would probably make the most sense if you played adventure type games (Metroid, Sonic, R&C, etc) Since they don't require much knowledge or long term memory. You don't have stats and for the most part they're linear. (I'm speaking about the side-scrolling versions, if it applies)
Blame it on Microsoft, God does.
Re: Virtual violence or virtually violent? Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Sep 15th 2005 at 5:28am
Nickelplate
2770 posts
Posted 2005-09-15 5:28am
2770 posts 346 snarkmarks Registered: Nov 23rd 2004 Occupation: Prince of Pleasure Location: US
Addicted to Morphine said:
Don't forget... we'll all be wearing Depends (aka adult daipers) so we never have to break for the bathroom. And hey -- if you hook me up to an IV all I'll need is a few hours sleep!
Just hook my catheter tube straight to my IV and then I won't need to drink!!!
I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com