I know it's blasphemous to ask about a CS question at the SnarkPit, knowing there are many CS haters here.

But being the crazy dude that I am, I am going to do it anyway. I am considering to convert my Justice map to a CS defusing map. There are so many CS servers locally, but no HL2DM server.

I haven't made any CS map before, so I am wondering what is the best site to get started. When I googled, I found a lot of resources for CS, but not CS:S. I don't know how much difference is there between the two.

Any recommendations?

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Why, oh Satchmo, not just start with a fresh, new theme and do that for
CSS? From a designers point of view, I'd say, go for CSS but start
something new this time. You know you are capable of doing so... :smile:

About recommendations, I'd say, read David Johnstons blog and his site.
The author of dust and dust2 might learn you a thing or two about
CS/CSS maps. :smile:

Otherwise, there are several CSS-specific tutorials around, some on
Interlopers that I am aware of. Anyway, brushes and all basics just
apply, there's some other entities involved for the gameplay but
nothing too fancy as far as I know.

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

I think you should, its a good way to make really realistic situations and see what the gameplay changes to- good and interesting experiment for any mapper.

---

-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>start with a fresh, new theme and do that for CSS? </DIV></DIV>

I would love to do that, but there are always the real-world constraints. They are much more difficult to overcome than the limitations of the game engine. I mean, I can't just throw in some hint brushes and fix the issues in real life.

I am working more than ever now, and married life definitely takes more time and committment than being a bachelor. I can't stay up all night to map or play games, because I would feel terribly guilty if I allow my wife to sleep alone in the bed. It's not better or worse, it's just different.

Perhaps mapping would take a backseat to the other important diversions in my life from now on. It's sad to think that it's the end of an era in my life, but it may very well be so.

I can't imagine that once I have a baby I'll have much time to map. It's possible that I'll have to wait until retirement to take up serious mapping again. By then, HDR would be old technology, and the players might not be able to distinguish real-life from first-person games. I mean, the graphics would be photo-realisitc.

On that optimistic note, I'll go back to seeing more sick kids.

[EDIT]: JohnstoBlog was quite an interesting read. Thanks, Captain P.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

FINALLY! God, I was begining to think I was the only person that liked
CS:S. Personally, I dislike HL2DM. Mostly because the health ration is
odd. You can be shot a gajillion times and not die.

Anyway, here is a pertty decent site with source tutorials in the
forums. Also, just ask a question and you will get an answer with in
the hour.

www.csm2.net

---

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8521/windows981dk.jpg

Nickelplate is my dad

Indeed there are way too many people that bash CS:S because some yahoos say lol, but it's still a good game.

I say go for it.

Windows 98 said:
FINALLY! God, I was begining to think I was the only person that liked CS:S. Personally, I dislike HL2DM. Mostly because the health ration is odd. You can be shot a gajillion times and not die.

I dislike it because you start out with the gravgun that I can't use. and I get shot ONCE and die.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

You also start off with other stuff...

Plus the grav gun is quite powerfull in some occasions, but sometimes
you just have to rely on other stuff to be effective. HL2DM is frantic,
fast and action-packed. I like it. CSS is more cautious because before
you know it you're dead and moving out in the open is a sure way to
make yourself target nr.1. I like it less, but it has its merit just as
well.

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

I don't like CS in general because it never relates to my skill...DoD
Source falls victim to this stupid 'even ground' effect because of the
cone of fire. If I'm using say a sub-MG, I aim at the head, but because
of the cone of fire I miss the majority of the time, and in effect
create an outline of the other guy. While they have terrible aim, but
because they miss most of the shots lie on the the rims of the cone
which tah-dah, is where I am.

It's such a joke. I have no problem with having recoil, but the cone of fire is pretty rediculous.

Gorbachev said:
I don't like CS in general because it never relates to my skill...DoD Source falls victim to this stupid 'even ground' effect because of the cone of fire. If I'm using say a sub-MG, I aim at the head, but because of the cone of fire I miss the majority of the time, and in effect create an outline of the other guy. While they have terrible aim, but because they miss most of the shots lie on the the rims of the cone which tah-dah, is where I am.

It's such a joke. I have no problem with having recoil, but the cone of fire is pretty rediculous.

Canna getta AMEN-a!!

That's why I just hate those "realistic" games, where they try so hard to make things realistic the game gets to be no fun. Like MOHAA where u cant JUMP or RUN because of "realism" in the encumbrance that your ammo pack would give you. BS... I wanna jump ten feet in the air and have a rocket travel forever to the EXACT spot i shot it at, a la QUAKE3

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I like CS:S because the first bullet on the AK and M4 always goes where you aim.

Anyway -- I'd say go for it satchmo, if you like the CS:S universe enough...

yeah Go for it man.. I also like CS:S.. and map for it..

( I wonder what Blog software he uses - and thats a cool blog too. )

I map almost exclusively for CS:S. Not that I map much, mind.

A CS map and a DM map are quite different. In DM, there is no location-based objective. CS involves locations and teams, and your map should reflect that. Usually, for a bomb map (as an example), there will be two bomb areas. This is not a fixed constant, but two sites generally works better in terms of gameplay. The CT team will start near one bomb site (ie. able to reach it within a few seconds of spawning), with another site about an equal distance from both spawn areas. Each bomb site should have 2 to 3 paths into it, any more or less and the site could be too difficult or easy to defend. There should be enough connectivity that the CTs can check both bomb sites and have time left to defuse the bomb, and the Ts can go to the other bomb site if one is too well defended.

None of these rules are strict, they can be bent a bit. The rules for CS and CS:S are the same, so any general guide for mapping for either game applies to the other. I recommend you play CS:S often to understand how CS games flow. A DM map can become a good CS map, but its rare.

CS:S also has bots, so its easier to playtest your map with a large amount of players. Humans will act differently, but it still gives you a rough idea of how the map will play.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I always wanted to make a map or two from HEAT for CS:S.

If there were (I don't know if there is) some good vehicle support would make some set up for chase sequences through a city or on a highway.

Like ... if the terrorists had to rob a bank, hold off counter terrorists while they all make it to a car and get away. THAT would rock.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I have once again recycled the Justice architecture and converted it to
a bomb defusing CS:S
map. It's actually interesting to experience all three
types of gameplay in the same setting, at least I think so.

Unfortunately, the layout is too complex for the CS bots to
navigate. But I believe it'll make a good defusing map for real
players.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Addicted to Morphine, would your CS clan take this map for a spin? I would like to have some gameplay feedback, from real players (not bots).

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

I wanna jump ten feet in the air and have a rocket travel forever to the EXACT spot i shot it at, a la QUAKE3

</DIV></DIV>

tfc has that, and more. in fact, with a decent supply of concusion grenades and some fine timing, you can even jump the full height and length of the grid.

the models that cs:s offers should make it easier to produce nicer looking maps than hl2dm, as well as cs having a much larger audience. nickelplate was complaining recently, about having very few decent models to use in one of his maps, and my suggestion was to convert it to a cs map, because of the models thing.

---

i eat paint

In real life, it's a lot easier to meet another gamer who plays CS:S than HL2DM or HL2. And it's very true that there are a lot more realistic-looking models for CS:S than HL2DM.

Everyone has his/her own style of gaming.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Addicted to Morphine, would your CS clan take this map for a
spin? I would like to have some gameplay feedback, from real players
(not bots).

If I were still in the clan I would definitely try to get you a
playtest. But... I quit this summer. I don't even have CS:S
on this computer.

Sorry man. Maybe someone else here has some CS:S connections?

Thanks. I just spent the night playing with bots in my map, and
it's actually quite fun. I never thought that bots would pose
enough of a threat to me, but I guess I was wrong.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Bot suck, if you think bots are hard.... dont play online.

May I suggest makin a custom NAV file?

---

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8521/windows981dk.jpg

Nickelplate is my dad

hey my clan does play quite a bit of css

www.arclan.net

you can email me the map at

vash.arclan@gmail.com

oh yeah windows .. bots are hard on a well made map with propper flow..

*just wanted to let yeh know :wink: *

---

.else /me ~kill you
www.arclan.net

I have personally wiped out the entire opposing team by myself with real players, so I can handle myself online.

But with so many sniping spots in my map, sometimes I get sniped without knowing where it came from. I am alwasy surprised that the bots found these sniping spots all by themselves.

How do you make/modify a .nav file?

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

If bots are in your map, theres already a nav file...

When you add bots into the game, it automatically generates the nav file if there is none (this usually takes a while). It automatically finds all the sniper spots, choke points etc. I forget what the console commands are to tweak it, you can get into a special nav editing mode in-game. Try the Valve wiki.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

Yeah, I was pretty impressed at the process of generating the .nav file. It's quite amazing that it works so well without those info_nodes.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

Sorry about the pictures being missing, but I'm having him redo them soon. Its easy enough to follow without the pics I beleive.

http://csm2.net/forum/index.php/topic,1155.0.html

bassically the advantages to having a custom NAV is that the bots arnt
so stupid, You can make them get to some pretty nifty spots. It's fun
to make a maze map, the make it so like every corner is a sniping spot.
Even if it isnt long, Because they try to AWP you even though they are
like 2 feet away :smile: .

---

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8521/windows981dk.jpg

Nickelplate is my dad

Thanks Windows. That tutorial looks like some hardcore tuning.

[EDIT] I found this at the Valve wiki. It's quite useful too.

[EDIT2] Here is another useful forum for .nav file tuning. It's not easy to find, but I located it from many google searches.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

www.arclan.net

DUDE THATS AN AWESOME WEB PAGE! I will stop by your servers sometime.

Man, I just realized that there are whole communities on the internet that devote their energy to hand-tuning these .nav files for CS:S. It's almost like the SnarkPit, but they specialize in tweaking these bot navigation. It's almost like an art form.

The internet is a wonderful place.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

yes it is..

That special like bot tuning forum is cool, ive been there before.

They also do map painting, which is always a nice touch. If you dont
know what that it, its setting sections of your map to have a name on
the radar.

like this

---

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/8521/windows981dk.jpg

Nickelplate is my dad

That special like bot tuning forum is cool, ive been there before.

They also do map painting, which is always a nice touch. If you dont
know what that it, its setting sections of your map to have a name on
the radar.

How is that done?

One or another entity, how else? :biggrin:

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

Nope :razz: You 'paint' the bot navigation mesh with place names. Like this.

---

o

I feel that .nav tuning is almost like a final step in CS:S mapping. It's virtually necessary for the bots to be intelligent in any custom map.

Kinda like buildcubemaps, except it's not just for appearance.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

? quote:

www.arclan.net

DUDE THATS AN AWESOME WEB PAGE! I will stop by your servers sometime.

Seconded. I liek teh revolver.

---

o

// CP gets the heck out of CSS subjects... :wink:

---

Create-ivity - a game development blog

I learned how to hand-tune the nav mesh, and now the bots are pretty darn scary.

It's quite fun tuning the mesh. It's almost like another stage of mapping, but it's an entirely different skill completely. The best analogy is info_nodes and hint_nodes for NPC's, except that the mesh is much more versatile.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge