Is Sterilization the answer?

I am not 100% sure, but I am sure enough to post a thread on this.

Arkansas has a mandatory sterilization process that is used on all mentally handicapped people. Although I understand the reasons, I am iffy on its ramifications. What I am unsure of is how many States/countries follow this guideline.

The problem is, if its morally right, why stop at the mentally handicapped? (downs syndrome)

There are conditions that totally incapacitate people. Many Phobias leave people incapable of functioning in society. Why pass on those genes to another person?

Another thing to consider. How "Mental" does mental need to be to qualify? I mean, there are some psychopaths who harm others chronically. If they are in prison for it, why not sterilize them as "PART" of their penance to society?

What about homosexuals? There are those that believe that its a born trait. Why burden another generation with a passed on gene. (assuming its a genetic trait.) Consider, it is a choice after all. If they cannot make that simple choice, what other choices are they liable to make poorly?

So, the question is: "Is it morally proper to prevent another generation (progeny) from being inflicted with a mentally incapacitating condition?"

This is a topic about Sterilization, NOT a thread about life's choices. Try not to degrade it any more than is usual for a Snarkpit thread.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I voted for 1 whilst thinking of inherited mental disorders. What good
is there in having children if there is a 98% chance they'll spend
their entire lives in an asylum?

On the other hand I can't really picture someone locked in a mental institution having sexual intercourse.

Andrei said:
On the other hand I can't really picture someone locked in a mental institution having sexual intercourse.

Really? Can you picture it in prison? I cannot, yet it happens all the time.

We do in fact have a colony of sorts for the mentally handicapped. Its a State run institution. I have never worked there, but know many who have. Sex happens. A lot of it from what I have heard.

One thing I have never heard however. Mentally handicapped are as far as I can determine, 100% straight. There are no homosexual downs patients. I assume that this is just a "Non-reportable" issue and that there have got to be some. Strange, that mental patients know its wrong. Funny how they are the supposed "sick" people. :rolleyes:

Sadly, they seem to know more than prisoners or, otherwise.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

What exactly do you mean by sterilization? Do they use drugs on them or keep them apart, what?

Thats a tough question orph. I am going to have to think about that.

Spartan said:
What exactly do you mean by sterilization? Do they use drugs on them or keep them apart, what?

Hmm.. As far as I know, they physically make it impossibly to make children.

I am not sure, how.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

The state has no business physically altering people's bodies.

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http://maze5.net

The state has no business physically altering people's bodies.

Agreed

I can't believe I never heard of this before in Arkansas. Orph where did you hear/read this at?

I voted option 4. Sterilizing certain people seems like something out of Nazi germany or a terrible dystopia.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Spartan</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>The state has no business physically altering people's bodies.</DIV></DIV>

Agreed

I can't believe I never heard of this before in Arkansas. Orph where did you hear/read this at?

</DIV></DIV>

It used to be known as "The Children's Colony" its now known as "The Conway Human Developmental Center"

/me will look to see if it has an online website.

Nazi has connotations that color ones views poorly. You can disagree with a sentiment without resorting to that Morph. As poor a view as I have for the Nazi's, they did further our medical knowledge by leaps. The way I see it, give those poor people who died (the Jews and such), some purpose. Don't just write them off as a historical mistake.

I personally view sterilization as a viable alternative to creating misfits.

[edit] CHDC has a website..

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Andrei said:
On the other hand I can't really picture someone locked in a mental institution having sexual intercourse.

I worked in 4 different psych hospitals in the early 90's..... I can promise you there is sex.. plenty of it. That was one of the biggest things we had to watch for - crazy people sneaking off and doing 'naughty' things.

Finger said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Andrei</DIV>
<div class="quotetext">On the other hand I can't really picture someone locked in a mental institution having sexual intercourse.

I worked in 4 different psych hospitals in the early 90's..... I can promise you there is sex.. plenty of it. That was one of the biggest things we had to watch for - crazy people sneaking off and doing 'naughty' things.</div></div>
You don't have to mention how you voted Finger. I imagine you would have without provocation but, can you verify the sterilization thing? I mean, it may not be universal but, is it known to you?

</div>

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I don't agree with it personally.

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

The state certainly has business sterilising those that it has failed
in terms of education and social welfare, ie they should eliminate mass
underage births, and therefore low level criminal activity.

If only there was a chemical which could control chemical balance and hormones we'd be on the right track.

BTW, i'm entirely serious with my first remark. Discuss :smile:

Edit: i've seen i'm OT with Orphs thread, so please dont bait my
fascist ideas. For disabled people - yes, I think they should be
sterilised - even if it does not eliminate the chances of having a
child with such afflictions in medicinal science, it would be a good
thing in my eyes to 'eliminate' ineffeciencies from the gene poll
*whole new argument can spring from this.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Gwil</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Edit: i've seen i'm OT with Orphs thread, </DIV></DIV>

Again. This time in American English. :razz:

BTW, you been to the pub today? Your sentences lack their usual... Tidiness.

Oh, and I seem to be the only #3.. I seem to be the only one hugging the center of the road this time. :smile:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

i remember someting about this, but i'm not sure if the reasons were that people with downs syndrome would be incapable parents, or if it was that the condition is passed on 100% of the time.

anyone know what the real % of passing on downs is?

orph, is this sterilisation for males too?

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i eat paint

fishy said:
anyone know what the real % of passing on downs is?

orph, is this sterilisation for males too?

To my knowledge, as limited as that is, the odds are good that the syndrome is passed on but, not 100% of the time. You see, sometimes downs is not genetically produced. Sometimes its through accidents. Sometimes drugs. Sometimes its cosmic rays. IMO, only truly genetic downs patients would pass on the gene.

And yes, its both males and females. I know of at least one case where the patients, although sterile, got married and proved themselves capable of living outside the care facility. Their lives are limited but they are functional.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

The only people I would ever consider being sterilized (reversibly)
would be convicted rapists and child molesters, just so they don't
impregnate women against their will. The key word is
consider. Everything else is out of the question to me.

Alright -- I'll keep nazi's out of the equation, but I still think
diversity should be preserved (and shouldn't be underestimated) and
blanket steriliziation would create unimagined/unpredicted
shortcomings.

And since we're talking about mental diseases, how does shock therapy work?

You give it a jolt and hope it starts working properly, the same way people hit their tv sets when the image is blurry?

Yes I was at the pub Orph :smile: I still support a view that sterilisation is... sometimes needed.

You'd have to approach it on a case by case basis I guess.

I am beginning to get the distinct impression that if a thread isn't "permitted" to derail, its destined to die prematurely. :rolleyes:

I had thought that a thread of this type would have been a hot topic. With all the "forward" thinkers we have here at least.

Sterilization aside for the moment, these communities exist. Not talking about them isn't going to remove them.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I don't know a lot about genetics but one of my best friends here is
studying to become a molecular biologist / something else I can't
remember, and I asked him about this topic.

His response was pretty interesting.

He used this example:

Sickle cell aenemia is a deblitating disease. Why would it still
be around after thousands of years of human existence /
evolution? Because it seems that if you're a carrier for sickle
cell, you're more resistent to malaria.

My friend said there's so much we don't know about genetics that
destroying diversity would be a bad idea, because we potentially don't
know the ramifications of what we're doing.

He was talking more about disease, not mental illness or homosexuality.

They say that "Ignorance is bliss"

I tend to agree with this, to a point. Now, imagine I wasn't born... No don't wish it were so, just imagine it.

If I were not here, no one would be the wiser, not even myself.

Now, imagine me born with a mental illness, or gay. I would rather be not here. Thats as honest as I can put the imaginary thinking. Now, I imagine that there are others alive who wish that their parents knew in advance and had the option of not making them.

Thats harsh thinking but I bet its true in some instances.

I believe its a parents obligation to produce the most error free offspring they are capable of achieving. If the offspring have "Zero" chance at this, then sterilization is the only viable option.

Any parent who knowingly reproduces, knowing the chances are slim to none for normalcy, should be punished... SEVERELY!!!

Now thats where I stand on the subject. Like it, or lump it.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

ok.....ive stayed out of this discussion because, well, i wanted to see what some of the attitudes were.....and i really dont have a plausble theory set on this.....but.

*posted by orph

Now, imagine me born with a mental illness, or gay. I would rather be not here.

how do you get to that point jon?....the incapacitation would deter you from true comprehension of life, and environment....at least as far as the mental illness aspect goes....as for the gay part, i still do NOT believe that folks are born gay; IMHO.... let me make it clear....i feel its a concious choice, stemming from a multitude of reasons, circumstances, environment, etc....not a derivation of a "mental condition" or disfunction....if it were, would we not treat it as such as a society?...."im on disability because im gay..." hmm....i dont think so.....just my opinion though, which is like an ass, it usually stinks.....

Doc B... :dodgy:

I see myself, 10 or 20, maybe 30 years from now and I don't like it much.

I see old people in the checkout at Wal-Mart and they have no clue what they were doing just a minute before. These are people who have no previous mental disability and now.. I cannot imagine a child born this way and what kind of a parent would knowingly do so.

Forget the gay issue. I feel its a brain damaged scenario at best but for all intents of purpose, NOT a debilitating ailment. I just included it because its such a horrible thing and some consider it mental.

In the end, the thread's purpose is to establish a way/means of preventing children being born into a less than ideal situation.

If sterilization makes you squeamish, by all means, post an alternative. I am game. Its not as if we are going to make an impact in the world by just talking about this.

Doc, you know my views on the Gay issue.. I feel that one less born, is one less to deal with.. No one, not even Gay people wish they were born that way.

For all those who were not here in days gone by. I feel Gays are made not born, so it shows my willingness to be open minded as to the origins of the people in this topic. If it were my vote alone, the gay issue would never be included into a "born" theory thread.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Like you said in your first post, where do we draw the line?

I'm afraid that if you start sterilizing people for one reason, it might lead to more....

I would never want that to happen.

Addicted to Morphine said:
Like you said in your first post, where do we draw the line?

I'm afraid that if you start sterilizing people for one reason, it might lead to more....

I would never want that to happen.

Although human history seems contrary to the thought, you cannot avoid doing something, that might lead to "more"

I would like to think that some intelligence would play a factor in the equation. But, as I said, history seems to prove that out false.

I, would hope that you could think of another, more important reason than "could lead into more" If not, why create fission, it leads into bombs... Oh, theres that whole nuclear energy thing but, who cares about that?

Why do anything, it could lead into.... :rolleyes:

I believe a firm line can be drawn. I simply have to believe that there can.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

The whole slippery slope argument, while distressing, misses the point - it is wrong to sterilize even one person against their will.

Let me clarify a bit - sterilization is basically society saying to someone: "We are superior to you, and we deem you unworthy of living. However, since we can't outright kill you, we'll just stop you from having children".

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http://maze5.net

Well, I chose OTHER. I think that a governing board of smart, down-to-earth, non-bleeding-heart people should decide each case and establish precedents for future cases.

I fully agree with the sterilization of LOTS of unfit types of people. Humans are becoming more and more.. what's the word... "crappy" every generation. seriosuly, if we could stop some of these genes from ever being transmitted, we would get BETTER again like we always did before all this crap we got going on today with "tolerance" and all that.

Plus I tihnk cosmetic surgery should be outlawed. It's "genetic false advertising!!" sterilize ppl who have cosmetic surgery too...

Second, I think that if gays were TRULY gay, wouldn't they not HAVE kids? i mean... if homosexuality is genetic WHERE does the gene come from? If it's a mutation of a normal gene found in straight people, then it is classifyable as a disorder, which is NOT something gays want, right?

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

*posted by nickelback

Well, I chose OTHER. I think that a governing board of smart, down-to-earth, non-bleeding-heart people should decide each case and establish precedents for future cases.

I fully agree with the sterilization of LOTS of unfit types of people. Humans are becoming more and more.. what's the word... "crappy" every generation. seriosuly, if we could stop some of these genes from ever being transmitted, we would get BETTER again like we always did before all this crap we got going on today with "tolerance" and all that.

im kinda surprised at this set of comments coming from you nickel....seems....contrary to all you seem to espouse.... :/ and, if i may, as far as "getting better" as a human race, itll take alot more than "geneology"....and another consideration:for every gene that has been "cured", i feel pretty safe in saying, with all the experimental biological crap going on (thats another whole thread at least) i wonder what will be mutated because we DONT know what long term results will be.....how many drugs just recently have been pulled from the market after years of use, and finally someone realizes, "s**t, i f**ked that formula up good"....remember agent orange anybody? took 20 years for the government to even acknowledge it was a real screwup....

....and these are just a few we know of....the point is, the mistakes will be rectified, one way or the other, and new mistakes will take their place....we are too arrogant as a species to let nature do its thing...

*posted by mazemaster

Let me clarify a bit - sterilization is basically society saying to someone: "We are superior to you, and we deem you unworthy of living. However, since we can't outright kill you, we'll just stop you from having children".

brutal, but realatively true, imho....i'd almost have to agree with you on that one mazey.....but there are circumstances in which sterilization should be the option of choice....alas, mental retardation is NOT one of them....

however, a sexual predator should be....well.....denutted with a spoon....

all in the circumstances, imo

Doc B.... :dodgy:

mazemaster said:
it is wrong to sterilize even one person against their will.

Somehow, I bet that there is a million or so rape victims who would disagree with you Nick.

I just happen to be one of those people who think that there are more candidates than criminals.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I was under the impression that we were talking about mentally retarded people, or those with genetic diseases - ie: people who have committed no crime.

There's a big difference between sterilizing a rapist and sterilizing a retard.

The debate over sterilizing a rapist belongs in the same category as debates over the death penalty, or cutting off the hand off a theif.

Sterilizing a retard is a completely different subject: the reasons, justifications, etc are all unrelated - the only connection between the rapist debate and the retard debate is the fact that people are being sterilized.

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http://maze5.net

well, in my psychology semesters, we learned that lots of mentally retarded males will commit rape, especially of thier female relatives, because they don't know any better, they just feel the urge and do it. that is why they sterilize lots of these folks.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

mazemaster said:
Sterilizing a retard is a completely different subject: the reasons, justifications, etc are all unrelated - the only connection between the rapist debate and the retard debate is the fact that people are being sterilized.

I beg to differ. The common denominator as I specified, is a mental illness. Downs syndrome, was but one aspect. The only one, you seemed to key in upon. Perhaps, the only one you acknowledge as a mental illness???

The way I understand it, the mechanism that causes people to kill or rape or commit any bodily injury resides within the brain. That mechanism must be broken in some way or the person would never have committed the action.

Same holds true for homosexuality. Something in the brain is either disconnected, or broken.

The topic was about sterilization, but it was also to determine exactly what was "Mental" enough.

In your opinion, simple mental illness isn't a strong enough reason to do it. You defense is "Against their will"

In the case of true Downs syndrome patients, they have no will of their own, or, they would be functional humans. The concept of a Downs patient being capable of free will precludes them of it.

Your argument fails to establish free will as a defense Nick.

In the end, the commonality is "Mental" .. Thats the relationship you are, or should be searching for.

Forget the Criminal vs. Non criminal aspect. Its totally irrelevant.

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The best things in life, aren't things.