dm_osiris

So I finally finished up dm_osiris :smile: There are a few issues such as high r_speeds in a couple of spots and the layout might not be brilliant - but please bear in mind that it was created for the competition and as such I ignored my normal standards while building the map.

I've done my best to rectify them as best as I can, but you may still find a few bits and bobs that are a bit off.

Hope you enjoy :biggrin:

http://rain.frontline2.com/maps/dm_osiris.zip

see, i told'ya oicking would do this to'ya :biggrin:

umm...oicking?

Heh....anyway, I forgot to credit the author of the models that I used in the map (Ginsengavenger), so please consider this the credit until I get the chance to upload the zip again with an amended readme.

Yipee, at last :smile: Everyone download it, its one of the few great HLDM maps released lately and its also one of the best Egyptian maps under the sun.

Adam Hawkins said:
umm...oicking?

LOL, nevermind bud, i got your post and tracers mixed up :biggrin:

still, you never know, you might be an oicker too :heee:

tracers typo

You know Orph, I have no idea why my typo was funny. does "oick" mean somthing?

its Orph, let him have his fun :razz:

Tracer Bullet said:
You know Orph, I have no idea why my typo was funny. does "oick" mean somthing?

nah, doesn't mean a thing, but some typo's strike a cord, like Duncan's "workwork" one, and yours.

i knew what you meant, it was one of those situation funnies, elsewhere its lost, but right then funny as hell.

humor doesn't have to be understood, to be funny to someone.

as yakman said, allow me my fun :razz:

And comment on the map too please :smile:

it said fix_flame.spr not found m8. I think perhaps its in the wrong folder?

its in sprites/dm_osiris

Perhaps it should just be in sprites?

Edit: yes thats fixed it.

Bleeding pots, Spooky.


Thats uber btw, Love how it floats about.


Dodgy collision blocks for the models, So you shoot the air & they bleed & you can walk through the bottom because theres no collision there. Tbh, The main problem with this map is the models/collisions/bleeding etc. I dunno what you can do, But someone will tell you.


I longjumped into a wall :biggrin:

Heh, I know about the bleeding models - when I try to put them in the map as cycler_sprites, Hammer crashes on me so I had to put them in as cyclers (which don't have the option to make non-solid :sad: ).

And i'll fix the directory structure tonight when I add the credits that I forgot to the readme. I'm aware of a few issues in the map like model clipping and such, but with it being a DM map, I decided not to clip the tree trunks as i'm sure people would have complained about being stuck on them :smile:

That and i'm done for on this map (it's taken too long as it is) - and i'm ready to get the next one out the door :biggrin:

i like the textures :biggrin:

Did jeff ever release some jumbot waypoints for the comp maps?

I'm not aware of any, but then I haven't got any bots on my system so I probably wouldn't know if there were any waypoint files available

you now your bleeding models if you put seethrough blue on and not clip it works but you have to put i little extra around it try it if you want i might not work though mine has sofar on my TS bate but i still have not finished it yet i need to find a lampost model

Hmmm, IF you decide to recompile it to fix a few things (which is up to you really, its not unplayable or anything as is, they are just niggles really) then you should also consider doing something about the dropping block, as the bottom face of it is pitch black and looks odd. Is its initial position on the ground or something? That would mean it gets no light on it. You could either make it start at its top position if you haven't, or use that ZHLT light origin thingy to shift it somewhere bright perhaps.

Downloaded it, and my eyes just went like "whiiihoo !".

Looks great, feels great.

One of the best DM maps I've seen in months. :smile:

I see what you mean about the black under the block - it does look a little odd. Ah well...it's got to have an error somewhere, might as well be there eh?

I'll do another compile as soon as I get home - and let you know here when it's available :smile: That's it then though - I want to finish up my next map!

Cheers for all the feedback :biggrin:

Adam Hawkins said:
(it's taken too long as it is) - and i'm ready to get the next one out the door :biggrin:

you need to decide which group of mappers you want to be a member of, the ones who release quality, or the ones who don't.

time spent, should never be a deciding factor on why you release a map.

if the map was worth the time so far, it will continue to be worth the time it takes to achieve what you want.

i get really upset, when i see talent wasted, you have talent, now maybe you should develop the rest of what it takes to make a map.

pick your group wisely, cause once you do, its hard to switch to the better one later on.

/my harsh 2 cents.

Orph, this map and Rampart for that matter were never meant to be representative of my work, as I rushed them for the competition, and I admit there are elements in them that could have been better (i.e. no sound in Rampart, and dodgy lighting in Osiris).

I've spent too long on Osiris in that it would have been released in a less complete state if I hadn't decided to hold it back til after the competition. These two maps were a fun diversion from my FLF mapping, not serious maps like Sorrow and Resonance which I have spent a hell of a long time on (Sorrow is 2.5 years and counting!).

I also don't agree with your trying to label me as something that i'm not - and while I understand your sentiments, please don't.

Also, surely offering to recompile tonight to fix said lighting error shows i'm not what you are trying to label me as. Don't turn this into a flamewar, I've read your post, considered your opinion, I respect your opinion...but I feel otherwise. Sorry.

i only commented on your words, i didn't create them for you.

its just a shame when time is so important.

tis your map, but you cannot expect others to respect it any more than you do, if its only so important to you, it will be only so important to anyone else.

be upset, be happy, i don't care, be offended, or accepting, thats not important either, but don't expect more reaction from your map, with the attitude you have for it.

anyways, since i haven't seen the map i cannot comment on it, but i can still comment on you.

OK, i'll crawl back under my rock with all the other mappers who don't care about their work.

You win, I can't be arsed to argue.

Adam Hawkins said:
OK, i'll crawl back under my rock with all the other mappers who don't care about their work.

You win, I can't be arsed to argue.

look dude, its not arguing, its attitude.

i accept my position in the mapping community, i know i am not the best, but i also know i am way up the list from the bottom as well.

i realize the time issue, but you place it in way to important a position in your priorities, it shouldn't be.

release your work, but release it with the knowledge, that at this stage of your career, its the very best you can make. don't release it knowing you could have done better.

frankly i expect more from you, simply because you have been here long enuff to have absorbed some better values than you portray today.

i am not here to piss you off, but to advance you as far as i can, before the next better teacher comes along. you are good, but you have some fundamentals lacking yet, learn, be open, stop bellyaching about how i put you in your place or somesuch.

again, i commented on YOUR words, i didn't create them for you.

do your best, we will all respect you even if its not THE best :smile:

I think there is a stage to let a map go, and its obvious Adam has reached this stage with Osiris. Each map you make has a lifeline of development - for some its years, for some its hours. Once you've outlived this lifeline you'll end up working on it and not enjoying it, and that defeats the purpose of amateur level design. If you go beyond the time that you can be bothered working on a level, you'll end up growing to hate the level, and when that happens you'll quite often find yourself scrapping it. I know I've worked on and released maps I could have improved, but I don't regret releasing any of them, as they had reached the stage that working on them more was becoming a chore as opposed to a pleasure.

Although I wouldn't normally say something like Orph's statement right off the bat, it occurs to me that he is in fact correct. Looking at the map, there is obviously more to be done (big time); but you release it for the sake of releasing it? Why are only choice maps representative of your work?

i look back on all my maps and see where i could have made it better, but we are not referring to hindsight, or at least i am not.

what i am talking about is, at the time/moment i released all of them, they were the best i could create, i did not knowingly release errors, or deficiencies.

this is not the case here, TIME seems to be the driving force, because errors are known to exist, and even something as easy as a new compile seems to be just to much effort.

thats wrong, n many levels, and leads to still other excuses for why defects will exist in future releases.

each mapper has to ultimately answer to themselves,for their own actions, but as we have seen on many occasions, mappers who sell themselves short, are always the ones who get mad, when others point it out, like its ok if the be sloppy, but don't you dare tell me i am.

anywho's it seems to be, that i am either passing gas, or i am a scholar, i think its up to adam to decide which.

1. I couldn't say any of your maps are sloppy even if I wanted to Orph - as i've never played them.

2. I'm not getting angry - I just disagree with your quickness to judge me when you haven't even played the map

3. I stated many times that Osiris & Rampart were rushed for the competition - thus not representative of my best work. Not all maps have to be laboured over until they are perfect. I accept they're not perfect - that's not an issue. I built these two maps as a break and a bit of fun from my FLF mapping NOTE a bit of fun (for me). If other people enjoy the maps then so be it, if they don't then fair enough.

4. Orph, you've never been a teacher to me. I learnt all my mapping myself. Why do you believe that I would have learnt anything from you?

Again, this is not an attack on you Orph - just my interpretation of what has preceeded this post.

if i have nothing, you need to know, i will shut up then.

remember your words, they may play a part in future correspondences.

/outta here

I never said I would not learn anything from you - I said I haven't learnt anything from you.

Don't get me wrong - I respect you as a mapper, I just think sometimes your opinions are a little extreme or brash.

This is not an apology, neither is it a request for one. I just simply ask you to accept that we have differing opinions and ways of handling situations.

Peace

no apology offered, or expected, but i have to say, anyone who thinks they have been here as long as you and learned nothing, (yeah i realize you said from me) is either in denial, or an outright liar.

there are many mappers here better than us both, and i would not hesitate a moment to inform them of my opinions, it only seems the less skilled have problems , and thankfully, thats not the rule, but the exception.

i venture a guess, that if you have not learned a thing from my experience, then you never will, not because i have none to offer, but that you have chosen to accept its so.

lastly , and i have to stress this point, i do NOT trust any mapper, who doesn't download and look at each mappers maps, to establish if they have the skill necessary to be informative, i have looked at a few of everyones maps who i look to for advice, i would never take it otherwise.

if you have not done this (which you confirmed by mentioning you never seen my maps) then you really have nothing to learn here, you might as well pack up and create your own webpages for mappers who are entirely self taught.

sad as it is to see, this went poorly, because of your inability to accept, not close minded, but inflexible.

till you accept that stupid people like me are right on occasion, you will always be just like you are.

screw peace, just accept!

Never said you were stupid.

Never said you were wrong.

Why should I accept your view when I have my own? And I haven't played any of your maps as that would involve downloading them...i'm on a 56k modem and it's difficult to get hold of things when there are so many other items in my d/l list. I'm still working on getting Gollum's most recent map.

nevermind, you are being evasive.

i had 56k for 2 years, and on numerous occasions succeeded in downloading 300 megs files.

look bud, lets just accept we are not going to agree, you close your eyes to what i say, and i cannot see people doing that to themselves.

i will comment on the map when i get time, my 1.5 Mbps dsl has trouble getting maps sometimes :/

Ladies, please, this isn't the UN... it isn't right? runs

It looks very nice, the textures and construction really lend themselves well to the theme. The symmetry really doesn't do it for me, as the game would seemingly get boring fast when the map is essentially a big square arena. But that's just my worthless gameplay opinion, if you like that thing go with it. Weapon balance looks good, not too sparse, not to dense. There's good flow around the area and good connectivity as well.

The clipping around the firepots is suspect, since it seems like it reaches beyond the model into open space. That annoys me a whole lot when playing, but that's because I sidestrafe all the time and getting stopped by invisible barriers is not my cup of tea. Same with the top. I would have allowed the players to jump onto the pots and get burned by the fire if they were so inclined. Let them keep their options open so to speak. :biggrin:

The trees should have been clipped and the grass not. Usually people can walk through clumps of grass and not tree trunks...

That black bottom on the trap looks bad and should have been fixed.

The bleeding models should have been fixed as well. If DoD can have tanks and jeeps sitting around not leaking oil and bits of metal then you could do it here. Same with the clipping.

I would have liked the construction, texturing, and weapon balancing used on a bigger, more interesting, non-symmetrical map. That would have been something special. I feel the effort is rather wasted here. You've got all these seperate aspects of mapping going well, but they need to be combined in a well-designed map with a kick ass layout.

Also, you should NEVER release a map that will not load on other computers because of a simple oversight on where files go in the valve folder. That alone makes a revision necessary, so you might as well go back and fix up the other problems that have been pointed out.

I have all the comp maps but didn't think people were interested in the Jumbot any more. If people ever actually use it then i'll make some files for you.

You can be quite arrogant to the point of frustration at times Orph, you know that?

Why the hell should I 'pack up and leave' just because I have different values to yourself? Last time I checked, Leperous was running the Snarkpit, not yourself.

I don't claim to be a great mapper, I never have. I don't boast about my achievements - I could, but I don't because I know better.

I offered a peaceful hand only for you to refuse it, then to say exactly the same as me and expect me to accept on your terms? Why?

Each of your posts have subtle remarks trying to bait people to react so you can slam into them. Unfortunately, i'm not going to play your game Orph. If that lowers your opinion and other people's opinion of me then so be it.

I post here because I enjoy mapping and there are many likeminded individuals here. Why should I isolate myself simply to fuel your high opinion of yourself?

I'm angry because you attacked me as an individual. Criticism about my maps would be accepted justly and acted upon if I felt it needed to be (as have some of the more useful comments made by others here). You took the opportunity to bite into me and then have the cheek to try and turn it on me when I defended myself.

Sorry if you have the previous version, but I just uploaded a revised version that addresses the black bottomed bit, the clipping issue where KornFlakes got caught in the wall, and the directory structure for the sprite.

http://rain.frontline2.com/maps/dm_osiris.zip

Regarding models in DoD, they have a special entity that allows you to add models without having to make them solid etc. The only way I was able to add models was through the 'cycler' entity as the 'cycler_sprite' makes my Hammer crash the moment I point it to an .mdl file, hence the strange clipping round the models. The vase has a bounding box that goes slightly above its physical form, as do the smaller plants.

The trees however, have bounding boxes just on the leaves, which does indeed make a strange situation when you're able to walk through the trunks but not the leaves - I decided to leave it though as I figured more people would complain about getting stuck on the trunks than being able to walk through them :smile:

And regarding the layout - i'm considering doing a more serious layout than the simple symmetrical layout (that was a cop out on my side, as I wanted to create a couple of maps quickly for the competition...there's another 3 that I never got round to finishing)

Cheers Yak for the constructive criticism. It's much appreciated :smile:

Perhaps have one side of the map all ruined/broken? It could essentially retain the same layout (make it easier for players to navigate), but still provide a nice change of gameplay from the other side.

That's a great idea that I might just save for a non-symmetrical map :smile: Unfortunately, dm_osiris doesn't want me to add any more stuff because of the Allocblock:full error that I came across this weekend, but i'm sure something could be done along those lines for another map :biggrin:

Adam Hawkins said:
I offered a peaceful hand only for you to refuse it, then to say exactly the same as me and expect me to accept on your terms? Why?

There's some Eastern philosophy I read once that said something akin to "the warrior fights not to change himself, he fights to change his enemy."

While I don't know if Bushido quite applies here, the general principle still stands; I quite understand what Orph is doing, and he's doing it to try to get you to understand something as well. Don't try to pass of his words as soon as they offend you, because he's not trying to prove something to his own ego, he's trying to prove something to you. No doubt, he inflamed and somewhat deflated his point, but what he's saying is still correct, and your reaction was a classic one.

I hate to take things off the direct subject, but if you've ever read/seen Oedipus the King, you probably remember the scene between Oedipus and Tiresias, wherin Tiresias attempts to force the truth into him, and Oedipus simply hides from it by hurling every insult he can scrape out of the bottom of the barrel at the prophet, while calling himself humble and speaking arrogantly of his feats at the same time. And I see it happening all over again, with slight alterations of course.

Orpheus was right, and the fact that he exaggerated his point is irrelevant. There is clearly more work to be done on this map (see Yak's post), and though it is suitable for release on a general scale of mapping, your skill is quite beyond that which is shown in the map. To start and release a map in a short period of time, out of your own free will (I'm not talking about the competition version), when it is clearly not done to the best of your ability, is somewhat pointless, and could easily be construed as a mark of sloppiness.

Again, the argument does not constitute cause for a soap opera, but I believe Adam treated it the wrong way - Orph's statement, while harsh, was not necessarily personal; he's much wiser to get into childish ego-fights (most of the time :biggrin: ). And most certainly, do not attempt to make a point against him by purposefully twisting his words (and that includes taking his words too literally) - painting a picture of Big Bad Orph, stereotyping innocent mappers while touting his own works, acting like he owns the place, because I well know that's a far cry from the truth.

Orph is right, you closed your eyes, put up a defense mechanism of ignorance as soon as his words threatened you. So let's just calm down, ladies and gents, and not by storming out and ignoring the issue, but actually understanding what the hell we were talking about the whole time.

• Love and Peace,

Your friendly neighborhood Cassius

Wow cass, thats the longest, most thoughtful post I've ever seen from you. I don't agree with it entirely, but its very well put across.

the little s**t can be quite eloquent when he wants to be cant he?....

ok...heres my take, for what its worth.....use it or lose it at your discretion...

orph, yer as tactful as ever... ....but then i expect nothing but the brutal truth from you...consistency is a must, and i see no reason to mince words with adam either...well done.... :wink:

adam, this is actually quite a fine piece of work...i think the texturing is very very nice, and the feel is superb....you are to be commended....to a point....i do think you served this puppy up before its time tho, as the critiques ive seen are quite valid, especially after running around in it for an hour.....the mashing rock in the center scared the living s**t outta me, to the point i was cussing like a sailor...

the only thing i would add, and this is just personal taste, is maybe not clipping the exterior quite so close to the pathways outdoors....i really really wanted to stand on top of the edges and have a looksee....to no avail, unless i missed something...personally i think it would have added a dimension, and enhanced the feel...going from one extreme to the other....i like the symmetry; go figure, i build boxes for a living...

its up to you entirely, but search yer soul man, and really contemplate whats been said by all, and i think youll have to agree in the long run.....gj tho man, although its not your best work....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

one thing people must remember about me, i don't beat my maps up to make them look better, i don't claim they are what they are not, in fact, i am my own worse critic and enemy about them.

my goal, is always to better others, especially where i cannot better myself.

my maps, always miss the mark IMO, if people think i am trying to portray them as poor, just to get some kind of sympathy, they obviously don't know me at all.

my comment about Adam, was about Adam, not his map, i stated several times i hadn't looked at it yet, i was mearly pointing out that i cannot respect him, when he doesn't even respect himself.

a simple re-compile was nigh unto pulling a damned tooth it was so inconvienent...

anyways, thanx for the support on both sides, personally i hate to see people sell themselves short, most especially on purpose.. if Adam would care to re-read what i wrote, pretend it was about Jeff, or someone else able to accept criticism, and then decide if it was valid, that would suit me just fine.

i must point out one last time, if someone gives 100% and the map still falls short, you can still respect them for it. time is unimportant, effort is.

Orpheus said:
my comment about Adam, was about Adam, not his map, i stated several times i hadn't looked at it yet, i was mearly pointing out that i cannot respect him, when he doesn't even respect himself.

a simple re-compile was nigh unto pulling a damned tooth it was so inconvienent...

This was the bit that got me wound up Orpheus. The face that you were critiquing me rather than the map, from a simple comment from one of my posts. That doesn't mean you know me, nor does it mean you can judge me as not being respectful to myself.

And the bit about a 'simple re-compile'. Did I make any fuss about doing it? No. As soon as I got home from work, I fixed it up and set it going.

Say what you will Orph. I no longer value your opinion.

OooOOOH. JERRY JERRY!

Orph: I think Adam can accept critisim, he has lissened to other people and implemented their suggestions. Probably because these people have personally attacked him, saying that though i do agree with some of what your saying. As i agree with both of you, kinda, i've decided to allocate myself the official position of banana eater.

Carry on, nothing to see here.^^

Adam Hawkins said:
Say what you will Orph. I no longer value your opinion.

this map, deserves better, than its creator.

[edit]i had a whole page, one well written, and would have put you in your place, but you know what, you did that already. [/edit]

Because its always the other party that needs putting in their place.

Whatever, merry xmas.

Orpheus said:

Adam Hawkins said:
(it's taken too long as it is) - and i'm ready to get the next one out the door :biggrin:

you need to decide which group of mappers you want to be a member of, the ones who release quality, or the ones who don't.

time spent, should never be a deciding factor on why you release a map.

if the map was worth the time so far, it will continue to be worth the time it takes to achieve what you want.

i get really upset, when i see talent wasted, you have talent, now maybe you should develop the rest of what it takes to make a map.

pick your group wisely, cause once you do, its hard to switch to the better one later on.

/my harsh 2 cents.

lets erase all your evil posts and begin again with good advice shall we.

adam, bottomline, you were/are wrong, just fess up and admit it.

You really are taking this too far now Orpheus.