I think that he should not. Because nobody ever demands that anyone
else apologize for stuff like that. Plus i think apologies are mostly
Cack. Especially when forced.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I have no idea what you're talking about. Despite that I think both parties should just chill the f**k out. Live and let live, etc.

---

o

I don't think he should apologise, but in the future he might be more
careful when trying to make a theological point. In the current climate
of distrust and fear between Islam and the West, his quotations were
ill advised. I'm not saying it should be a no no to speak out against
religion either - heaven knows we have dozens of people here alone who
persecute people with any faith, rather ignorantly, may I add.

However, those particular quotes are pretty far reaching and all
encompassing - there's just as many moderate Muslims as there is
Christians, they too have the right to lead their lives without being
brandished as violent and evil.

Edit - This is what Nickel is talking about, BTW:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5D2B8367-5315-4D52-B544-EE402F4F4C16.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5349578.stm

Edit edit - also, good point. Forced apologies are rubbish.

I just remember when I was a little kid and I called some kid a n*gger in school because he punched me and triued to take my lunch (he WAS black...) and they made me appologize before I could go to lunch, at which time I had no lunch because the black kid had ruined it.

Forced apologies just tick me off.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

...sigh...

Whether the Pope was right or not, this was not the best time to make a
statement that could be interpreted as being
an attack made by a Christian against Islam.

So I voted for 1. After all, what's more important? Offending some
Muslims for the heck of it or diminishing the tensions between Christianity and Islam?

Nickelplate said:
I just remember when I was a little kid and I called some kid a n*gger in school because he punched me and triued to take my lunch (he WAS black...) and they made me appologize before I could go to lunch, at which time I had no lunch because the black kid had ruined it.

Forced apologies just tick me off.

What the f**k?

<div class="quote"><div class="quotetitle">? quote:</div><div class="quotetext">
<div class="quote">

</div>
What the f**k?</div></div>



[edited]

He quoted someone, so I see no reason why he should appologise.

He should apologize, god damn it!

This is not about ideals, this is about sedating the insane. I don't get why he used this highly quotable words in the first place. He must have seen it coming.

Like I always say the only alternative to apologizing to extremist movements is to lock them up or "kill 'em all". In the case of a few million civilians in so many countries this isn't really a choice. Remember that he isn't apologizing to Mr Bin Laden but mostly to average people. There's no Hitler or Stalin that can be overthrown to make it all end.

It is not the time yet to teach them freedom of speech. First, they have to calm down. And get a life enjoyable enough to not need the Koran to endure it.

I think no one should apologize for telling the truth. If they wanna prove otherwise, they better start acting accordingly.

I don't think you can "educate" people to be less extreme this quickly. I saw pictures of angry mobs burning pope-dolls (pope-dolls!). How should you explain to them that it is the pope's right to quote (in their eyes) highly provocative words from a medieval emperor? The last thing we need is some arkward holy war against Catholicism.

For me this all was just a sign of how powerful the church still is in Europe. This is more than just about loving Jesus and being a good christian. This is religion mixed with politics. It's pretty scary.

Hey Kain, glad to see you still around here.

I think he's decision was a dumb one. Here's the pope, failing to express the very values he says he follows.

Apologising is too late now, in my opinion.

---

Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

I voted other just to see the results.
Is there a copy of the actual speach somewhere on the net? I'd love to see it so I can see what everyone's talking about, in context.

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Hey!

Im black, and I live in south africa.
Tut Tut Metalplate :razz:

If a pope starts getting old and gets alzheimers, and it makes him very aggresive towards certian people or groups, what do the church do?

I'm not saying that the pope's got alzheimers and thats why this is happening, I'm just wondering what would happen if this ever occured.

---

Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.

I think just about everyone is being an intolerant asshole, live and let live, anyone?

---

RUST Gamedesign
pepper design

The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee.

live and let live, anyone?

Not in this day and age.

Here's the pope, failing to express the very values he says he follows.

Enter religion.

Oh and the quote itself was retarded. The very religion the Pope defends was spread and imposed through
violence.

He should apologize.

---

What the Snarkpitters listen to!

Jimmi said:
Hey!

Im black, and I live in south africa.
Tut Tut Metalplate :razz:

Yes, but YOU didn't spill my lunch all over and then I had to apologise to YOU.

The pope can still practice Christian Values while telling the TRUTH about Islam. If you can show me ONE islamic country without oppression, violence and turbans, I'll rescind.

Otzman, why should he apologize? He was quoting someone.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

telling the TRUTH about Islam. If you can show me ONE islamic country without oppression, violence and turbans

What's so bad about turbans?

The pope can still practice Christian Values while telling the TRUTH
about Islam. If you can show me ONE islamic country without oppression,
violence and turbans, I'll rescind.

You don't know about Islam. Sikhs wear turbans, not muslims. Islam
wears similar things, but technically they're not turbans. Either way,
show me a Jewish state without skull caps, opression and international
law violations.

As for the countries -

Bahrain

Kuwait

Dubai

Qatar

Probably a few more too.

Hey!

Im black, and I live in south africa.
Tut Tut Metalplate

Yes, but YOU didn't spill my lunch all over and then I had to apologise to YOU.

The pope can still practice Christian Values while telling the TRUTH about Islam. If you can show me ONE islamic country without oppression, violence and turbans, I'll rescind.

Otzman, why should he apologize? He was quoting someone.

The irony is...Im not even black. :rolleyes:
I dont know why I said I was.

Anyway, if the Muslims say loads of crap about Christians ALL THE TIME and generaly want to annihilate of Christians, why cant the pope do the same?

This, as usual, is a total over reaction. People at the moment are much to over sensitive about relegion.

That is nothing but my oponion. If you disagree, dont be angry. It is nothing more than my oponion.

EDIT: And while the Pope is being screamed at for a rather mild insult people in some countries are having their head's chopped off because of their relegion or skin colour.

Dark_Kilauea said:
Hey Kain, glad to see you still around here.

I think he's decision was a dumb one. Here's the pope, failing to express the very values he says he follows.

Apologising is too late now, in my opinion.

Thanks, Dark-Kilauea :smile:

Yep, still here, although spending more time on political blogs lately than on SP (except when it gets political in here)...

My point is: if muslims said christianity was a bad religion, would christians react the same way? or would they simply start a discussion? not so long ago, muslim fanatics burnt danish embassies all around the world for some bloody cartoons... If you can't stand criticism, it means there's something wrong with you, or with your religion... Have you ever heard of Franciscan brothers blowing themselves near a mosque??

Anyway, if the Muslims say loads of crap about Christians ALL THE TIME and generaly want to annihilate of Christians, why cant the pope do the same?

To at least try to avoid war and hatred. Everyone knows that there are extreme islamists. It's not really something new, it just provokes.

It's like saing "You stink!". When there's no way to get a shower.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Kain</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>My point is: if muslims said christianity was a bad religion, would christians react the same way? or would they simply start a discussion? not so long ago, muslim fanatics burnt danish embassies all around the world for some bloody cartoons... If you can't stand criticism, it means there's something wrong with you, or with your religion... Have you ever heard of Franciscan brothers blowing themselves [up] near a mosque??</DIV></DIV>

Kain, I knew that if I had said this, it would have been disregarded immediately. I'm glad you've said that, so I can say THIS: QFT!

People have been insulting Christianity for a long, long time, but I know I've never so much as punched someone for it, much less killed innocents. I hear or read insults to Christianity just about every day of the week. Big deal, to me, it's just a sign that the ones doing the insulting are just insecure. If I retaliate and overreact like CERTAIN PEOPLES who kill innocents, it is I who am insecure and the critics who are right.

My view is this: If a religious text says to spread its religion by the word and to take over countries and to kill people who do not beleive in it, then anyone who believes in that religious text and therefore that religion is a terrorist. Anyone who has a more liberal interpretation of that religious text is not truly following that religion.

[edit] I just don't like turbans that's all. and when i said "turbans" you knew what I meant... the towel things...

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

then anyone who believes in that religious text and therefore that religion is a terrorist

Generalisations ahoy!

Anyone who has a more liberal interpretation of that religious text is not truly following that religion.

f**k me, do you want me to knock down the number of "Christians" by about 80%?

[color=white]. If I retaliate and overreact like CERTAIN PEOPLES who kill innocents, it is I who am insecure and the critics who are right.

Chalk one up for you being insecure.

[/color]

<div class="abouttext">Message submitted 6 minutes after original post:</b></div>

Dark_Kilauea said:
Hey Kain, glad to see you still around here.

I think he's decision was a dumb one. Here's the pope, failing to express the very values he says he follows.

Apologising is too late now, in my opinion.

Thanks, Dark-Kilauea :smile:

Yep, still here, although spending more time on political blogs lately than on SP (except when it gets political in here)...

My point is: if muslims said christianity was a bad religion, would christians react the same way?

Not quite the same thing, but, the "Coalition of the willing" started
two wars based on belief in guidance and belief in judgement of their
"God". If Buddhists flew two planes into 10 Downing Street, I more than
expect us to go and bumb the f**k buggery out of Tibet, Nepal, India
and China.

We have to maintain our high standards somehow. Islam didn't start this most recent conflict of religious ideals - we did.

? quoting JimmiHey!
Im black, and I live in south africa.
Tut Tut Metalplate :razz:
Yes, but YOU didn't spill my lunch all over and then I had to apologise to YOU.
The pope can still practice Christian Values while telling the TRUTH about Islam. If you can show me ONE islamic country without oppression, violence and turbans, I'll rescind.
Otzman, why should he apologize? He was quoting someone.

He offended millions of muslims, that's why he should apologize.

Also, I am so incredibly tired of how people have a very skewed picture of islam. Some people seem to think muslims beat their wives, daughters whatever. Wrong. I'd wager people of the "western world" beat their wives, daughters, girlfriends whatever at least as much. Also, the idea that women are mistreated in every islamic country and family in the world is also a popular, but very incorrect, belief.

Some people say "islam is wrong" based on what they've learned from the newspaper and gossip. That is just so utterly annoying.

And about the cartoons in the danish newspaper. While I think the violent actions some people took were a bit over the edge, what is much worse is the inability many people have to understand the anger many muslims felt towards these cartoons. If the same had been done a hundred years ago with Jesus instead of Muhammed, I'm sure many christians would have reacted in a similar way. I think that instead of just saying that "it's just religion, what's the big deal" people should try to respect the value of others a bit more.

---

What the Snarkpitters listen to!

Very well said Otzman.

You can interprete the Bible the same way extremists interprete the koran to kill innocents in the name of god. I'm not a bible researcher. But a quick look in the book and some theology papers and you can construct a call to holy war and terrorism with words from the bible. And just as easily claim your interpretation is the right one and everyone following a more liberal interpretation isn't truly following the religion.

That's what happened with the taliban. Also religion is just a vessel for the anger about decades of humiliating exploitation for oil by western countries.

It took centuries for any form of christianity to become as moderate as it is today. Just imagine trying to convince a fanatic christian to not burn a "witch" in medieval times. What words would you use? Would you tell him that it was the right of the witch to read spells from the witchbook? Not if you'd like to see her live.

Powerful people have to be diplomats. And this was a really, really poorly chosen quote.

the koran

Qur'an.

I think it's acceptable to Anglicise it to "Koran".

Personal nitpick of mine.

Touche :razz:

Gwil said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>then anyone who believes in that religious text and therefore that religion is a terrorist

Generalisations ahoy!

That's what religion is, my friend. If the bible says "Kill all blacks" and I say "I believe in the bible" then that means that I think I should kill all blacks. Same thing. If I do not beleive in that part, then i don't FULLY beleive in the WHOLE book and am therefore not REALLY of that affiliated religion.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Anyone who has a more liberal interpretation of that religious text is not truly following that religion.
</DIV></DIV>

f**k me, do you want me to knock down the number of "Christians" by about 80%?

If that's how many are fake, then yes.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>. If I retaliate and overreact like CERTAIN PEOPLES who kill innocents, it is I who am insecure and the critics who are right.
</DIV></DIV>

Chalk one up for you being insecure.

[color=red]Well, really. How is that insecure? Someone compared the overreactions of Islam to the hypothetical reactions Christianity if it were in the same position. The idea of comparison was not mine in this case.

[/color]

<DIV class=abouttext>Message submitted 6 minutes after original post:</B></DIV>

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Dark_Kilauea</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Hey Kain, glad to see you still around here.

I think he's decision was a dumb one. Here's the pope, failing to express the very values he says he follows.

Apologising is too late now, in my opinion.</DIV></DIV>
Thanks, Dark-Kilauea :smile:

Yep, still here, although spending more time on political blogs lately than on SP (except when it gets political in here)...

My point is: if muslims said christianity was a bad religion, would christians react the same way?

</DIV></DIV>

Not quite the same thing, but, the "Coalition of the willing" started two wars based on belief in guidance and belief in judgement of their "God". If Buddhists flew two planes into 10 Downing Street, I more than expect us to go and bumb the f**k buggery out of Tibet, Nepal, India and China.

We have to maintain our high standards somehow. Islam didn't start this most recent conflict of religious ideals - we did.</div></div>

I agree. We (westerners) are partially responsible for the general anger in that part of the world. I also agree that we have to keep high standards -- ALL of us, even those of the "religion of peace." If the USA were a "CHRISTIAN" nation I'd say that we ought to follow biblical standards. But in light of the removal of the word "God" and all things biblical from our society I'd say we are no longer worthy of that designation. An atheist nation has no moral stipulations I think.

---

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http://www.dimebowl.com

man....my horse-s**t-o-meter is going bonkers about now....on many fronts.....

****must resist...

Doc B... :dodgy:

do you want me to knock down the number of "Christians" by about 80%

Yes I do. There are too many fake christians. They talk the talk but never walk the walk. I'm frusterated by the number of people out there that call themselves followers of christ, but never follow the bible, and worst of all, do not have a relationship with god, which is the very cornerstone of christianity. I would even go so far as to say that the pope may not even be a true christian!

Which begs the question, how do you tell? Look for those that have been changed by christ. Look for those that do more than just talk, those that help others and follow the teachings in the bible. Those are the true christians.

---

Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

reaper47 said:
[...] Just imagine trying to convince a fanatic christian to not burn a "witch" in medieval times. What words would you use? Would you tell him that it was the right of the witch to read spells from the witchbook? Not if you'd like to see her live.

That's an interesting example Reaper47: if I were in that position, I WOULD tell him he's wrong! I won't start a war, I won't make a fight, but god damn it, I wanna have the right to speak my heart, just say what I believe is the truth!

The only difference with our current situation is that, in the example, the two persons speaking are both christians, one moderate and one fanatic: I wish these words (the pope's) came from a moderate muslim instead, then it would have made more sense, and it couldn't be considered in any way insulting/condescending etc.. Problem is moderate muslims are too scared to speak up...

If the world doesn't say that fanaticism is wrong, instead of "they" evolving, "we" (I'll consider myself part of the "civilized" world just to make my point... ) will start going backwards, towards another Middle Age: George Bush being elected instead of Kerry, what next? Jean-Marie Le Penne instead of Chirac??

Can't we just focus on our common religious historical-enemy: Rome?

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Firstly, the US is not a Christian nation, it's just shown that way.
Secondly, the Pope is Catholic, and very few of the united states have ever been Catholic (southwestern states, and they aren't anymore).

So why are the Pope's remarks being associated directly with the US? Because people enjoy kicking the two.

He shouldn't apoligize if he was quoting someone, that's like me having to apoligize for saying n***** while reading from Huckleberry Finn.

That's it, I'm going to read the Qu'ran

---

Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

Nickelplate said:
If a religious text says to spread its religion by the word and to take over countries and to kill people who do not beleive in it, then anyone who believes in that religious text and therefore that religion is a terrorist. Anyone who has a more liberal interpretation of that religious text is not truly following that religion.

Ignorance is bliss? Bulls**t. Ignorance is Nickelplate.

That's an interesting example Reaper47: if I were in that position, I WOULD tell him he's wrong! I won't start a war, I won't make a fight, but god damn it, I wanna have the right to speak my heart, just say what I believe is the truth!
The only difference with our current situation is that, in the example, the two persons speaking are both christians, one moderate and one fanatic: I wish these words (the pope's) came from a moderate muslim instead, then it would have made more sense, and it couldn't be considered in any way insulting/condescending etc.. Problem is moderate muslims are too scared to speak up...
If the world doesn't say that fanaticism is wrong, instead of "they" evolving, "we" (I'll consider myself part of the "civilized" world just to make my point... ) will start going backwards, towards another Middle Age: George Bush being elected instead of Kerry, what next? Jean-Marie Le Penne instead of Chirac??

It's not that I don't want to see the topic being discussed by those involved. I think my point is mainly timing and, like you said the persons who start discussing. I don't know where exactly and how to start convincing extremists that their violent ideas are wrong. But I think it's problematic to have people starting provocations without excusing as this only divides extremists and moderate people even more, creating a spiral of ignorance. This is a slow process IMO, something that cannot be stopped by a revolution from the outside but only a slow revolution from the inside. In other words I doubt the pope can convince radical islamists to drop their weapons now. But he could have made a step in the right direction if he made clear that he respects islam. Now all he can do is limiting the damage.

we need the spacemen to come back and explain that it's all been a huge misrepresentation of what actually happened.

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i eat paint

i voted for an apology, i don't feel that he should be forced to apologize though, he should do it because by saying what he did he backtracked into an era of Catholicism we don't want to go to

sure the Catholic church at one time was very corrupt and violent, its goal has always been a unified world church, nowadays its methods have changed to a more open minded type where unification is still key, but it doesn't have to be a Catholic one. The Catholic churches is one of the view today that allows the view that their religion may not be the only correct one, that we all worship the same God just in our different ways

because of this approach towards world church i feel that the Pope should have avoided these words and should apologize for them

Stadric said:
He shouldn't apoligize if he was quoting someone, that's like me having to apoligize for saying n***** while reading from Huckleberry Finn.

I don't think that's analogous. As the highest member of the Catholic church, his comments will always been heard, scutinized, followed etc... Additionally, just because you're quoting someone else doesn't change the fact that in choosing to quote said text... you were making a decision. I guess it'd be like going into an NAACP meeting and thinking it'd be a good idea to start quoting racist passages out of traditional fiction. Not the best idea, I'd guess.

I agree with what the Pope said, and I don't think that he should've apologized.

Violence in any context is bad. Most major religions have used the excuse of faith to committ acts of atrocity over the ages. Christians have done it (The Inquisition, The Crusade), Muslims have done it (the current conflict in the Middle East), and Jews have done it (ditto the previous).

The only exception I can think of is Buddhism.

When was the last time you heard of a Buddhist suicide bomber?

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

When was the last time you heard of a Buddhist suicide bomber?

The reason it is my personal favourite.

EDIT: Wait... Some Kamikaze pilots cetainly were Buddhist. I think it's not comparable, though, as religion isn't really used as a motivation (more peer pressure and strange concepts of "honor"). Also they hadn't civilians as targets.