The discussion on many of our minds recently has circled around time constraints. Most of us, me included, have pretty full schedules. Mine are work related, and I am sure some share that.

The point of this poll is to focus our attentions on if our schedules are truly full, or if our lives have just taken a path away. Tis true that no poll will truly show this, but I am betting that it will get us to thinking about ourselves. The future of mapping begins with each individual.

For instance. My work schedule is indeed full. I leave on a 4 day run to somewhere and am so tired when I get home that I cannot hardly sleep for the fatigue. However, I am no more busy or tired now, than I was when I produced my maps in the past. I use the fatigue as an excuse more now. Mostly, because its true, but partly to disguise my lack of interest in mapping.

So which is it? Are you busy enough to not map, or just busy?

( I realize that it may be a combination of these choices in this poll, but its hard to have any poll with clear cut choices. Pick the one most likely )

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Hmmm.....

I voted option #1, as it happens.

I kinda figure most will be number one. Even if choosing so is an excuse.

I was leaning toward it myself, but opted for "other". Since my being unmotivated is more honest than my being to tired from working.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

TBH the extra time I have is used for editing/reading Wonkypedia -
which I class as sort of studying anyhow, going to the pub 2/3 times a
week - thats nearly 10-15 hours in total and finally I still play games

• Armed Assault, where one sitting lasts 4-6 hours... to say nothing of

the allotment I recently took on, travel time, cooking and cleaning
(its how I pay the rent).

Really I should say other but as the majority of my week is spent
inside or outside Uni looking at exciting topics such as the British
Aristocracy YAWN, my answer is school.

edit: but #5 is definately not included.

Somehow, when you think about it, having school or school related excuses seems more noble to me.

I mean, I am simply tired from work. Thats not really all that noble, but learning or teaching is so cool that having it as a legitimate reason takes the sting out of not being able to map.

I'd give anything to be able to go back to school. Most won't appreciate my sentiment for a few years yet, but its true. You guys make me feel so dumb sometimes that its a struggle to return afterward.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I have a busy schedule every day, consisting of:

Studying engineering
Working as a teaching and research assistant
Studying Mandarin Chinese

But every day, even though I rarely post, I take the time to read Snarkpit.

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"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

Number 6 because it's 1, 3 ad 4, girlfriend, guitar, school, band, beer :smile: you know.

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

I recently found an old disk with Deus Ex and now I'm playing it in order to reach the Hong Kong levels (my favorite SP maps ever).

Time isn't really the problem. I usually have a few-days-long mapping rush followed by a month of mapping-hibernation. That's enough to drag a big map from beta to beta or even to finish a small one (which I should try next). Often when work is the most stressful it's the easiest to enjoy mapping because you remember it's something you choose to do as a hobby and not an annoying "task" to finish or anything.

I wish more of the forum regulars would try out HL2DM mapping, I feel kinda alone. That's what usually takes away my enthusiasm for loading up Hammer. :sad:

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Why snark works.

work/guitar consumes most of my time.

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My Pit

Drawing, modeling, guitar, reading, working out, learning math, playing with electricity (electrolysis, electromagnets, generators, etc), work when I can get it, so pretty much #4 90% of the time.

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o

I've lost interest in mapping, but I never mapped much to begin with so no big loss.

Just a little thought: What's the point in trying to force new life into the Snarkpit? If you've lost interest or don't have the time, so what? If you play games/hang out with gf/work/party/whatever instead of mapping, it's probably because you value doing that more, why try forcing yourself to map?

Sure, it sucks if Snarkpit dies. I don't map but I still enjoy coming here. But what's the point in trying to force all the members that are doing things they obviously value more than mapping to come back/map more?

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What the Snarkpitters listen to!

I'm trying to finish my Senior year of high school with as good grades as possible. Which at this point means just turning in everything on time, which, by itself, is hard. I can just imagine how much fun college will be.

I'm just feeling uninspired right now. I've even been struggling with writing lately, and I can usually churn out 500 worth-while words in half an hour from sitting down.

It will take some time, but I'll eventually start mapping again. It won't even take that long, once Lent is over I'll probably be feeling a whole lot better about mapping.

I owe it to my mod to keep working.
(I haven't even started on what I said I'd do in the last update.)

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

OtZman said:
Sure, it sucks if Snarkpit dies. I don't map but I still enjoy coming here. But what's the point in trying to force all the members that are doing things they obviously value more than mapping to come back/map more?

Force just seems like to strong a word IMO. Forcing someone to wear seatbelts, thats something I imagine force would take a part of but trying to force someone to map is beyond my comprehension.

Yes, it could be said that rehashing mapping could be excessive but it seems to me that the only thing missing now days is incentive, not really a lack of not being forced.

I dunno exactly how to state my views to make it seem less of an obligation. To map isn't an obligation but sometimes it takes a lot of incentive.

My maps have substantial gaps between release dates. Thats not because I had lots of unreleased maps between them, but more a presence of mappers block. It took lots of people, with lots of enthusiasm to get me to make another each time.

I suppose it could be viewed as forcing, but I just cannot bring myself to admit that.

Sorry.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I'm quite picky when it comes to eating, and the only way that I'll eat a large meal is if I eat a little, then add some more to my plate. If you heap a huge portion onto a single plate, then it'll put me off, and I'll only eat a little. It's like the thought of having to eat it all is too much.

HL2 had the same effect on many HL1 mappers.

If, as I've said before, our current membership had nibbled a little bit now and again over the past couple of years, we'd be in a position to order dessert by now, with cherries on top.

So, if the Snarkpit is truely dying of anorexia, then the promise of tastey cakes from a new cake shop won't make much difference.

btw, I didn't vote, as there was no 'I still map' option.

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i eat paint

Orph: Maybe not forcing to map, but creating mapping incentives by force is a better way to put it. I really don't know. Even though I've been here 4 or 5 years I still see myself as a newcomer, and I've always had the feeling that Snarkpit had it's greatest days before my arrival. On top of that I've never been that into mapping, so tbh I don't know what the community looked like during it's best days, or the incentives that existed back then.

I feel like the interest in mapping in general is declining and that there is no way to turn this around, but that could also be because I don't keep my eyes open to mapping related topics/materials because I've lost interest myself.

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What the Snarkpitters listen to!

Main reason I stopped mapping is that HL2dm isnt that good a dm game.

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http://maze5.net

fishy said:
btw, I didn't vote, as there was no 'I still map' option.

"Other: please explain" didn't fill your desires Fish? Sorry, but 6 slots leaves a lot to be desired.

@Otz,

I never realized until just now what a major difference in joining dates between our memberships. I know that most of you feel that I am fixated on such but its simply not true.

There are nearly 2 full years between 8 and 77. :eek:

Seriously though, I do not judge people on their age nearly as much as the perception they give as to how old they are.

IE, Doc Rock is old, acts like a child. Cassius is or was very young and acts much older.
Anywho, I'd never consider us n00bs exactly, but I am sorely inadequate where HL2 mapping is concerned so, in that light I am green as a gourd.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

For me: HL2DM kinda sucks, mapping for CS:S is a big dead end (as I see it), and no Source mods have really caught my attention enough to make me want to make a map for them. I've recently been thinking about starting a fairly short single-player campaign, maybe...

If you feel like mapping is a forced activity for you, you should probably move on to something else. I haven't sat down an worked on a map in months, excluding the recent doors comp, but I think I've still got the mapping bug, albeit in a currently dormant state. I've definitely still got the game design bug, but these days I'm leaning more towards concept art and modeling.

Orpheus said:
"Other: please explain" didn't fill your desires Fish? Sorry, but 6 slots leaves a lot to be desired.

i thought the 'other' was meant as "other reasons for killing the snarkpit by not mapping". my mistake.

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i eat paint

fishy said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>"Other: please explain" didn't fill your desires Fish? Sorry, but 6 slots leaves a lot to be desired.

i thought the 'other' was meant as "other reasons for killing the snarkpit by not mapping". my mistake.</div></div>

Well it kinda works both ways I guess.

I reckon you could say other, because when you aren't here (which the question asked) you are mapping.
Sometimes, for threads like this, I wish we could pick how many options to have in a poll, from 1 - ?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

School and modeling. :biggrin: So it's sort of 1 and 4 together, but since I rarely have time for modeling anymore, I blame School.

I kind of agree with Fishy on his eating metaphore(don't know how to spell it. :sad: ). The problem at first with Source mapping and me was that I had dial-up connection with pay per minute taxing, so I couldn't get Source SDK. Later on I got Source SDK and started learning and came to a realization that you need to know how to model to get the really good stuff done, so I ventured down that path next. Then I came back to the Hammer and blew several fuses over all the bugs that plagued it(mainly constantly inverting displacement textures, at one point the unability of selecting anything from 3D view and the graphics bugs with models in dx9 mode(fixed since then)). I definitely haven't given up on mapping, I'm just learning the fine art of modeling first before I venture back in to the valley of darkness. :wink:

Dystopia, Empires and PVK II have gotten my attention so who knows what future will bring...

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''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

Hmmm... I can't loose the feeling that many (especially Snarkpitters) are starting to take mapping way too seriously.

I think a lot of people are "scared" of the new Hammer. All the features, high-res stuff, prop-dependence, "Lost Coast" screenshots ect.

At least I know this feeling myself. When I think of the engine's capabilities and the working-effort it seems nearly impossible. Then, one evening, after not having mapped for months, I load up Hammer and try out a map I wanted to do for some time and it works and it's fun.

I think that many unlearned to think of mapping as a "hobby".

The Source engine isn't 5 times the work, it's maybe 20% more. Or 50%. If you spend an hour here and an hour there, even with weeks of doing nothing, you can finish a map to quality. You don't have to sacrifice every minute of free time. You don't have to sacrifice anything. And if it takes a year to finish a map so be it. It's OK.

I recently found this map dm_derelict by Jacfu. It popped out of nowhere, but looking at the map I realized that there's an approach to mapping that is missing from the Source scene. The map doesn't have any gimmicks, it's pretty small in size, yet it brought back some good memories from the time when mapping was a hobby and every new map had something interesting to offer. I wish more mappers tried simpler approaches like this.

All I see are either monumental or hyper-realistic maps that try to bring the Source engine to its limits (cough cough) or killboxes. Nothing that links (wannabe-)pro mappers with the huge crowd of beginners. Maybe trying smaller and less exotic maps while focusing on gameplay and interesting layouts would be more rewarding and could bring back some of those frustrated with mapping.

But that's all the optimism I have left. Beat that, and I'm out. I still enjoy mapping here and there. It's an interesting and fun way of playing with technology, learning how interactivity and CG graphics work. I'll continue for now.

I have high hopes for the Team Fortresses (TF2 and FF). Maybe, if they fail to bring back some of the creativity of the good old times, I'll retire. Until then, I'll keep my enthusiasm.

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Why snark works.

No offence reaper, but

I can't loose the feeling that many (especially Snarkpitters) are starting to take mapping way too seriously.

Re-read your post and see that you're pretty much the main culprit here...? :razz:

Yea, you got me. :heee: I thought I'd try and start to bring in some slightly more optimistic arguments but as soon as you try to it starts to sound desperate. sigh

But as for the kind of seriousness I was referring too: I meant the qualities of the golden ages.

I think many wouldn't even bother starting a new map if they didn't know it would turn out to be super-fine and a Source-enhanced version of the HL1 perfection. Which probably won't happen. That's what I meant with seriously. You can try simple stuff with style. It's like stopping to skateboard because you've seen a Tony Hawk video.

Time isn't the only issue, I believe. I think it's just a way of saying "I don't bother". For those that really believe time is all that is holding them up, I think there's a lot of things to do with mapping. But those are probably a minority.

I dunno, I give up.

Anyone up for a discussion about religion or gay rights?

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Why snark works.

Haha, please, no...

I think you're right for the most part. Mapping is a hobby that is creative-intensive, and it takes a lot of people a lot of time to feel the right vibe before diving head-first into an idea.

It might be just me, but it seems that right about this time as I'm posting this, the mapping community here as I know it is rather apathetic. Sure we'll jump on a topic as soon as it's posted, but the problem lies: There are not a lot of topics to post about. Or none that are design/ mapping related. (Don't criticize me too harshly for that last comment :biggrin: ).

Perhaps it's just that calm before the storm when HL2: EP2, Portal, and TF2 will all be released and spark new enthusiasm for the source engine.

Anyhow, my time is spent either at school and doing homework, friends a.k.a. a life, "dreaming" about mapping, or reading these forums instead. I'll admit that my main problem is lack of motivation, but I think I'm overwhelmed like reaper47 said with monumental projects that I'm trying to work on. So it takes me that much more to get enthusiastic enough to begin, because it has to be perfect (for me). But I don't think my perceived view of the attitudes here is helping that enthusiasm.

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Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon

I am leaning the other way, at least in part.

One can map and create exactly the same theme/layout/style of maps that succeeded with HL1 with the HL2 engine. The problem is, the weaponry has altered to the point where maps of that type simply won't work.

I don't really think we all are intimidated by the new engine. I think we are chagrined to the point of not caring anymore because of its shortfalls and worse its constant need of a patch to fix an error.

My honest belief is that we could create maps without the new perks that the engine possesses, without failing if only the items would assist us in doing so.

anyway, thats by belief.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

University, Computer Sciences.

I'm a bit busy.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

Yea, I mean all those arguments are overwhelming. You're absolutely right, no doubt.

It's just a bit sad to see mapping going this way, more and more outgrowing the capabilities of the average mapper. I'll stick to it as long as there's some life left to the community.

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Why snark works.

I voted n?1 because Architecture School can be a pain in the ***
sometimes, but honestly I think it's not an excuse. If you really like
mapping, you can find more than enough time to do so. Think about the
time you spend surfing the net, reading and writing in forums, watching
TV, going to the movies etc.

The main problem for most people is just lack of motivation, not lack
of time. I'm about to abandon mapping as a hobby soon, because the
enjoyment o mapmaking is starting to fail as a reward. I would love to
do level design (or concept art) as a job. Another reason is that I
haven't played any multiplayer games for a long time besides some
sporadic HLDM match.

I'll tell'ya a small portion of my lack of incentive. This is Snarkpit ver. 4.5. The only thing that made it here from the previous versions was us, our maps and a few tutorials.

When you think about it, a very large portion of our earliest contributions to the mapping community were in the previous postings. (and I might add, when HL1 was at its peak, and so were we. )

My point, albeit a small one to most is, that people coming here since HL2 ( Our biggest increase in member signups ) have no idea whom I am.

In all seriousness, I really don't want to have to go through the hassle it took to get to where I am and there is no way they can look through versions 1-3 to find out.

Its rather depressing sometimes to think about the lost posts I made that could have helped someone.

I have forgotten more about HL1 mapping, than some now have and that bothers me sometimes. Memory loss isn't funny I can assure you.

Anyway, its not just HL2 that has me not mapping.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

It'd be a bold thing to say, but maybe gaming (not only mapping) just isn't as interesting as it was years ago.

When the jump was made from 2D to 3D engines, games (specially the
Quake series and HL+mods) motivated gamers to become mappers and enjoy
the novelty of creating 3D worlds. But we have entered a new
generation, and few things have changed. The level of detail needed in
maps has risen, but that's not usually a motivation. On the contrary,
many mappers find it a setback in comparison.

You'll still see a lot of young people (or just new to the mapping world) trying to learn the ropes of
source mapping and producing killboxes, and the effect is uglier than
before. You could keep things simple with HL1 because our expectations
weren't as high.

The FPS genre in my humble opinion is dying. Sure, you'll get prettier
graphics effects like we've seen in Crysis videos, occassional original
things from Valve and random unique settings like in the upcoming title
Bioshock. But most of the time, it's a path we have already walked
along, only with renewed pavement.

I wish more games would take us in wonderful and surreal journeys,
since technology and imagination are ever-increasing. But no. We still
get our abandoned factory and office levels.

I wish Unreals level of beauty would cross the threshold into HL.

On another note: With regards to your abandoned offices and factories...

I travel, prolly more than anyone else in level editing but the point is, I see things that would make a killer map, but there is no way in hell any engine could recreate it for the stuff in each frame.

I do occasionally post things in my Photo thread but many I just don't take pictures of because the level of detail is just phenomenal.

Sometimes though I long for the simplicity of Duke3D. It was hard to map for sometimes, especially of you forgot something vital like water and mirrors but when you were through you had a fantastic looking level that would fit comfortably on a 3.5 diskette with room to spare. AND run easily on a 486/33.

My Christmas list this year is going to include Unreal 4. I hear it will have additive mapping capabilities, and that might be enough for me to swap allegiances from HL.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I won't argue that those places would make killer maps, but those
scenes would still be "part of this world". Now I'm not saying that we
shouldn't map parts of our world (it would be hypocritical to say that
after making that Fallingwater map). What I mean is that repetition is
not good.

We have seen a lot of Source maps with factory themes and filled with
pipes. To be honest, I can't remember which scenes belonged to which
maps since the level of uniqueness was rather short. They were mostly
excellent maps technically speaking (brushwork, texturing, layout) but
missing another aspect.

For me, a map has to work as a game level (withstand multiple rounds of
multiplayer games for example) but it should also work as a one-time
architecture trip (most maps are exactly THAT, since they end up never
being played at all!).

If they can offer something interesting on just a walk around, it's
certainly a bonus. I'm one of those people who wouldn't play a very
ugly map with the excuse of its good gameplay. I consider visual input
and eye-candy a very important part of gameplay, not something
aside.

When it comes to Unreal, I think they really have the visual style of
unique worlds, but over the years they recycle themselves a lot. Even
the mix of temple+technology stops being a novelty.

I'd also like to give the Unreal Engine a try, since apparently it's
much easier to work with smaller scale objects. Sort of like making
prefabs with the level of detail of a prop model.

It'd also help working with a game without the need to compile the maps
in spans of 5 hours, which is something I hate (but understand) about
Source mapping. :sad:

Good luck with it. Even with my experience it took me a very long time to make simple things like water, and lights. Its not "OMG" hard, but to simply say its hard just doesn't do it. I have literally hundreds of printed pages of Unreal editing tutorials. Thats something I never had to do with WorldCraft.

I will be curious to see the additive procedure with U4.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

offtopic{

whispers
It's Unreal Tournament 3, not Unreal 4

And yes, it has the ability to use additive BSP, and can still use subtractive brushes which is a much easier process than building stuff out of many different brushes. You can grab RoboBlitz on steam or retail to check out the Unreal Engine 3 editor. Even though it's not feature complete compared to what UT3 will have, most things will be the pretty much the same. Occlusion is calculated from all world polygons, including meshes IIRC, and larger-scale visibility/actor cleanup/management is handled by streaming seperate levels in and out, so you can theoretically have a level the size of the grid in all directions, and have only a small portion in memory at one time.

}

i voted one, but it's really a combination of 1 3 and 4

this weekend I was out camping, got back Sunday morning, slept then worked on homework, i didn't get online last night because I had to string my tennis racket, I recently purchased Mount&Blade and have been putting some time into that

When it comes to Unreal, I think they really have the visual style of
unique worlds, but over the years they recycle themselves a lot. Even
the mix of temple+technology stops being a novelty.

That's what I've been thinking, too. I love UnrealEd (subtractive mapping), though. It's much easier to build complex rooms and faster than Hammer.

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Why snark works.

Previous versions of Unreal have had lots of nice textures (as did HL1). The set of textures that comes with HL2 covers a very narrow spectrum of environments and covers it very well. Step outside that spectrum, and you become starved for textures that 'fit'. HL2 especially lacks clean textures, everything is rusted and decaying (enter factory setting).

It's much easier to build complex rooms and faster than Hammer.

UE3 has the best of both worlds. You can build a room wall by wall or drop a big additive brush (or a series of them) and subtract the room. There's also no need to seal the void, a single additive brush, a light and a spawn point is a working level. If you're interested in mapping for UT3 or any of the myriad games using UE3 in development, pick up RoboBlitz, it's only like $15 (Editor Wiki).

I voted for no. 4 - other hobbies take up my spare time.

I spend a great deal of my time researching 9/11, posting on blogs, getting in conversations with strangers about it. I listen to many different alternative radio stations, not the main stream. Also, I visit this site quite regularly.

However, I do still map, and I also play Guild Wars and Final Fantasy Online when I have some spare time. I only come on the SnarkPit at work, and not often at all.

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Condemnation without Investigation is the Highest Form of Ignorance!

When I am not on snarkpit, i'm either on bungie.net, playing Halo games, at school or working on my mad-as mod (reddawn). :dodgy:

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Aaron's Stuff