Eyyy Saddam

lol i wouldnt dare.. that might be enough to get gollum in on this thread!

I dont disagree that Americas intervention helped end both conflicts quickly, but read and understand.

AMERICA WAS NOT THE SOLE VICTORY FACTOR IN EITHER CONFLICT. EVERYTHING IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

You seem to have missed my point entirely :/

WW1 - war weariness, lack of soldiers, lack of support for the war, lines becoming closer and closer to home, losing battles than winning, political unrest, viruses and starvation ravaging Germany. I have studied these periods for four years, trust me.

WW2 - overstretched, internal wrangling in the Nazi leadership, mismanagement of the military and bad tactics, defeat at the hands of the Russians and the Red Army, resistance movements, mismanagement of the economy and production.

Britain was still fighting the Germans in many places, and had held off the Luftwaffe (a considerable achievement when you place the RAF size next to the Luftwaffe) and was fighting on. The Germans were going downhill from 1940 onward in a sense, long before America came and fought the war on the continents actively - remember, it was concerned with its Pacific campaign.

So sorry, no, you are wrong. America DID NOT win either war or was the sole cause for Germanys defeat. The truth and history is there, acknowledge it.

And yes this is all completely off topic but ignorance and misinformation is a pet hate of mine :/

quick! lock it! before the thread leeads to another 'freedom' debate

ya know what?....im STILL a happy son of a bitch today ....and not a f**king thing any of you assholes on both sides can say will dissuade me from my merriment....the ole girl and myself cracked open a bottle of wine (first in many a moon) sent the youngest off to grandmas for the night, and we are gonna celebrate like dogs in heat, if you get my drift :heee: , and revel in the fact that my boy is gonna be ok, God willing....top that s**t f**kers....w00t! i am in entirely too good a mood to let this get to me....but ya know i wanna pipe in.... :wink:

booyah!!!

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

btw....happy HAPPY holidays! to ALL my buds at the "Pit" :heee:

i studied a bit of WW2 and gwil has the gist of it, albeit, colored to a bit of British flag waving. its all hypothetical really, but had japan not pulled that stunt in Hawaii, i am inclined to believe Britain would have lost in the end.

i will stay out of this one, its all yours guys.

They didn't win it but they sure made it a hell of a lot easier for us :smile: We'd have got there in the end... maybe (way to many what ifs to consider here) but it would have been a bloody long time if we did. Anyway i'm sure thats been said by Gwil at least twice but hey it's 1:40am, what do you want? :biggrin: Actually don't answer that question. :razz:

Gwil said:
I dont disagree that Americas intervention helped end both conflicts quickly, but read and understand.

AMERICA WAS NOT THE SOLE VICTORY FACTOR IN EITHER CONFLICT. EVERYTHING IS NOT BLACK AND WHITE.

You seem to have missed my point entirely :/

WW1 - war weariness, lack of soldiers, lack of support for the war, lines becoming closer and closer to home, losing battles than winning, political unrest, viruses and starvation ravaging Germany. I have studied these periods for four years, trust me.

WW2 - overstretched, internal wrangling in the Nazi leadership, mismanagement of the military and bad tactics, defeat at the hands of the Russians and the Red Army, resistance movements, mismanagement of the economy and production.

Britain was still fighting the Germans in many places, and had held off the Luftwaffe (a considerable achievement when you place the RAF size next to the Luftwaffe) and was fighting on. The Germans were going downhill from 1940 onward in a sense, long before America came and fought the war on the continents actively - remember, it was concerned with its Pacific campaign.

So sorry, no, you are wrong. America DID NOT win either war or was the sole cause for Germanys defeat. The truth and history is there, acknowledge it.

Bow down to America, you know we're the only reason everything good in the world happens. :rolleyes: :biggrin:

I think you mean -

"Bow down to Wales", son.

:P Orph, I try not to British flag wave too much, as I totally dislike the place, particuarly the English :razz:

Just as a side note to this thread, one thing that shouldnt have happened (IMO) was showing footage of Saddam on TV. Sure, photos to prove it are ok, but videoing (i know hes not covered by Geneva as hes not quite technically a POW) is just the thing the coalition got angry about when the Iraqis did it :sad:

Gwil said:
I think you mean -

"Bow down to Wales", son.

:P Orph, I try not to British flag wave too much, as I totally dislike the place, particuarly the English :razz:

Just as a side note to this thread, one thing that shouldnt have happened (IMO) was showing footage of Saddam on TV. Sure, photos to prove it are ok, but videoing (i know hes not covered by Geneva as hes not quite technically a POW) is just the thing the coalition got angry about when the Iraqis did it :sad:

son? We're almost the same age I thought... besides, if there's an area of Britain we should support, it's gotta be Scotland. mmm haggis

son, figure of speech soft lad :razz: arf

And btw haggis tastes like ass!

You musta been eating some choice ass then my friend, as haggis really isn't bad whatsoever. I reckon that if you know what it is before you eat it, it ruins the taste. I've eaten it since I was just a wee kid, and found out it was leftover innards way after my first time :smile:

I've had nice haggis once, with swede, on a "Burns night" many many moons ago, it was delicious :biggrin: Other than that, I think i've had fairly low grade haggis :/

nothing worse than half-assed haggis i guess

Bow down to America, you know we're the only reason everything good in the world happens.

LOL go yak

Wow, another post about America goes to another post about American political corruption goes to a discussion about World f**king War Two goes to Yak singlehandedly owning every Brit in the house... does anybody else see a motherf**king pattern? Because I do, and I think at around this point it dives straight into human polarizing/stereotyping reactions and how only Americans are effected by it.

Thus, I have a few points to make:

• World War Two has about 0 relevancy to this, please do not going to talk about 'what if's, because every time everyone has a discussion about 'what if such and such had happened' it usually degenerates to the point that 'oh wait, this meant jack s**t the entire time because we're not even talking about real provable events.'

• 'You must have been eating some choice ass' is hands down one of the funniest things I have ever heard.

• The point of the discussion was Mr. Saddam Hussein, who has quite enough proven destruction under his belt to have been shot on the spot; and I daresay that most people, probably even people here, would do that if given the opportunity to do so.

• This thread is a grade A specimen of any debate that occurs when there is a massive liberal majority against some very, very strong conservatives (whom I would be glad to join ranks with, should this persist).

[EDIT]OMGOMGOGMOGMGG MY AVATAR IS BACK YAY!!!!!!!111 oneoeneoenene[/EDIT]

Cassius said:

• World War Two has about 0 relevancy to this.

I have to dissagree with that.

Ignorance of history is the number one cause of future mistakes. historical discussion is a prime way of understanding the present day.

i remember seeing a poster of that in my world history class... only it said

"Those who don't understand history, are doomed to repeat it."

It's not so much that which I complain about - it's that any Brit/American argument instantly snaps back to WW1/WW2. It's basically a thought process of, "ok, so we can't even agree on any solid facts of contemporary history, let's go back to WW2 because that way we can just crack open The Rise and Fall and instantly, our arguments become indisputable!"

"historical discussion is a prime way of understanding the present day."

I would agree, if it were not being used as a method of diverting the discussion from the present day.

[EDIT] I have created this picture to celebrate:

[/EDIT]

wtf is it with you guys these days??....jesus h. christ almighty....believe it or not, we are on the same f**king side, and it frosts my ass that the arguments are so petty that we resort to this crap.....i get just as pissed as anyone at injustice and people who are wronged...but this thread is abso-f**king-lutely rediculous....yer arguing about s**t that happened 50+ f**king years ago... the only relevance IS the fact that if we DONT learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.....and if the ole USA is so bad, followed by the ole UK, then move yer narrow minded asses to f**king ruwanda or some other s**thole to get a feel for what the rest of these po' bastards have to deal with....as countrys, we ALL have faults, we ALL have skeletons in our closets, and we ALL know it....maybe living there would give you a REAL perspective as to how god damn good we free peoples ALL OVER THE WORLD really have it....and maybe youll understand why ignorance is NOT bliss....jesus....appreciate what we have, live for it, relish it, and deal with the fact that it aint all wine and roses....maybe some day itll be different, i really hope so, for my kids sakes.....which incidentally are about the same ages as most of you.....grow the f**k up, and get a god damn clue....

and im STILL in a f**king fantastic mood.... :heee:

Dr f**king Brasso...f**kin :dodgy:

ps....love the pic Cass....he looks like a crackhead down on 24th street...

In reply to Cassius

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mazemaster said:
In reply to Cassius

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they have a way of removing that "red-eye" mazeman.. ask your local wal-mart photo developing personnel.

you know, i wish fraggard was here, to tell us all the horror stories on how the UK went to india and ruined their society, maybe it would shed some light on how most of them know we are ruining iraq's, it seems the similarities are more pronounced than the non-similarities here.

didn't they too, go to a 4th world country and charging in on their white horses (literally i think due to when it occurred) and show india the error of their ways?

anywho's i think if you combined the wisdom of cassius's words with the basic truth of brasso's you really get a broad picture of all this.

snarkpit, for all its good, definitely has 2 views in almost every political thread, can't we all just post our replies without resorting to "my daddy's bigger than your daddy" :sad:

i feel like i am back at school listening to how i am trash, because my parents shop at wal-marts for all my clothes.

My daddy is big.... no wait... were not meant to do that? DAMN! runs away

had japan not pulled that stunt in Hawaii, i am inclined to believe Britain would have lost in the end

How does that work? Surely if the US didn't have such a big problem in the pacific, they would have been able to give even more help to us in the UK... Meaning we would have been more likely not less likely to 'win'?

Cass... where did you get such a loud mouth man? Are you so overly aggressive in reality? Are you on steroids or something?

Orpheus said:
you know, i wish fraggard was here, to tell us all the horror stories on how the UK went to india and ruined their society, maybe it would shed some light on how most of them know we are ruining iraq's, it seems the similarities are more pronounced than the non-similarities here.

The British conquest in India had nothing to do with terrorists. It was just pure colonizing (If that's a word).

So, Orph, if you do see similarities, don't you think it seems that the USA (Edit: Coalition, to be politically correct) is trying to colonize Iraq?

All said and done, I'm happy Saddam was caught. What remains to be seen is whether the coalition will pull out of iraq now.

Gwil said:
I think you mean -

"Bow down to Wales", son.

:P Orph, I try not to British flag wave too much, as I totally dislike the place, particuarly the English :razz:

Just as a side note to this thread, one thing that shouldnt have happened (IMO) was showing footage of Saddam on TV. Sure, photos to prove it are ok, but videoing (i know hes not covered by Geneva as hes not quite technically a POW) is just the thing the coalition got angry about when the Iraqis did it :sad:

Bloody feral natives, I think you need conquering again to bring you back civilisation :rolleyes: If it wasn't for us you Americans wouldn't even exist! And no mentioning the french/romans/vikings :biggrin:

scary_jeff said:

had japan not pulled that stunt in Hawaii, i am inclined to believe Britain would have lost in the end

How does that work? Surely if the US didn't have such a big problem in the pacific, they would have been able to give even more help to us in the UK... Meaning we would have been more likely not less likely to 'win'?

actually jeff, as i said, i to have done a bit of research, there are many conspiracy theories running amok now that claim that the US was set up to enter the war.

most US residents were still in the throes of the depression, yes the war had a positive reaction to that depression, but many normal people could never fathom that from a household perspective.

all they saw was, the war was a long ways off and had nothing to do with them at all, the day-to-day drudgery was enuff for them.

had japan not pulled that stunt, america would IMO have waited to long to enter the war, the UK would have fallen and its resources added to the chaos that was know as the german army.

since as cass states, this is ALL hypothetical, and unprovable, it is essentially moot.

the UK had fought bravely, and valiantly, but it was indeed on its last leg, months, no more and it would have ended in 1942 for you.

fraggard said:

Orpheus said:
you know, i wish fraggard was here, to tell us all the horror stories on how the UK went to india and ruined their society, maybe it would shed some light on how most of them know we are ruining iraq's, it seems the similarities are more pronounced than the non-similarities here.

The British conquest in India had nothing to do with terrorists. It was just pure colonizing (If that's a word).

So, Orph, if you do see similarities, don't you think it seems that the USA (Edit: Coalition, to be politically correct) is trying to colonize Iraq?

All said and done, I'm happy Saddam was caught. What remains to be seen is whether the coalition will pull out of iraq now.

colonization is indeed a word, but it was not the one i was searching for, nor exactly was terrorism either, altho IMO colonization of a land fully peopled and able to do its own job would be a sort of terrorism, being that your lifestyle was seriously altered at that point.

what we did over here to the indians (ours not yours :biggrin: ) is a prime example as well.

still remove the word terrorism and you have colonization on a grand scale.

what we did to iraq, will seriously alter their lives, we are introducing our own way of doing things, i think we will eventually pull out, but never completely, and in essence we set up shop there as well.

without the word terrorism, which incidentally, was a small portion of the whole picture, the catalyst only, all you had left was a people subjugated by its own ruling class.. anyways, i see it as similar, but since you live in india, and do not, i guess i will bow to your knowledge, you of all people would know, more than my stupid ass..

thanx for clarifying it fragman.

OK, so the bugger has been caught...but are we any better than him?

Did we not criticise his methods (i.e. showing videos of captured soldiers etc), only to be doing the same ourselves by televising his incarceration?

Don't get me wrong, i'm pleased we caught him and all, but the handling of the situation is all wrong IMO



And regarding WWII, would America have fought beside us if the Japanese hadn't bombed Pearl Harbour (this is not a criticism of America and it's values, just a hypothetical question).

I wont say anything about the morality of Iraq, all i can say now is its a good thing saddam got caught. You cant really judge this at the moment, its in the middle of the whole thing. Wait for the coalition to pull out, then make judgements.

On WWII (something i CAN talk about) I personally think that had the Japs not bombed pearl harbor, the US would not have entered the war as early as it did. The UK would have fallen, Germany would have complete control over Europe. Then, with the west taken care of, it would have turned its attention to the Soviets. Barbarossa might have succeded, if the germans didnt overextend themselves by trying to fight the british, americans and russians simultaneously. If it was just germany vs. russia, its quite possible that russia would have fallen (esp. since germany had control of britain & its resources). Germany would have complete control over europe and possibly most of asia if it werent for the US entering europe so early in the war.

Not that im extremely pro-US, but without their military strength, all these ppl from the UK would be speaking German, and all us Aussies would be speaking Japanese. It boggles the mind!

And (wow, this is getting long) were not considering what may have been happening in the Japanese region around then. Stalin had alot of his forces in Siberia, in case the Japs attacked there. What if Japan had attacked Russia instead of the US? What if there was a coordinated attack by Germany and Japan? Surely, then, Russia would have fallen. Then China, and soon youve got the entire Asian continent full of axis troops. By then, England would have fallen (since the US wouldnt have helped, pearl harbor hasnt been bombed remember) and then they would have the resources of 2 continents at their disposal. The main problem with the German and Japanese armies was their lack of fuel, they would not only have 2 continents, but also the power to march straight into Africa and get at the oil there. So, the great German/Japanese alliance controls 3 continents. This would give them a huge advantage over any other country. This is, of course, a worst case scenario, with absolutely no US intervention (besides a few dontations to britain maybe).

I'd better stop typing now. Wow, cant beleive you read all that. Hey, that scenario would make a great dod map :biggrin:

You know it seems to me that, imho, The US played a big part in wwII, And in regards to the Britain + USA Relationship, how exactly would the USA have had any sort of influence on Europe without Britain? Our geography was a major factor, THerefore, without Britain, USA were essentially all stocked up with no where to go..., and without the USA the Brits were ready to go with nothing to fire. And you cannot deny the importance of the RAF in gaining air superiority over the channel, that was probably in my estimation the single most important thing that allowed the USA to exert it's influence over europe.

We may as well accept that without the USA, we would either be talking english, but next door to the United States of Germany, or speaking German. And the USA would still be in it's own litttle world.

And also that the Americans couldn't have done anything without the help of the British (In europe that is, not the Pacific).

In my opinion, politically, we should snub Europe, and Join into some sort of treaty with America (I know about NATO, i,m talking I would rather take on the dollar, rather than the Euro.) It just seems it would be a lot easier because it's the way the World will probably go anyway, the Dollar is for all intense purposes the single world currency anyway.

Cassius, Orph - I argued the point about WWII because what was said was wrong, incorrect. Plain and simple.

Please, dont call me a Brit, I am not British and shall never count myself as such.

"Not that im extremely pro-US, but without their military strength, all these ppl from the UK would be speaking German, and all us Aussies would be speaking Japanese. It boggles the mind!"

And then you say Germany could have taken Russia. You seem to forget the Germans were preoccupied with vehement anti-Communism, and therefore decided to open two fronts. This is what made them fail. Also, the Germans didn't have the resources to mount a full scale invasion of the UK, if you look at the transportation available to them.

You seem to have created a lot of scenarios, wil5on, which didn't happen. And they wouldn't have happened, because of the constraints on the nations who would have undertook these fantasies.

I object to people stating "history" as fact, when more often than not they do not know what they are talking about. It's not like I go around lecturing people on Java or computer hardware, because I am not sufficiently learned in that area...

Gwil said:
Cassius, Orph - I argued the point about WWII because what was said was wrong, incorrect. Plain and simple.

gwil, don't you think "I" know that :razz: i was thinking it was bullpockey too.

i may act stupid, i may call myself so, but in actuality, i am not totally stupid.

notice, my comments were mostly directed at Jeffery, not because i relish it, but i had to do so to someone, and he seemed up to it :smile:

i attempted to remain as neutral as possible, BECAUSE most of what i said was unprovable, and hence, MOOT.

my apologies if i upset you sir..

that's cool Orph, I just don't like to be associated with Britain, England and paticuarly Mr Blair or most of the previous Governments :razz:

you say that, as if a day will come to where we like or government :smile:

That's when i'll be in charge, Orph :razz: Leading some kind of global utopia, no doubt.

Gwil said:
that's cool Orph, I just don't like to be associated with Britain, England and paticuarly Mr Blair or most of the previous Governments :razz:

At least we actually have a government :razz: Ooh look at us, we have an assembley, it has the power to.. spend the money the UK government gives it.. and.. er.. yeah!

I hate the Welsh so much, more so than the Irish. Thankfully there are only 3 million of you :biggrin:

ARGH!!! Gwil you have 311 snarkmarks, everywhere I look I see that damned number, its getting really bloody freaky! Guess I must listen to the band too much :sad:

I like the scottish & some of the irish, Never really talked to a welshman before. Problem is, Everyone hates the english.

/me mumbles.

ok....im back, im hung over, and im ready for a fight.....lets go....****stands ready for fisticuffs....whos first?? :heee:

duncan....didnt know you were a 311 fan....they are from my home, omaha....the drummer is the nephew of the guy i buy alot of musical equipment from, joe voda...i remember quite well when these guys couldnt get a paying gig to save their asses... shared a stage with them a few times....not bad players....they were a bit disorganized back then, but they certainly got their s**t together.... i dont really care much for them, "down" is the only tune i really like alot.....

so much for a fight....

Doc B.... :dodgy:

Seems to be a real vendetta against the welsh, is it cos we whipped your butt in the Rugby Quarters and only SuperJonny had any balls(Both figuratively and literally it seems) to score....

oh lol.

Wow brasso, I'm impressed! You are right that their early stuff was kinda...unimpressive, but they really have come a long way. Heard any of their new stuff? I don't really know what sorta music your into but they are pretty varied, much of their new stuff is really mellow and tuneful, as opposed to their older "hip hop" style. Have a listen to "Don't Dwell" or "Crack the Code" if you have the time. Or if you fancy some slightly heavier stuff (and I mean slightly, they really ain't a heavy band as you know!) try out "Creatures (for a while)". The new album didn't impress me too much at first but its grown on me a lot, its one of their best.

War, huh, yeah. What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing, say it again! OKAY!

All I know is that I don't have the proper drugs to get the full effect of their "Transistor" CD. That is one trippy album, but I do so love "Beautiful Disaster."

"From Chaos" is ranked up there on my top 20 CD's though, prolly.

LOL, very true Monqui, its a bit of an odd album, some great tunes but the majority are a little TOO alternative for my tastes, and most peoples I think. It definately stands out as the worst of the albums in my opinion, other than their demo EP thingy "Omaha Sessions", which I've only heard a few tunes from but sounds quite crappy.

Leperous said:
wonder what happens now

Maybe they'll execute him...



... or maybe just...

Leperous said:
wonder what happens now

Maybe they'll execute him...



... or maybe just...

Leperous said:
wonder what happens now

Maybe they'll execute him...



... or maybe just...

Strike three! Yer out!