I don't believe in God

OK. I originally posted this long reply in gwil's thread but moved it out of respect for his desire to keep the discussion and debate out of his thread. Anyway, Nickelplate asked me why I don't believe in God, and this is my longwinded attempt to explain myself. A lot of this reply is me voicing my thoughts for the first time, so with that in mind please forgive the roughness and disorganization of my arguments.

His question:

<SPAN style="COLOR: white">

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Addicted to Morphine</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I'm not religious and I highly doubt there is a God.
</DIV></DIV>

Mind if I ask why? It's interesting to me.

</DIV></DIV>

My reply:

</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: white">Well, after posting that last night I talked about it with Crono for a little bit. I guess, I wouldn't truly rule out the possibility that the universe was created by some sort of intelligent, powerful ... thing, but right now I believe the universe was created through natural occurances (unlikely as they may be), evolution and changes and rebalancing over millions of years, as opposed to just some long haired caucasian.

I guess another part of it is I have a hard time truly believing something that I haven't experienced. For example, I don't believe in ghosts, and pretty much for the same reasons I don't believe in God. People are convinced they exist, but until I come face to face with something that I can't explain.... I just wont believe it.

The thing is, I also come from a comfortable background, from a happy family and a happy life. If my life was a lot worse I'd probably need the idea of an afterlife and an eternal paradise to make me feel better about my current life. I'm lucky in that I don't need the idea of heaven to help me through my day.

Also -- there are so many terrible things that have happened to people in the history of this planet that I can't imagine there is a God, or at least one that's sentient and cares at all about the average person. This is kind of minor point in the scheme of my disbelief.

I'm aware of Pascal's Wager but while he believed you had nothing to lose and everything to possibly gain, I feel like commiting myself to the restrictions of organized religion would in many ways diminish or hurt the experiences I could have in this life. For those of you who don't know about Pascal's Wager and don't feel like reading the link, in an attempt to get his friends to become religious, he proposed that believing vs non-believing was just a case of a simple wager, or gamble. If you believe in God and it turns out there isn't one, it doesn't matter since you're dead and no longer exist. If you believe in God and there is one, then you have gained eternal paradise, and that, in his mind was the possibility of infinite rewards that should not be passed up.

I understand that most people aren't as cynical or calculated about believing in God as Pascal seems to me. I'd say most people aren't religious because they're banking on passing go and collecting eternal happiness in heaven, but rather religion is an important part of their everyday life. It comforts them, guides them, etc. My parents took me to church for 3 years. We stopped going and I never felt a void in my life. Religion and faith is just not something that I feel like I'm missing in my everyday life.

Nickel, I'm sorry this was so long. I've never really sat down like this and tried to outline exactly why I feel the way I do, so this has been somewhat rambly and stream of consciousness. Ultimately, I just don't believe in God because after 21 years of life, all the experiences I've had and all the studying I've done, it seems very unlikely to me that there was a sentient being who created everything according to a plan. I see chaos around me, I don't see order. I don't even see ordered chaos. I especially can't imagine that God made us in His image (this idea strikes me as arrogant). It seems like these types of things are just ways for human beings to feel better and safer in their day to day lives. Like I said before, I'm lucky enough to feel good and safe without religion, so it doesn't call to me in the same ways it might call to someone else.

If I die and get sent to hell, I will be unpleasantly surprised. But even so, I'm not willing to be religious just to be on the safe side. If this life is all we have, I'm not going to spend a good chunk of my time trying to devote myself to something I don't even know exists.

Nickel, I know you use religion as your moral compass, and I highly respect that. Personally, I feel like my parents instilled in me a strong sense of right and wrong, and while I may "sin" on occasion, I feel like on the whole I'm a decent human being with respect for all the important things in life. In this sense, adopting religion would not fundamentally change my life.

Wow this has been really long. I've enjoyed thinking about this and typing it all out. If you see flaws in my thinking, please don't hesitate to point them out---I have a feeling you'll be glad to :smile: </SPAN>

Edit: Oh, and this isn't purely a conversation between me and Nickel. If it were PMs would have sufficed. If anyone has any thoughts, or wants to chime in feel free. I really want to know what other people think about my own conclusions/thoughts.

I dont believe in God also. That is too long to read, but, yeah, I have many reasons of my own.

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'The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.' - Somerset Maugham

Hmm I don't know what this thread will lead to (I see angry people and closed topics). :rolleyes:

Anyway, I feel similar about the topic. My parents left the church before I was born but I too never felt the "void" that many religious people see in the abscence of god. The idea of being a part of this world, living one of the few lifes in this universe, is powerful enough for me.

Once I realized what religion means to other people I thought about it alot. What irritates me the most is that there are so many, so different religions. Why should any of them be the "right" one for me? Why should it be more right than living a good life as an atheist? I never found an answer to that question.

And then, at the same time, I see all the negative aspects of fanatism which are so tightly connected to religion. I would have said "were" a few years ago but with Islamic extremism on the one side and Christian militarism on the other I see the concept of heaven used for political propaganda today. It is not even a hundered years ago that the church had major political power in many European countries. And every few days I read an article about a bishop or priest talking about very political issues as it was his job to do so. I do not like the idea of religion, especially the Catholic church, becoming more powerful than it already is. If the number of people leaving the church wouldn't rise so drastically, the church would be much more aggressive when it comes to political discussions. I do not see why a single organisation should have that much political (or "moral" which in many cases is the same) power over people. The idea of following a view that must not be questioned (the whole concept of "believing") is scary to me. And religion, as it becomes more powerful, is just that.

Alright, that's why I don't believe in god and never considered to change my views.

I'm led to believe that when people think of the Church's political
power hundreds of years ago, they think of it as some sort of evil
figure head; you're half right -- the church was not about gaining political power, but due to "changes"
(changes that weren't nessasarily for the better, and they're bit
deep) in the church, that came about. I think now adays, it is
generally considered corruption with what went on back then.

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Too many relegion threads.

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'The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.' - Somerset Maugham

Too many relegion threads.

Yeah, that'll fix it.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

I'm led to believe that when people think of the Church's political
power hundreds of years ago, they think of it as some sort of evil
figure head; you're half right -- the church was not about gaining political power, but due to "changes"
(changes that weren't nessasarily for the better, and they're bit
deep) in the church, that came about. I think now adays, it is
generally considered corruption with what went on back then.

Catholicism is a very hierarchical organization. Look at the pope today, he is glorified like a king, like an emperor. Still today he is considered a powerfull figure.

The priest of the church next to our house is a friendly person. But when it comes to a very political decision (we have a quarrel about the place in front of our house which is connected with the church) he becomes a politician. It goes almost instantly. One second he's joking about the weather, the other he's in a discussion with the mayor and the local newspapers. The same goes for things like abortion or - yes - condoms.

One of the main reasons I'm critical towards the Church is that it tends to pretend to be a solely spiritual movement, while in reality it can quickly become deeply politic - even today!

Too many relegion threads.

Yeah, that'll fix it.

Simplicity is the ultimate solution :smile:

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'The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.' - Somerset Maugham

Simplicity is the ultimate solution :smile:

Bulls**t. What about FAT or LFS?

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Ok, I'll try to lay out the reasons I believe in God.

Ever since I took that first step, and accepted Jesus into my life, my life has been drastically changed. I can't imagine not having someone like Him to back me up, even when I run away, stop praying, stop living for Him, I can always go back, and he forgives and wipes it away. It's a great feeling to know, that no matter what I do, in the end, I can feel forgiven, and can start again.

It's true that your can't prove or disprove God's existance. However you can see the changes he has made in me. I know that because of him, I am a better person, not because I read a book. I try to say this in the most non-arrogant way possible.

I also believe that God does make sence when you look at it from a different angle. The world today, and the chaos that exists, is of mankinds own making. So why does God, with all the power he wields, not stop it? Because he gave us the gift of free will. Is it truely free will if he stopped us from distroying ourselves? No, it would not and he will not take that gift away, in any sence, because it would distroy what he created humanity to be.

He also doesn't want people to believe in him because of evidence. And, even if there was evidence of his existence, I believe it wouldn't change anything. Even if he wrote his name in the sky or something, people would still go against him, because they want to do everything their own way. Also God wants faith, not believe just so one can get to heaven. He will only accept faith in the end.

That's why (from what I think) he had to create the plan of salvation. In order to change a person's life, God needs them to lay down their will voluntarily. Dying on the cross both serves as a way to prove that he really does love us, and give a way for us to come to him.

So, why is sin so bad. It's a human choice to go against God, and his values. Sin creates a barrier between us and him. The only way to get through it is to allow God come into your life and change you. Why? Well, once you make a choice to align with God, he swipes your slate clean, and that sin is forgotten. That barrier is gone, and because you have that link, all it takes is for you to confess your sins to God, and bam, he swipes the slate clean again.

What I hate, is how over time, Christianity has been exploited and changed into things it is not. I point to the Catholic Church as an example. The moment it became what "I" had to do to get to heaven, it stopped being truely christianity. And it went downhill from there.

I tried to explain why I believe as best as I could, but I'm not too very good at it, especially when all I can do is type. I would like to say, that these ideas that I expressed are mine alone, I didn't get this from a pastor or anything. I may be wrong about somethings, but I know, from the changes that God has made in me, that he really does exist. This feeling of backup and forgiveness is not a temporary thing that goes away, I have always felt that God was there, even in some of my hardest times.

I also hope you don't see this as an attempt to convert. I would never dream of trying to pressure anyone to come to God. You choice of wiether to follow him is between you and him alone.

Thanks for those who take the time to read all this.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

Doctor Cheese, while I welcome you to the forums and urge you to get
involved, I feel that having only posted 14 times you aren't in much of
a position to criticise the forum dynamic.

By all means posts a for/against argument, but if you have nothing of
substance to contribute to a debate/discussion, don't bother
criticising the merits of one being present.

<span style="color: white;">I read your whole reply Dark, and I appreciate you sharing all your thoughts. A lot of what you said makes sense to me, but I still strongly doubt the existence of God. What I want to know is how does one believe so strongly in something they can't prove? I don't think I could ever truly believe in something like God because of the ambiguity and uncertainty. Is there a feeling that you get, a feeling of communion with something higher that helps you validate your faith? I mean that question seriously. I'm curious.
</span>

I love it when people say "Jesus didn't exist" for anti-religion arguments. Cracks me up every time.

Also, I posted a big reply to this, but I lost it (damn site). It
wasn't an explanation of beliefs - I don't believe in God because not
even 3, possibly 4 generations back has either side of my family been
practicing Christians, probably not even Christened. Science provides
rational explanations for most things, and morals were already hard
grained into our families, particularly my parents, so I get my compass
from them.

I have no time for people trying to actively disprove the existence of
God or Gods however, nor do I have time for "faith bashing" or
stereotyping about idiocy/fanaticism/brainwashing etc.

gwil said:
I love it when people say "Jesus didn't exist" for anti-religion arguments. Cracks me up every time.

I have no time for people trying to actively disprove the existence of
God or Gods however, nor do I have time for "faith bashing" or
stereotyping about idiocy/fanaticism/brainwashing etc.

Did I accidentally stray into any of these three?

No :razz:

I'm just saying it, because I know the way these things can go. I know it won't be from you either.

I keep having a thought that drives me up the wall. The ancient greeks,
for example, were afraid to badmouth their gods or to doubt their
existence. But today we all know they're just legends. I'm starting to
think the same thing goes for God. If anything, God is only a character
created by people in a dark period of history to give them comfort.
Heck, maybe he was a propaganda tool.

@Morphine

Yeah, It is kinda a feeling I get. I know he exists, and wish sometimes I could prove it, but I cannot. I see all the time how God brings we to situations that allow me to gain a better relationship and understanding of him.

Prayer is my strongest link with him. I have seen him answer my prayers time and time again. One time, my family was traveling to see my grandparents and we ran out of coolent and the engine outheated. After a while of frustration we sat down together and prayed that we could somehow get back on our way. Five minutes later, a truck stops by us, and the driver kindly offers some water he had in his trunk to help us get to the nearest gas station. I know some may say that is the "luck of the draw" but I feel it is too consistant to be anything else besides God.

@Andrei
I'm not sure what it is that gets certain people to believe that God is something for primative people. Why do you feel this way? I'm simply curious. :smile:

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

I don't know. There's so many contradictions. If there is some sort of "God", then I doubt it's anything near what people commonly refer to as "God". There's just too many blatant contradictions! Also, the assumption that this "God" is responsible for everything is a little obscure, to say the least.

If there is a God, who says it's anything we can conceive? I would imagine if there's a being of ultimate ability, that would be the case, it is so foreign we wouldn't even recognize it as anything in particular.

I have a question ... if you believe in the "gift of free will", how can you possibly say God made that trucker stop and give you water!? Are you assuming the trucker just appeared for that act? Or is it an actual person who had the power of persuasion put over them? In that case, isn't that violating the whole free will thing? And if that IS the case, what else do we think is absolute that in all actuality isn't?

These are the contradictions I'm talking about. There's too much assumption going on with certain aspects of faith ... just because something good happens to you ... how does that infer that God specifically meant something good to happen to you? Was there a chain of specific events that led to that trucker to give you water? Did they have their life for that specific purpose!?

I hope you can see why I'm confused beyond all s**t with that concept. I'd like to believe there's something else out there, but the there's so many plot holes.

By the way, I'm not going to try to explain my beliefs at any point, as they are beliefs, and I'm definitely not agnostic, since I do lean a certain way. But I am far from atheistic. My questions and comments are purely observational and objective!

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Crono,
Hmm... interesting case.

As for contradictions, I expressed my ideas on why I think god did what he did, I could be wrong. I think God does influence a little bit, but not enough that the person can't decide to ignore the call.

I don't know his position with God, it's possible that he is saved like me, or may just be a kind soul that felt the call and decided to obey. In either case, he didn't make the trucker do anything, and I believe he would have answered our prayer by another means if the trucker had gone on his way.

I do agree that he is nothing we can percieve. We cannot see nor hear him. We can only see what he does, and the changes he makes in us.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

My eyes hurt from way to much driving so, I will give a more pertinent reply after I rest and can read this thread more carefully.

As far as my viewpoint:

I neither believe, nor disbelieve in God. I am not positive if thats a true definition of Agnostic but thats my belief. In my view, religion has evolved but little from its inception. Man has, or seems to really want to advance it much because to do so, might eliminate the "Omnipresence" from it.

The way I see it however is, religion was originally intended to be a good thing. As with all good ideas, man has an insatiable desire to corrupt it. I haven't the numbers but I would imagine that at least as many people have been harmed by religious views/actions as has been helped. Its like seat belts, as many people are killed by using them as are saved, but if it saves just one person, its still viewed as a safety option.

Since I do not really care one way or the other if there is a God or not, I am not bothered by either viewpoint whenever someone goes off on either tangent. The way I see it is if it prevents just one person from doing harm then religion has served its purpose. Thats the main reason that I do not actively show disdain for the idea of religion.

I do have negative thoughts about it, but its more directed at the people involved than actual religious lore.

So, there you have it. I am on the high middle ground.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Catholicism is a very hierarchical organization. Look at
the pope today, he is glorified like a king, like an emperor. Still
today he is considered a powerfull figure.

The priest of the
church next to our house is a friendly person. But when it comes to a
very political decision (we have a quarrel about the place in front of
our house which is connected with the church) he becomes a politician.
It goes almost instantly. One second he's joking about the weather, the
other he's in a discussion with the mayor and the local newspapers. The
same goes for things like abortion or - yes - condoms.

One of
the main reasons I'm critical towards the Church is that it tends to
pretend to be a solely spiritual movement, while in reality it can
quickly become deeply politic - even today!

I really don't pay attention to the news, but I have'nt heard anything
about Pope Benedict having a political agenda to deal with -- maybe
there is, maybe there isn't; I honestly don't know. As far
as condoms and abortion goes; ever heard of the commandments "Thou shou
not commit adultery" or "Thou shall not commit murder"? :razz:

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

I love it when people say "Jesus didn't exist" for anti-religion arguments. Cracks me up every time.

Haven't heared that one but it sounds like yet another conspiracy theoriy (and I certainly don't believe in them :wink: )

I'm not sure what it is that gets certain people to believe that God is something for primative people. Why do you feel this way? I'm simply curious. :smile:

I don't think it's about "primitivity" at all but maybe about scientific knowledge. My understanding of the world is a rather scientific, rational one and there the purpose of religion as an explaination for the seemingly unexplainable is a very logical assumption.

The question is wheter or not the need for an explaination was strong enough to "create" the idea of God like it exists today. This is just a question that many atheists ask themselves. Personally, I do think that the desire to understand this world or to have someone who knows and anderstands you is big enough to come up with the idea of God. I think the human brain is capable of making this up. I think it's no coincidence that God is described to look like us. Yes, there is a theoretical chance that there really is such a powerful being (I'm a scientific person so I can't deny it because I don't know), but for me it is just unlikely.

This is a fairly abstract comment, but this is a fascinating debate to read here - possibly one of the most mature discussions on religion that I've seen so far.

It certainly makes a change from this sort of stuff.

As for my beliefs, all I'll say is that I'm a Christian.

Interesting that some people (including Dawkins) believe that science and religion do conflict every time. I'd have thought that the Big Bang Theory might be a possible exception to this, in that it explains what happened, but not why. Any thoughts? As usual, this is all IMHO! :smile:

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My site

i still reckon that the most convincing arguement about why man is so far removed from nature, is the one that says spacemen genetically modified one of the apes, using their own dna. in their own image, so to speak.

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i eat paint

fishy said:
i still reckon that the most convincing arguement about why man is so far removed from nature, is the one that says spacemen genetically modified one of the apes, using their own dna. in their own image, so to speak.

I haven't seen the book since I was about 14 but didn't "The Late Great Planet Earth" deal with something along these lines?

Anyway, since I became an adult I haven't been nearly as positive about mans origins as I was as a teen. I used to think that Earth was the galactic cesspool and vacationing Spacemen and their cosmic Winnebago's dumped their cisterns as they passed.
When I was a real young'un I thought that the universe as we know it was setting on a shelf someplace like a giant snow globe.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Not sure if I'll be able to say this and truly explain myself.

I don't believe in God because of religion. Religion seems like such a way to put the burden on someone else. It's like saying I've f**ked up but it doesn't matter because I can throw myself to God and not take an responsibility. Religion causes so many wars and arguments and clouds peoples judgement.

I can see believing in a higher power when one couldn't explain how the sun would rise and you were so cut off from any other civilizations that you'ld need to believe something was behing it or you'ld go crazy. But now the world is so interconnected it almost seems silly that there are such totally different religions and they all think they're right. Like if some God created the Earth, why would he create people that don't believe in him and kill the people he loves so much (whom he also plagues). If you can understand that I think it's one of the biggest problems with religion.

So yeah, the way religion presents itself to me makes me think that there couldn't be a God doing this. Hence I assume we're just spiraly coils of self-replicating DNA.

I don't believe in God because of religion. Religion seems like such a way to put the burden on someone else. It's like saying I've f**ked up but it doesn't matter because I can throw myself to God and not take an responsibility. Religion causes so many wars and arguments and clouds peoples judgement.
...
Like if some God created the Earth, why would he create people that don't believe in him and kill the people he loves so much (whom he also plagues). If you can understand that I think it's one of the biggest problems with religion.

You stole the words straight out of my mouth. Can I have them back please?

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Better to be in denial than to be human.

Bill Gates understands binary: his company is number one, and his customers are all zeros.

Foxpup said:
You stole the words straight out of my mouth. Can I have them back please?

Can you prove that you had them before? Considering that the whole concept of this topic is ethereal, I just had to ask. :heee:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

That's kind of like saying I don't like Germans because Hitler was a german.

Take Buddhism for example, all there is a drive to improve oneself, no wars have been started by Buddhists.

EDIT:

I mean, no wars have been started over the Buddhist religion.

<br style="text-decoration: underline;">
For the record, I'd just like to clarify a few things before they come up:

The crusades were retaliatory wars in response to the Seljuk Turks taking over the Holy Land and persecuting pilgrims.

Martin Luther (the guy who started Lutherinism) was all about faith
based on faith alone, Catholicism is disposed to faith based on
scripture and tradition. Tradition comes down from the original
church (called "The Way") Jesus' instructions to his apostles, and the
Apostles' established tradition from their councils among themselves
after Pentacost

Martin Luther's arguements against corruption in the church were apt,
but the corruption was localized in one local bishop, who was selling
indulgences, which isn't a Catholic practice, and he was reprimanded.

Scriptural lteralism emerged in the 1400s in response to religions
branching off from Catholicism which were based on interpretting the
Bible literally. It has historically been overemphasized, but
today that's pretty much gone, save for independant priests and whatnot.

American Fundamentalism is historically linked to puritanical
religions, not Catholicism, despite what
Detroit Rock
City depicted.

Just so no one gets the wrong idea.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

<span style="color: white;">i'm not going to say i read all of the replies, however i did read the original post so here goes
i'm not going to yell you're going to hell or anything because God tells me not to judge, instead i will tell you a story

beginning with...I'm Catholic
up till earlier this year i was the run-of-the mill, go to church on sundays, and attempt to follow what was taught but never quite felt completely there Catholic
i went to a TEC (teens encounter Christ) i think 3 months ago at the prodding of our deacon when i was going through confirmation (basically the entry into adulthood and choosing that i wanted to continue with Catholicism)
i went in thinking it was going to be the normal church "camp" kind of weekend, but it

turned out to be completely different, it's hard to explain what happened there but I'll try...
during the weekend we basically redid, baptism, confirmation, etc. all of that
one night we had a confessional service and i basically had a lifechanging experience you could say, i actually felt God enter me and had this odd feeling of religous fulfillment and i actually felt like this was right, from that moment on i have felt this fulfillment in life that as long as i continue to do as God commanded i have continued to have that

moral of the story: heaven isn't the only reward, just doing God's work and actually letting him in has given me a joy on earth
i'm not going to lie and say i don't sin but i know that He realizes we aren't perfect and i also have comfort in that

EDIT: oh and Frenchy, just because you don't approve of the churchs is no reason not to believe in God, as far as i know God doesn't require you to go to a church to worship, i know of a man that communes with God by himself and he does it in his own idea of a church, he communes with God in the woods by himself because he feels that is where he can be closest to God, and in the end i feel that is what matters, and as the Bible says your body is a temple of God
</span>

I actually read all these posts very carefully. I Like it when people think out the reasons why the do or don't believe something. It keeps non-believers from quoting dumb movies and it keeps believers from being "momma-said" Christians: you know, the ones who believe all the stuff their "momma said," and don't read it for themselves. I'd love it if you all would please read my post and give it a fair chance.

I suppose I'll start by letting anyone who doesn't know yet that I DO believe in God. I started believing in God because my mom told me that it was what I was supposed to do. I guess this is how a lot of people start out, but that's not really why I believe anymore. Now, I believe because I've examined a LOT of sides of the issue, and I think that it just makes sense. I'd like to explain how the issue looks to someone like me:

First, I'd like to address some common misconceptions and shed a bit of light on what you don't really hear from most Christians these days:

Really, it all has to do with many ?systems? that God has set in place. These systems include but are not limited to, the laws of Physics, and the gift of free will.

<OL type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">About God caring about people, but bad things still happen, and the "gift of Free Will." When God created man, he gave man his own free will to do anything he wanted and to believe in Him or not.
<OL type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in">If God were to offer definitive, absolute proof of his existence, man, who has a ?see-to-believe? mindset would be forced to believe (because if there was any Absolute evidence we would be able to check it with Science and it would be added to our current scientific knowledge), and this would violate the free will we have when we choose whether to believe in him or not. God does not do things that violate our free will.
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in">As for Crono?s trucker allegory: Not everything good that happens is a miracle straight from God. One major problem with Christianity today is that the representatives of it (which are regular Christians) really don?t know as much as they should, so it gives the appearance of plenty of ?plot holes.? (lol) Many times the people to whom the good thing happened will claim that it was a miracle, when in fact; the trucker was just a nice guy. This leads me to another point.
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in">There is no Predestination. When someone talks about ?God?s plan for you.? They really don?t know what they are saying. God has a <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">desired</I> plan for <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">people</I> in general, but even Jesus had free will, If you read the gospels, you know that he did not have to be crucified, but he chose to for the good of everyone else. Predestination is a direct violation of ?free Will? and therefore does not exist.
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in">Having said that Predestination is a violation of free will, I can now explain how I feel about ?If God really Cares, why is there death, and hunger, and evil?? Many people ask me this question, and it is so hard to explain it, because I?ve never really typed up all the stuff I have typed today. The reason we have death and hunger are easily explained by Science (With which God has NO PROBLEM!) cells deteriorate, DNA degrades, that?s just the way things happen, because physical life is a circle. As for the bad things happening to good people and so forth: The reason is because we have un-touched free will and we are not perfect. There is not ANY possible way that we as physical beings could ever make all the choices in our lives without negatively affecting the beings around us. Any choice that negatively affects those around us (or ourselves) is what the bible refers to as ?sin.? We could never be PERFECT beings and make the choices that would keep us alive and still not affect anyone else in a negative way. Bad things would not happen to innocent people if God stepped in and saved the innocents from the results of our actions, but that is predestination, and a violation of free will. I?ll explain: Imagine that you walk up to a completely innocent man on the street and you point your gun at him to shoot him, but every time you pull the trigger, God makes the bullets disappear out of thin air, because the man you were going to shoot was innocent. In this scenario, the man was predestined by God not to die, and this affects YOUR free will. If you choose to commit action X but God takes away the effect of this action, then you really never had a choice as to whether you could commit X or not, because God had predestined that X was not to happen. ?Bad things happening to good people? is only a lack of predestination, for the sake of preserving free will.<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"></LI></OL>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">To be a Christian, you don't just have to say some magic words or something like that. This is why Pascal's Wager would not have worked anyway. Just 'believing' in God and being a good person is not enough. I'll explain why.
<OL type=1>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Before Jesus, people who believed in God had to sacrifice animals to take away their sin (the bible says that "the wages of sin is death" but God allowed the animals to take their place). The whole reason that all the Jesus stuff happened, was so that there would be ONE sacrifice for EVERYONE. You have to use your free will to believe in the one true sacrifice. There must be a feeling of conviction in one?s heart (meaning their emotional center) when one becomes a christian. </SPAN>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in">This is why, theoretically, a person would not just be saved, then go and commit all kinds of crimes and sins because he knows he will be forgiven by saying some magical forgive-words. When a person is saved (?saved? meaning the spiritual part of becoming a Christian) they feel truly sorry for the stuff they have done wrong. Being sorry means that you no longer want to do those things again, and even though you may do them, you will feel bad and will want forgiveness. If a person were to become a Christian, then do all the crimes, chances are they would not feel sorry for real, and probably were not really convicted when they were ?saved.?
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level2 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.0in">That?s the deal with Pascal, you can?t be a REAL Christian, ?just in case it?s true.? You have to believe that it?s absolutely true. You become one because of a true feeling of conviction in your whatever-it-is-that-does-emotions.</LI></OL>
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">To say that you do not believe in God because of Religion is a gross statement. Religion and Beliefs are two very different concepts. Beliefs are what you hold in your mind to be absolute truths. Religion is a method of organizing different doctrines. Anyone who has religion and no beliefs, is a confused person.
That?s like a starving man saying ?I don?t go to the soup kitchen. They SAY they are giving out soup, but I heard one of those guys come out and say he was still hungry.?
You can?t base your decisions on the mistakes of others. It?s folly.</LI></OL>


Andrei: as for your greek thing. God has been worshipped since before the Greek Gods and he is still being worshipped today as the same God. With the same ?systems? in place. It?s pretty impressive.

The only proof of God we have is how we live our lives after we claim to have been touched by him.

[edit] I forgot to add that God is not a mean kid who says "do it my way or go to hell." It's more like "You did it your way and now you are headed for Hell, Here, take this lifeline."

As you can see, it's really a pretty complicated thing. That is why my replies and reasons in other topics seem incomplete and disjointed many times. Christianity is like a Circle of these different systems, and anywhere you start off explaining, you've missed all of them that are behind already, and they are necessary to know to understand the first.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I heard about this scientist who charted the brain waves of people in
prayer, and tried to replicate those patterns in other people in order
to get a mental state of the presence of God. The guy succeded,
and it manifested itself as visions of vague parental figures, and
distant childhood memories.

God, if he exists, is an incomprehensible figure. We cannot dare
to understand what he is, how he is, or why he is, we have to
rationalize it somehow. Who is your unquestioned Lord and Master
before you really learn about God? Your parents, they stand
(stood?) for power, authority, and even comfort, on a primal level,
this is what anyone wants from God, to be comfortably controlled.

God isn't a pattern of brainwaves, he's just interpretted by our primitive minds as such.

Bringing up a point about relative faith.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

first off, very interesting stuff. Nickel great post, I've spoken with
friends who told me a lot of that, nice to see it so well thought out.

As for me, I have an evolving concept of "God" but the main point of it all stands, here we go...

I believe <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><span style="font-style: italic;">we</span></span>
are God. The all encompassing we, the collective conscious/sub
conscious/nonconcious we. The "real" world stops just outside the
brain, we feel, see, smell, taste but these are just impulses open to
interpretation. How we understand these impulses dictates our lives.
No one is wrong or right this way, perhaps that is why I feel this way
because I don't want anyone to be wrong.

This means we have full control over what is real to us. Greek gods,
"God", ghosts, the devil, Santa clause... its only an interpretation.
"Crazy" people may say everyone is out to get them, from the outside
looking in we stick a tag on their forehead and say they are a skitzo
but inside their mind there is only that pure truth.

Forgive my sloppy memory of this; Jesus said to the bleeding woman (who
touched him and was healed) "Its not I who healed you, you healed
yourself" I think this sums up my basic philosophy, we have the power
within us to do the "impossible" sometimes we just need an excuse to
use it.

The framework for all this is created by our parents. Without someone,
anyone, to raise us we aren't human, we aren't "alive" as I am define
myself as "alive." A infant without a care taker is an animal. (See:
"the forbidden experiment")

By no mean am I saying that God doesn't isn't real, or religious people
are just "nuts." If I were to break it down I'd say we are ALL nuts in
our own personal bubble made up of our own reality... but that's not
quite right.

I feel that there was a "God" in the popular sense of the word. He
existed for the infinitely timeless moment before he (not that it was a
he or she or an it even) set off the Big Bang. From that moment on god
became the universe and thus, when we became what we are, we became god.

Thats the best I can express myself at 5:15am...

I have noticed a peculiarity about religion. Those who disbelieve, can usually summarize themselves in a few short sentences. Those that believe cannot do so in less than a novel length reply. Could this be a sign of doubt? Perhaps mysticism? Maybe the non-believers cannot be bothered to form longer negatively based replies. shrugs

This isn't always the cases, but for the most part its true enough. I haven't ascertained why exactly, truth be told, its not really important enough to figure out. I was just noticing.

Carry on.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

@Andrei
I'm not sure what it is that gets certain people
to believe that God is something for primative people. Why do you feel
this way? I'm simply curious. :smile:

I'm not saying God is for primitive people. What I meant was that gods
were created by primitive and ancient people in order to give
explanations for things they didn't at the time understand and to give
them comfort in their lives. I was thinking that maybe God is one of
those gods, but one who managed to survive into modern times, for some
reason (maybe because he was more moderate than the other, more
pretentious gods? :heee: ).

Loco said:
Interesting that some people (including Dawkins) believe that science and religion do conflict every time. I'd have thought that the Big Bang Theory might be a possible exception to this, in that it explains what happened, but not why. Any thoughts? As usual, this is all IMHO! :smile:

I never really "believed" in the Big Bang. :biggrin: You know what, you're right, at this level science becomes almost religious but still it's about logical thinking. My problem with the Big Bang as a core explaination for everything is the question of what was before. What caused the whole universe to contract itself to a single spot and explode? And most importantly what's around it?

Almost every logical explaination fits into a model of sort, something that can be explained. But if the universe is just a big bubble with an infinite void around it, that has always been and will always stay, this is just like saying that there is a God who always existed and we just met him shortly after he created the earth.

To be honest I prefere to think of the universe as something that gets bigger and bigger and smaller and smaller the closer you look at the stars, atoms ect. I don't know if our universe is just an atom in another, much bigger one or wheter there is another universe in an atom of my left eye but this model seems much more logical to me. It's a concept of eternety that I find satisfying to believe.

When I think of the concept of a god I always get to the question: Who created God? I find that evolution is a more believable explaination for the creation of intelligence than thinking it was just there - from one day to the other.

reaper47 said:
I never really "believed" in the Big Bang. :biggrin: You know what, you're right, at this level science becomes almost religious but still it's about logical thinking. My problem with the Big Bang as a core explaination for everything is the question of what was before. What caused the whole universe to contract itself to a single spot and explode? And most importantly what's around it?

My point precisely. The Big Bang explains what happened, but doesn't say why it occured. AS you say though, this leads to the question: Who created God? If you can answer that he has always existed, then why can't the universe always exist? My personal answer to this is that funnily enough the universe isn't timeless, and if Big Bang theory is correct, then it had an initial beginning anyway.

As for Orph's observation that believer's explanations are much longer, you have to bear in mind that non-believers are describing things that they know and there is no theory - they are limited to bare facts whilst believers are talking about pure theory and attempting to do so using normal language. For example, Anselm's Ontological Argument constantly refers to the long-winded phrase "that-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-conceived".

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My site

I have no reason to, and no reason not to. Life on Earth, to me, is more important than the consideration of what comes after it; and, in improving one's life on Earth, religion is a fine tool. Whether the logic Christians use in supporting their belief in God is contestable is almost irrelevant, as their belief, no matter its reasoning, encourages good - and that's what's important.

<DIV class=quotetitle>
<DIV class=quotetext>[quote=Orpheus] I have noticed a peculiarity about religion. Those who disbelieve, can usually summarize themselves in a few short sentences. Those that believe cannot do so in less than a novel length reply. Could this be a sign of doubt? Perhaps mysticism? Maybe the non-believers cannot be bothered to form longer negatively based replies. shrugs [/quote]

I think that to people who believe, it is important to them that those who do doubt understand. To say that something DOES exist, you need to provide justification. But to say something doesn't exist: well you just don't beleive in it. It's simple, if it DOESNT exist you don't beleive in it. A one-liner. But if it does exist, there are a myriad of WAYS in which it could exist, and a myriad of ways in which would could believe.

There was nothing before the big bang. in order for there to have been "before" there had to have been time. Time is only measured by change. If there was NOTHING and ONE particle in the beginning, there could not ahve been any change with which to measure time. There would be nowhere for the particle to move, and no way for it to change except the way it DID change I suppose. Now, as for what CAUSED the Big Bang, I think it was God that did it. But there are different theories.

Cassius, Christianity is not just "what happens after" it's also a relationship with you and God DURING life, that is supposed to create peace and harmony between you and others, and thus a small part of the world.

The woman who was healed, was healed by her faith. Meaning that to future generations, we don't have to wait for Jesus to "turn around and do something," We can simply have faith and it will work.

</DIV></DIV>

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Religion causes so many wars and arguments and clouds peoples judgement.

So do women but we love 'em anyway. Anyhoo...

I don't believe in God, but Futurama summed up the issue as to why he doesn't help everybody all the time - "Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket."

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One day you'll know what you're talking about, I can hardly imagine

Maps! - Audio blog!

So many long posts... what would we do without relegion!

---

'The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.' - Somerset Maugham

Thanks everyone for making this a great thread to read through.

Nickel, I more clearly understand the free-will aspect of our lives, and so that addresses my "bad things happen to good people all the time" idea in my original post. I especially like how you tied the "no proof of God" into the violation of free-will.

Yet -- despite reading every single post here, and hearing all the arguments, it is still not bringing me any closer to being able to have faith in something I believe is highly unlikely to exist. It's not just there might or there might not be a God in my mind, it's more like... There's barely even a tiny chance He exists (as I see it). I can't really explain this and I'm sure its frustrating to read. I guess it has something to do with the fact that I just think faith in something bigger is just necessary for most people (especially in years past) to get by and feel safe and feel happy and just live to the fullest. I don't feel that need, and therefore its hard for me to put my faith in something invisible and quite possibly (and likely in my mind) invented to comfort people. I guess that's the meat of it.

Oh and Orpheus, even the non-believers take the time to write out their thoughts, on occasion :smile:

About time I had something long to say, but, everything had been said for me.

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'The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.' - Somerset Maugham

Morphine-

We could talk all day about why we believe, but that won't change anyone's mind. The only one that can bring you over that threshold is God, working in your life.

I guess all we can do is try to clean up confusion, between a meaningful relationship with God, and just a religion about him. As I've said before, it's more than a book, or going to church, it's a relationship with God himself.

I tried to write this without sounding like I was preaching.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

It speaks for the forum that this didn't turn into a large scale flame war. Actually, it's still hard to realize it didn't. I'm not used to this on the internet :wink:

Welcome to the snarkpit. :smile:

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

Dark, I never truly expected to radically change my point of view, but some of my qualms and questions have been addressed and answered, so this thread was worthwhile. Additionally, it was really beneficial to have to think through and express my thoughts on faith and religion. I wanted to get it all out, and I think I have. I appreciate what everyone has contributed so far and I look forward to seeing what others have to say.

Indeed, I would very much like to hear a muslim or hindu express their ideas and beliefs.

I know we have some around here.

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Dark_Kilauea
DVS Administration
http://www.dvstudio-production.com/

Wilkommen bei Snarkpit, Reaper! lol... Austria. :biggrin:

I think that this thread is really a god one. especially if we can keep people from making inflammatory remarks. We've done fairly well so far.

Anyhoo, Morphine: Life is a scary thing, and although some people need t believe in God to feel safe, I'd say most people beleive in God because of the conviction in thier heart that I mentioned before. If you beleive because you're scared of going to hell or scared of something else, it's most likely not a real belief.

I welcome any questions about my posts, because as much as I tried to explain everything, There are always some questions left unanswered. Orpheus once said "You have the religious world by the balls." I hear that a lot, sarcastically of course. I don't know everything, but That's my ultimate goal, I'll try my best to answer.

Wilkommen bei Snarkpit, Reaper! lol... Austria. :biggrin:

Gwil revealed our darkest secret in the other thread, I'm afraid. :rolleyes: