On behalf of Orpheus

[color=gold][b]Orph. has asked me to post this message; it was originally drafted as a private message on Prefabland.

[/b][/color]

Friends,Neighbors,Countrymen-lend me your ears...

You know guys, I could go into the melodramatics and slobber this all up, but whats the use? Yeah, I admit my leaving was rather swift in looking at it, but it was really a long time in coming if you think about it. Ask yourself, how many conflicts have occurred in my absence? I imagine very few to be honest about it.

Seriously guys. I am plain and simple tired of all the fights, I come online to get away from it, and yet always seem to either be the cause, or in the middle of almost every ordeal, and thats just wrong. One has to ask, what is the common denominator?

The last time I threatened to leave snarkpit, I left a long letter clear full of self pity, and except for a very few faithful, no one took it seriously, because??? well because Orph just doesn't leave.. I have to admit myself, if I were new to the site, I prolly wouldn't like myself much either, it indeed takes time, and most especially a personal need,to want to get to know
someone, and damned few at snarkpit really want to it seems.

http://www.snarkpit.com/forums.php?forum=2&topic=706&r=67</A> the catalyst?
yeah, but all in all not really worth quitting over though.

Each of your posts have subtle remarks trying to bait people to react so you can slam into them.

here is where I begin to falter, how does one talk
to people who insist there is hidden meaning contained within everything one writes? I cannot deal with such, its as if they want to fight, and all the
while retain the rights to blame it all on the other party... If nothing else holds true, I have been the same throughout all my online time, I seldom alter my views, and almost never withhold my feelings even when
circumstances dictated otherwise. Why do people always insist I have a hidden agenda? when I am so damned outspoken.

Christ almighty orph, Enough m8

TRANSLATION= "SHUT THE
f**k UP ALREADY WILLYA, WE ARE SO TIRED OF IT ALL" The last straw, even though I admit I was running out of ways to end this properly, friends never tell friends to shut-up. Even if I took this the wrong way, it still says allot about how people deal with people at snarkpit. Opinions- DO NOT HAVE TO BE SHARED WITH
ANYONE TO BE VALID! This is a fact, I have never been able to get anyone else online to share, I
will be the first to acknowledge, my viewpoint on many topics is somewhat narrow, but it is still how I look at them, and no one has the right to say I am wrong in doing so.

People of snarkpit have the same rights as well, but its HOW they word those rights, that is what separates the two. When was the last time I told anyone "YOUR WRONG?", actually I cannot remember using those words,because its just not me. I do, almost always
disagree, but I attempt to state that belief as an opinion, and being opinion it doesn't mention anyone by name, so it remains general in terms. Yes, the fact that I often quote peoples words, seems to be a direct attack
on them, but with text, how else does one bring a topic at snarkpit to center-stage? How often does a topic go astray? and how else would one bring it back to where you want to discuss something without directly quoting
them? Even though I often fail to express myself in any meaningful way, and more often I completely lose the other parties attention doing so, it doesn't mean I intended to have it go that way.

Lastly, friends don't attempt to change friends. This is the main issue here, on several occasions people have tried to change me to their viewpoint, this happens, I understand that,shoot even I do it, BUT when I see that its just not going to happen, I desist and move on,
something damned few others seem able to do. Even all my confrontations with DocRock, I never
attempted to change him, although it did look as if I were, I was in reality just repeatedly pointing out HIS FAULTS, and even that was only payback for the humiliation he gave me that time when I was gone and couldn't even defend myself. Opinions, do not have to be shared to be valid, as long as they are not
destructive, they should
be allowed..

you need to decide which group of mappers you want to be a member of, the ones who release quality, or the ones who don't.

time spent, should never be a deciding factor on why you release a map.

if the map was worth the time so far, it will continue to be worth the time it takes to achieve what you want.

i get really upset, when i see talent wasted, you have talent, now maybe you should develop the rest of what it takes to make a map.

pick your group wisely, cause once you do, its hard to switch to the better one later on.

/my harsh 2 cents.

I could copy/paste this response, and use it with every post about a new map, and it would be just as right, and unbiased with each posting, its not a personal attack on anyone, just a comment I think valid and noteworthy
enough to repeat, as many times as it takes to get them to listen. Its not a wrong comment in any way, and it is one that can have far reaching benefits if adhered to. Why people chose to turn it into a fight is totally beyond
me, but the really talented ones always seem to.

This letter has already exceeded my limits on just how long I wanted to explain myself, but I
wanted you to know, my decision wasn't rash, or rushed, and it definitely wasn't easy to make,
but I just cannot handle the confrontationalism anymore, but I also, as long as I have breath,
I cannot overlook one either, so as long as I am around, I will continue to do so, and THATS the reason I left.
If you like, or care to, you may post this at snarkpit, you have my permission, it in no way places blame, it is only intended to explain my apparent disappearance.

Snarkpit is my home, but no more so than [DRS] was, and when the clan grew to tedious to deal with, I left there as well.

be good guys, and yes I am copy/pasting this message, I just cannot bring myself to write it repeatedly, so if you realize I did this, don't be offended.

Orph

Gollum ya do me a favor now ya. Send the PM I sent ya to John eh.

Very well, but if you two start playing e-mail tennis don't expect me to act as the net :biggrin:

To me it seems sad that the thread Orph linked to shows most people supporting his view... He could have at least picked one of the more spectacular 'Orph vs the world' ones :smile:

Lep - why does stripslashes not always work? every now and then I see a thread with a bunch of ' and " in it.

orph was a good man. he was strongly opinionated and this was misunderstood. he contributed a lot to Snarkpit, so he deserves much respect. :smile:

Orph is probably the greatest contributor to this site, but why does he have to be such a drama queen about everything All he's doing by leaving is depriving us of his 1337 feedback, the selfish bastard. The only person who's ever gotten that bent out of shape about any of the spats he's had is... Orpheous. And usually I can't for a clue figure out why. Take a vacation or a chill pill and come back you bastard.

(that's my HARD LOVE for the day! :razz: )

Gollum said:
Very well, but if you two start playing e-mail tennis don't expect me to act as the net :biggrin:

I just dun have a contact email. Only his briefcase.

Jinx said:
Orph is probably the greatest contributor to this site, but why does he have to be such a drama queen about everything All he's doing by leaving is depriving us of his 1337 feedback, the selfish bastard. The only person who's ever gotten that bent out of shape about any of the spats he's had is... Orpheous. And usually I can't for a clue figure out why. Take a vacation or a chill pill and come back you bastard.

(that's my HARD LOVE for the day! :razz: )

First off, I don't want to hear another word about your 'hard love'.

Second, Orpheous did have a tendancy to overdramatize, as was his nature, but that was just who he was. That facet of his personality was undoubtedly problematic at times, but was it really that big of a deal? No, not to me. If you wanted to hear what he had to say, you listened, and if you didn't, you just forgot about the thread (however I can only recall about three points in my entire history here at which I actually disagreed with him, so I don't think I'm really in much of a position to say this.)

Any problems he caused were far outweighed by his amazing skill and competence in a number of areas, his reviews especially - which to this very day, not a single one of us can touch.

If he wants to leave though, so be it, that's his call and his choice, no matter if you disagree with it or not. It's unfair to call him selfish when you would have him stay chained to a community he was so amazingly instrumental to, yet a good half of it was in contempt of him.

Jinx said:
Orph is probably the greatest contributor to this site, but why does he have to be such a drama queen about everything All he's doing by leaving is depriving us of his 1337 feedback, the selfish bastard. The only person who's ever gotten that bent out of shape about any of the spats he's had is... Orpheous. And usually I can't for a clue figure out why. Take a vacation or a chill pill and come back you bastard.

(that's my HARD LOVE for the day! :razz: )

Maybe its because he never intended to have any spats and most of the ones that he had were because people refused to read what he posted, extrapolated his words beyond what he said, or took it personally? I've known him as long as anyone and I am not surprised he got fed up with it all. Most would just take a break and come back later but he has no qualms completely and utterly removing himself.

The way things have been going here it was only a matter of time. :sad:

and Orph's email is in his profile...

ah well I'm just trying to make light of things a little. and I never did understand some things about how Orph reacted to things, or why any of that stuff was such a big deal to anyone, himself included. But in any case, he will be missed

Take care Orph.. I'll be around on-line to chat or what-ever if you want to.

I was a member of Pre-Fab Land and met Orph there. He told me all about this great group of mappers that hung around on a site called the SnarkPit, and he said I would fit right in, and should come check it out. So I did.. I have to thank him for introducing me to this group.. I have learned much from it.

The one thing that chaps my hide about this site is all the America bashing that goes on here. Makes a person not even want to bother with the site...

Money

Who wants to join me and build a golden Orph? It'll be just like that part in the bible where the burning bush talks! He probably won't post as much as the old one, but at least he won't kick you when you try to hug him. :smile:

MoneyShot said:
The one thing that chaps my hide about this site is all the America bashing that goes on here. Makes a person not even want to bother with the site...

Money

We don't bash America, just the retarded asshats that run it!

If it wasent for him, I would never have finished a single map. And then again, I have yet to truly finish a map. So my next, D_C2 will be finished and will be for him.

Me, you, and Snarkpit wouldnt be the same without him. And for the few poor bastards that took his words a little too deep, piss off.

Orph was and still is my friend. Sure not everybody can see eye to eye on everything. The first time I made a map and he helped me I got quite a few comments I deemed very rude. But they were just and true.

Orph always mentioned his words as OPINIONS NOT FACTS.

How some people didnt get that is beyond me. Orph decided after taking in a load of crap to take a break, be it temporary (I can only hope) or permanent. But none the less, we all have lost both a friend, a fellow mapper, and a valuable source of feedback for our maps.

I hope you guys are proud. Cause I'm not.

Will miss ya John.

jesus h. christ, some of you guys never cease to amaze me with the loads of sheit that come out of yer mouths....hes one of the most honest and forthright people in the f**kin hl community ive ever met...grow up and deal with the harsh realities of life, or get the f**k off the train....if you think HE was harsh, well, ive got news for ya....he was KIND to most of us....and even when we didnt deserve that kindness, he gave of himself anyway....sit back and reflect, and if you have a f**king brain in yer head, youll see that he only wanted to bring out the best IN ALL OF US!!! whether we deserved it or not....

just my 2 cents....

Doc Brass....

... ...

Alien_Sniper said:
Who wants to join me and build a golden Orph? It'll be just like that part in the bible where the burning bush talks! He probably won't post as much as the old one, but at least he won't kick you when you try to hug him. :smile:

I get enough church when I am forced to go to mass every Sunday. :biggrin:

Skeletor said:

Alien_Sniper said:
Who wants to join me and build a golden Orph? It'll be just like that part in the bible where the burning bush talks! He probably won't post as much as the old one, but at least he won't kick you when you try to hug him. :smile:

I get enough church when I am forced to go to mass every Sunday. :biggrin:

I don't remember the burning bush posting on message boards or kicking people, nor did anyone try to hug it (I mean, who wants to light themselves on fire?)

...oh wait, you meant Orph.

Wow, I go to work for a few days straight, come back and I have no clue what's been happening.

If it wasent for him, I would never have finished a single map. And then again, I have yet to truly finish a map. So my next, D_C2 will be finished and will be for him.

Me, you, and Snarkpit wouldnt be the same without him. And for the few poor bastards that took his words a little too deep, piss off.

Orph was and still is my friend. Sure not everybody can see eye to eye on everything. The first time I made a map and he helped me I got quite a few comments I deemed very rude. But they were just and true.

Orph always mentioned his words as OPINIONS NOT FACTS.

How some people didnt get that is beyond me. Orph decided after taking in a load of crap to take a break, be it temporary (I can only hope) or permanent. But none the less, we all have lost both a friend, a fellow mapper, and a valuable source of feedback for our maps.

I hope you guys are proud. Cause I'm not.

Will miss ya John.

How touching, except his name is Jon... :wink:

No. There is nothing anyone can ever say that will make me believe that for some reason anyone should not have defended what they believed because they didn't want Orph to leave, that much is ridiculous. He had a very different set of values from any one of us, and it's only natural that we argued with him, often to a boiling point.

It is not okay that people began holding grudges against him - he was hated because he was misunderstood. He frequently found himself without anyone to stand on his side during a debate, and almost as frequently would I come to his side to try and even things out - but you learn after a while that he seemed to fight better on his own.

For that same reason, I don't think Orph is going Agamemmnon-style on us or something of the like. He won't be crawling back for as long as I can see - he has an amazing willpower in that regard and others, which some of us decided to turn on it's ass and call it stubbornness, and that is precisely why he left. I don't think it was any fault of his own - knowing full well how Orph would react, we chose to needlessly prod at his pride, and when he fought back, there were those who mocked him for it.

Well said cass.

Alien_Sniper said:
How touching, except his name is Jon... :wink:

Damn...

True Cass, I mean he founded DRS, and he hasn't gone back to them. Musta been a bit odd. Fortunately I still chat to him quite a bit on other forums so he will know how I feel.

the biggest obstacle that i can see he had to deal with around here was, well, yer not gonna like this, but its the truth....the age factor.....Orph is a seasoned veteran of life, and as such, he has developed his values and beliefs base much further than most of you....and im older than he is, if that gives you any insight as to MY mindset....kids today simply dont have the experience to see thru the vast sea of bulls**t out there, you only see and react to the glaze on the surface....although there are exceptions to this rule around here, it is the norm....and thats just life....it might do you all well, myself included, to reflect a bit on yer motives and bases for argument here....hes a helluva guy, whether you all appreciate that or not....and wise beyond his years...with no tolerance for uninformed, petty, and un-thought-out bulls**t statements....i second his beliefs...as they are my own as well for the most part. one day hopefully you guys will understand what im saying....times have changed, and in my book, definately not for the better....here endeth the lecture....fire away.

Doc Brass...

I don't know Doc. age alone does not make a person wise (that isn't a stab at Orph). from my perspective, people from my parents generation are in many cases inflexibly molded into a political shape which reflects their own era, rather than changing dynamicly to accomidate the world we actualy live in. Granted age bestows a more solid frame of reference, but what's the point if that frame is skewed by the experiences that created it?

Take an example: the difference in how people react to a uniform. my brother is a Lutenant the Coast Guard and he has made this observation:

people from the WWII generation are always thrilled to see him in his uniform, and compliment him on it. people from the vietnam generation generaly look askance and ask, why are you whearing that. a clearly negative responce. finaly, people from my generation are completly mixed in their responces, some react with entusiasim while others do so with disgust.

This may partly proove your point in that it illistrates the amorphous opinion of young people, but my feeling is that it also shows a degree of sophistication that we are making our own opinions without particular regaurd to what the government, or our peers for that matter, tell us. this in contrast with the mass protest of vietnam, and the mass enlistments of WWII. in both cases, in my opinion, young people were cought up by the popular movement and operating more on the opinion of the majority than their own.

I do not claim to have any idea what Bushes motivations for the war are. My feeling though is that he is sincerly trying to do what is right for the world. Whether what has been done is a good thing or not remains to be seen. in my opinion Sadam should have been removed in the first gulf war. it had to be done, I'm just not sure it was done right.

very nice retort TB....im glad we are gonna discuss this instead of "inflexably" flexing our muscles... :wink:

lets go point by point....

I don't know Doc. age alone does not make a person wise (that isn't a stab at Orph).

exactly my first point..as i said, there are exceptions to the rule....

from my perspective, people from my parents generation are in many cases inflexibly molded into a political shape which reflects their own era, rather than changing dynamicly to accomidate the world we actualy live in. Granted age bestows a more solid frame of reference, but what's the point if that frame is skewed by the experiences that created it?

it is exactly those experiences, good and bad, which shape the values we hold dear....and all are shaped differently.....the times hold the mold...WW2...the world fought a common set of a problems, for the most part....the enemies were acknowledged, and feared, and the concensus was built because of the obvious impending consequenses.....prolly the last time the world has been that united....which is why:

people from the WWII generation are always thrilled to see him in his uniform, and compliment him on it.

when i came back from the Nam, i was struck at the venom to which we arrived...

[color=limegreen]people from the vietnam generation generaly look askance and ask, why are you whearing that. a clearly negative responce[/color]

..the world we lived in was split because the enemy was not a common one, and split the country into fragmented political structures, to wit, we have yet to recover...

finaly, people from my generation are completly mixed in their responces, some react with entusiasim while others do so with disgust..

because they have had no unifying set of events in which they HAD to rally together to defeat a common enemy.....and even after the 9-11 event, they still are dissaffected to some degree...thus the split continues....and until we have a few more events such as that, im of the firm belief we will NOT be unified in our fight (and it is a WORLD fight, not just ours) against these friggin fanatical lunatics that cant wait to get to Allah....unfortunate, and sad actually, but all to real. which emphasises the next point....

This may partly proove your point in that it illistrates the amorphous opinion of young people, but my feeling is that it also shows a degree of sophistication that we are making our own opinions without particular regaurd to what the government, or our peers for that matter, tell us. this in contrast with the mass protest of vietnam, and the mass enlistments of WWII. in both cases, in my opinion, young people were cought up by the popular movement and operating more on the opinion of the majority than their own.

this is pretty much what we just covered, not gonna belabor it.... :wink:

I do not claim to have any idea what Bushes motivations for the war are. My feeling though is that he is sincerly trying to do what is right for the world. Whether what has been done is a good thing or not remains to be seen. in my opinion Sadam should have been removed in the first gulf war. it had to be done, I'm just not sure it was done right.

and to this statement, i tip my hat to you sir....i agree almost 100%....and i will still fight and die for my country because, i feel ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO...the thing that bothers me the most here is that we will have to endure more 9-11 scenarios before its all said and done, the odds state so, and itll only be then that we get off our asses and become the country we should have been all along....UNITED states.....as for the rest of my brethren the world over.....think what you like of me and us, but dont let it color your true values, or your statements just because of some petty animosities....

to be continued, im sure...

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Couldn't he of just said "Goodbye everyone, love you all!!!" Long posts bug me. Because I can't read.

at the risk of sounding flippant, it sounds like a personal problem to me matt... :razz:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

may i suggest, the "Evelyn Woodhead Sped Reddin' Course"?? :heee: (only the old farts will get that one... )

And i just wrote a multi manager tutorial, oh well. People come and go.

....send it to him ben, itd be a nice gesture... :wink:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Mr.Ben said:
And i just wrote a multi manager tutorial, oh well. People come and go.

I did when Snarkpit was in version 3 but even then he never got it.

cmon TB, where are ya??....we were having a nice constructive conversation here....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

I am for the most part inclined to agree with you, which is why I have been slow to respond. it is very possible that the diseperate opinions I see in my peers are simply the result of a lack of any unifying motivation. however, it seems quite depressing to me that we need an enemy to push us together into a cohesive group. A part of me wants to assume that young people today are somehow better equiped to deal with the world and from their own opinions, but I see that that is an untenable position. after all, what makes us different from our parents? every generation probably considers themselves to be special and different.

it seems to me that politics are becoming more and more polarized. everyone is sure that the other side is dstroying the country. I expect that we will blithly contunue on a fragmented course untill the inevitable happens: a nuclear detonation in an american city. Then maybe somthing will happen akin to the unifying affects of WWII, but IMO not untell then.

TB... what an optimist!

he was hated because he was misunderstood

Well I for one will totally disagree with this. Anybody who hated Orph is an idiot. I had my fair share of flame wars with Orph but I think we could both tell that the other could chuckle at the whole thing in the end - to save any hard feelings would have been moronic to say the least. With Doc and Orph I think it got personal and this to me would seem to be the main reason for Orph leaving.

he's meaning Docrock....just to clarify, (i think) :biggrin: but it was more like the "throw yer hands up in the air" point...what are you gonna do after it leaves the realm of true discussion?....hmm

? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=scary_jeff"">scary_jeff</a>

Anybody who hated Orph is an idiot. no truer words have been spoken in this thread... :wink:

Doc Brass.... :razz:

Gorbachev said:
Wow, I go to work for a few days straight, come back and I have no clue what's been happening.

go to work stoned then

fishy said:

Gorbachev said:
Wow, I go to work for a few days straight, come back and I have no clue what's been happening.

go to work stoned then

Then either you won't have to worry about going back to work or you won't care anymore what happens outside of getting more Cheetos

Going to work stoned is a bad idea. BAD IDEA KIDS.

Tracer Bullet said:
it seems to me that politics are becoming more and more polarized. everyone is sure that the other side is dstroying the country.

Every human being is eternally bound to the tendancy to polarize. Polarization, judgement, is the ability of the human mind to take things that are many and confusing to it and bind them under one notion/emotion, rather than being overloaded with specifics. Defining two things as opposites is not a sin.

Yes, catagorization is an important cognitive tool through which we percive our environment, but the political polarization I speak of goes beyond that... or maybe the problem is that it doesn't. if you cannot recognize and question the lense through which you view the world, you might as well be a chimpanzee. polarization may be our instinct, but that does not mean we are bound to it.

What does a man do when he looks in the distance? He squints. Perception is limited, and all we know is what we have percieved. When we learn something, when we see something, smell, taste, touch, our mental structure is evolved so that we immediately define and judge what we experience - grass is green, fire hurts to touch, etc. What we have experienced dictates what we will experience - every time you drop something, it will fall to the floor, and every morning, the sun will rise. Maybe it's possible that these things might fail to happen, that they might inexplicably change, but all we can do is assume that they won't, all we can do is have faith that the sun will rise and that the grass won't turn purple on us. No matter how many times we doubt and no matter how well we recognize our 'lens', our questions will still be inside that lens; it's impossible to know yourself and be yourself at the same time.

But I'm afraid I digress a bit from the topic of Orph :biggrin:

You are entierly correct Cass, but what you are missing is the human capability to percieve that which we do not know. I squint at the horizon, but I am capable of understanding that what I see cannot be all that there is. I look at the sky and wonder what there is that I don't see. likewise, I hear or read another person's political position and consider what I do not know and may be able to learn from the material, even if it is diametricaly aposed to my own way of thinking.

He, how many threads ever stay on topic?

Tracer Bullet said:
You are entierly correct Cass, but what you are missing is the human capability to percieve that which we do not know. I squint at the horizon, but I am capable of understanding that what I see cannot be all that there is.

much like christopher columbus saying the world isnt "flat".....now thats balls....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Actually, Doc- it was a generally accepted fact amongst most of the enlightened peoples of that time that the world was indeed not flat- it even dates back to ancient greek philospopher/scientists (I want to say Aristotle, but I'm probably very, very wrong). According to legend, he measured the angle of the shadow off of a stick at a certain time of day. He also had a friend who would be travelling south somewhere do the same thing at the same time- and when they compared the measurements, the guy basically concluded that the difference could only be explained through the earth being spherical. Unfortunately, they didn't think that this idea was worth pursueing, so they basically called it that and went on with their lives.

Flash forward a few hundred years to when the Catholic church is basically in control of everything- They had it on official dogma that the earth was flat, and at the center of the universe (An entirely seperate debate, if you want to get into it), and since they essentially had control (through use of "church sponsored books" and "works of heresy") of what the common person read, they basically shut out any publishings that said the earth was round.

So people knew, but the church didn't want to admit that it was wrong, and possibly lose the faith of everyman, so it was never accepted as "truth," only taken as creative thought on the part of the thinkers.

What Columbus DID do, however, was manage to convince the royalty at the time that this idea was worth investing money in, and that is major since it basically showed that the royalty had more insight than the church- although it isn't really that apparent to those outside of the royal circle. I'm sure that must have been interesting.

Although Amerigo Vespuci (SP?) was technically the first person to actually "discover" the "new" "world" (hence the name "America").

I'll shut up now, though. Sorry.

/random history

well, thank you for the history lesson there monqui....but i think you missed the hint of sarcasm; seems that was a big beef of Orphs too, not reading the inflections in the words, which is very hard to do unless you have a flair for it....... and yes, most of that i was already aware of....(paid attention in history class, my teacher was a stone fox... :heee:

edit>>> and to clarify, if i must, i was refering to it "taking balls" to actually sail into the unknown...hell, i rode submarines for 8 years man, and it was still quite a friggin rush the day i got out.... :wink:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

I thought Amerigo was the cartographor who made the first map of the new world when columbus got back, not the one who discovered it...??

actually, he was the first to identify the new world of North and South America as separate from Asia. columbus thought he had reached Asia till he died....no one new better....first trip, amazon river mouth, second trip, found and established it as the New World....

Doc Brass.. :dodgy:

I know Doc, I just like to hear the clicking of my keyboard, ya know? (I would say that "I like to talk just to hear my own voice," but that would be weird, since this is an online forum, and I haven't physically said anything for the past 30 min or so (outside of making an ass out of myself by singing along to Linda Scott's "I've Told Every Little Star," (Don't ask...) but that doesn't count, really)).

I picked up on the sarcasm, just being weird, I guess :heee:

Tracer Bullet said:
Cass, but what you are missing is the human capability to percieve that which we do not know.

I think that's much closer to what I was talking about the whole time, though I didn't directly touch on the point. Faith or belief is the higher level or perfection of judgement - and not just in the religious sense. Nobody knows that the sun will rise the next morning, but nobody wonders about it, either. It's something without a word or a noncontradictory definition - it's knowing without knowledge.