Its a bit far fetched but hear me out.

Here is my theory of how our universe was created. God exists in a separate universe where the laws and rules of existence are different, including the law, energy cannot be created or destroyed.

Maybe these black holes or worm holes are portals to this universe. When somebody dies, the soul becomes separate from the physical body and goes into the new universe, hence afterlife. The soul is a different matter (anit-matter or something) and is not effected by gravity.

Closest thing I could come up with. What do you think?

Edit: The problem with all theories is that they all involve infinite. Is infinite or never ending even possible? Who created this new universe and than who created the universe where the first universe was created and so on..

Space going for ever is impossible, space stopping is impossible, but what if space loops somehow? What our universe is some kind of complex mathematical sphere, just like the earth.

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Aaron's Stuff

ok but there no way of findin out "YET"

Way to make a baseless theory. Good job.

If there is some sort of higher intelligence that designed all this ... don't you think it'd be more conceivable that we don't have anything close to an understanding of its existence?

In general, you're thinking too small. The things we don't know vastly outweigh the things we do know (and most of that is flimsy).

I'm just not going to respond to the rest ... go look up terms before you use them from now on. You sound like an episode of Star Trek.

What I think:

It makes a little bit of sense that existence has some sort of intelligent design. Things work together too well. If you look at things at a very low level, this becomes apparent. Of course, the alternative, is that it isn't intelligent design and every other possible combination happened before the current one. Of course, there's no way to figure out if these things occurred.

All information we have that we base our theories on come from things we observe and what we observe could be causing or be caused by.

For instance, as far as we can tell, the universe is always expanding. We surmised this by looking at the color of far away objects, figuring out their composition (there's cool way to do that) and then seeing how it is color shifted. Because of how light travels, we can figure all these other neat things out like the velocity of an object (or the velocity it had however many million years ago!) This is the reason we think the big bang happened, if everything is continually moving away from us (everything looks like it is, by the way) it could be surmised that we are near (in galactic terms) some sort of center that started the universe ... the details of that have been derived from that.

My point is, none of this stuff was just plucked out of thin air and told as a "theory". Theories have evidence. Otherwise, it's an idea.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Who created God then? He can't just come out of nowhere, can he? Or was he always there? Or even more interesting: Wouldn't it be much more logical (if we exclude consistency with the bible as part of our logic thinking) that everything we know has been there forever and in fact wasn't created by a man who looks kinda like us but invisible?

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Why snark works.

God is a place holder for a correct answer.

The universe is expanding but it's interesting, our galaxy is dew to collide with the next one closest to us. I forget when but our 2 galaxies are closing in on each other vary quickly.

My theory? Well, some current hypothesis state the universe is going to expand until it destroys it self. I don't agree but i can't argue against them. I really don't' know crap.
My simplistic view of the universe is that our current version of the universe started at a singularity and will expand until it contracts. Only in my head instead of crushing into a singularity is passed through a singularity into a different plane of existence. The universe on the other plane of existence will expand and contract and pass through the singularity again. Maybe expanding back into our plan or maybe some other plane.

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Reality has become a commodity.

It makes a little bit of sense that existence has some sort of intelligent design. Things work together too well. If you look at things at a very low level, this becomes apparent.

I've always figured that if it didn't work like that, then a) we wouldn't be able to percieve/make sense of it, and b) life just wouldn't exist. If everything doesn't fall perfectly, then bam, no life. So the fact that we are where we are is testament to more of a natural selection thang finding perfection through trial and error.

Who created God then? He can't just come out of nowhere, can he? Or was he always there? Or even more interesting: Wouldn't it be much more logical (if we exclude consistency with the bible as part of our logic thinking) that everything we know has been there forever and in fact wasn't created by a man who looks kinda like us but invisible?

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Reality has become a commodity.

suppose;

an advanced race of beings (let's call them elo's) arrive on earth looking for raw materials. mainly gold, to use as radiation shielding on their spaceships. instead of doing the digging themselves, they look for an animal that can to do the job for them. maybe something like an ape would be an ideal candidate, an animal that had already evolved an opposing digit, and could fetch and carry with some dexterity. now, i'd imagine that even the most advanced ape, as we know them, would still have some trouble being a miner or whatever, so there would need to be a little genetic engineering involved to get the workers just right. make them a bit smarter so as to be easier organised. after many failed experiments, the elo's finally find a way to create the workers (let's call them the uz) that they need by augmenting ape dna with 'smart' code from their own.

as well as educating the uz in basic hexidecimal mathematics, written language, justice (the elo's being a very just race, of course. well..., at least in their own eyes), farming, animal husbandry etc, they also told them about where everyone came from. the elo's explained that their home planet ( X ) is part of this solar system, trapped like many of our comets in a huge retrograde orbit, 30 degrees off the eliptical. they also explained how they had created the uz, but the uz , even though smarter than the average bear, had difficulty in comprehending the technical details. (this would lead to much confusion later)

anyway, planet X had rounded the sun already, and was about to begin it's 7000 year voyage through the darkness again, so the elo's got their s**t together and headed home. the economy that they had created for the uz, based on gold, would ensure that there was plenty of it stockpiled for their return.

that was almost 7000 years ago.

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i eat paint

Sweeet, time to skin me some elo's and sell 'em on ebay.

That content advisory label forgot to mention zombies.

The universe is the way it is because this is the only way the universe could possibly be, and since we can't even begin to comprehend all of that, we make s**t up. We can't know anything with absolute certainty, and everything we ever think we know is based on a very narrow perspective of one individual's experience, and then we die.

Humans have a nifty little ability to record ideas and pass them on to the next generation. Some devote their lives to finding out as much as they can about something and recording it, so the people who come after them won't have to devote their entire lives to finding out the same things, they can piggyback off of those ideas and devote their lives to finding out something new. It seems to be an innate drive in a small minority of the population, while a majority of population seems to have an innate drive to disregard, diminish, and even destroy the learnings and legacies of that small minority... especially if what those people recorded is in any way in disagreement with whatever made up thing that majority happens to believe at the time.

I personally don't believe there is a God or any kind of 'higher power' or eternal essence or soul or life after death, in any literal meaning, they're just made up ideas. But all of those things certainly do exist in a cultural sense, and they're some of the most powerful ideas in the human condition, even to the minority who don't believe in them (a different, larger but often overlapping, minority than that other one), because they shape our cultural, social, and ideological surroundings and therefore our entire life's worth of experience, and then we die.

One hell of a ride though

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o

A Big Crunch sounds tasty... a Big Bang happens a few hours later making you regret it :sad:

Seriously, this whole topic is just mind boggling. Mabye god was invented to keep us fearful and doing the right thing at a time when there wasn't much peace and security ( 2000+ years ago).

The big bang is impossible because everything has a cause and effect. Hypothetical, me smashing a window (hypothetical :wink: ) was caused by my brother being a jerk to me, and that was caused because he had a fight with a friend, which was caused because my brothers friend lost his.. watch, which was caused by him being tired, which was caused by him having a late night ...... it goes on for ever. What caused the big bang? Energy moving or something, and that was caused by.... .The energy/matter didn't just come from nowhere, this is the problem with every theory, they all seem to keep going on for ever. This is why the question, is infinite possible so important. But I think infinite is impossible. Say for example the line is infinite, that is impossible, because that means that the line has no cause, nothing caused the line. Everything has a cause and effect.

However, something being the "first cause" or the starter is also impossible, because of this rule, everything has a cause and effect. Thats why there must be a 3rd solution, something that we may never figure out.

However on Crono's point, its amazing how everything works out. We are given a perfect planet, we have eyes, food, hands, everything is balanced, even out side our plannet, we have a sun, new stars are born..... So maybe there is a super intelligent race weather you want to call tham aliens, or god.

Edit: lol at redwoods picture.

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Aaron's Stuff

I'm not particularly fond of this creationism trend which calls god an "intelligent designer" (really, choice of words is the only difference to Christianity). Say you just believe it, that's OK with me. Why not. It's theoretically possible. But when arguing on a logical, scientific or philosophic level, "intelligent design" just holds no merit, especially if you look at its likeliness.

You always have the problem of what came first. It's unlikely that something obviously more complex than us (a god-like being) came before our humble selves. If the "intelligent designers" were created by other intelligent designers those had to be created by yet other intelligent designers and so on.

At one point they either had to evolve out of a simpler existence (evolution, huuuu) or they had to have been perfect forever. In which case our chaotic existence is about a billion times more likely, than a perfect, intelligent designer to have always existed. And both are, if you look at the ever-changing universe for one second, unlikely choices.

I don't have a problem with infinity. People always want to compare time with the pointers of a clock. Like there is a 0-hour where it has to start and another point where it ends, just because we're used to measure it that way.

I don't think that time works that way. Basically, every particle in the universe is moving into some direction with a certain force. And that always stays constant. Energy can be transmitted, particles can collide, but nothing disappears, appears out of nowhere (just because quanta look weird to us doesn't mean they don't follow the same rules on a smaller level we can't possibly grasp). So it's unlikely for this movement to ever stop. Which also makes it unlikely for it to have ever not existed. And there you have infinity as an insanely complex but possible mathematical equation. So complex in fact, that, at some point, it is likely for a race like ours to spawn.

If you think of time as a form of movement, it not only makes time travel impossible :wink: , it also recognizes all your own "movement" in the world as having an impact and changing it. And whatever you do in your life, it will slightly impact the course of the world, and will do so forever. It's quite a satisfying thought to me.

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Why snark works.

I don't know how the Universe was created, nor do I care. I think the time and energies of mankind can be put to better use solving the problems of mankind in reality.

I certainly don't believe in God, I am an avowed atheist.

Now I will go and sit in the corner and break up someones lego creation as an outlet for my spite. So nyaaah :razz:

Au contraire Gwil, I think the God/Atheism debate is going to be a major showdown of our generation, because eventually logical people are going to wake up and realize that our children are being fed misinformation and such and there's going to be a major confrontation about it, hopefully very soon. How that will manifest itself, I don't know, but saying this isnt a problem is incorrect.

I of course know what you're getting at, but over here in self-centered north america this is a big deal.

The most popular religion in America is Televisionism.

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o

French Toast said:
Au contraire Gwil, I think the God/Atheism debate is going to be a major showdown of our generation, because eventually logical people are going to wake up and realize that our children are being fed misinformation and such and there's going to be a major confrontation about it, hopefully very soon. How that will manifest itself, I don't know, but saying this isnt a problem is incorrect.

I of course know what you're getting at, but over here in self-centered north america this is a big deal

hahaha this is funny

I don't think it's not a problem really, I just feel that the intelligent design/big bang universe etc arguments are a bit old hat.

My feelings lean this way as on another forum (british) I frequent, we had like 10-20 page discussion about ID/Science and everyone was getting het up and overexcited - yet no-one ever voices an opinion about how the country is run or rather, focus the same energy they would on a religion debate as they do for social policy.

irony said:
I don't know how the Universe was created, nor do I care. I think the time and energies of mankind can be put to better use solving the problems of mankind in reality.

A full, final and undeniable explaination of creation would help to solve most of mankinds problems.

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i eat paint

Seriously, this whole topic is just mind boggling. Mabye god was invented to keep us fearful and doing the right thing at a time when there wasn't much peace and security ( 2000+ years ago).

Some of the earlier gods (Greeks/Romans) were created and used as scape goats. "OO why did our crops dye." "We didn't pry to the god of rain enough". It gave them a wanted answer and the appearance of some kind of control. By praying or making a sacrifice, whether it be a pot or a eight year old girl, it gave a false sense of control witch is nice to have.
A lot of the more modern western religions are used as a form of government. They seek to control every aspect of their followers lives. And they will kill you if you argue with them.

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Reality has become a commodity.

? quote:[quote=irony]I don't know how the Universe was created, nor do I care. I think the time and energies of mankind can be put to better use solving the problems of mankind in reality. [/quote]
A full, final and undeniable explaination of creation would help to solve most of mankinds problems.

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BBCode snarfed up!

But then that's subscribing to the ideal that "religion causes wars!" which always has been, and always will be a redundant argument - religion can be used to justify SOME wars, but it certainly isn't the sole cause of mankinds suffering. Even if the question were answered beyond reasonable doubt, people would still use the moral teachings of religion to give life a purpose.

Keep in mind that the 2 bloodiest conflicts of the the 20th century (one causing the other, and therefore causing a 3rd) have hardly anything to do with religion, if anything at all.

Never mind the fact that the bloody mindedness of industrialisation and global capitalism doesn't find its roots in religion, in fact most of the modern problems of the world are created by the so called "enlightened" thought of European philosophers.

Uttering that all the worlds problems are down to religion is wrong on so many levels, most importantly because it views the world from Western ideals and through the eyes of the Abrahamic religions. I'll grant you that a large portion of problems to do with religion affect Europe and the Middle East but again, that's laying the blame at the door of religion without any regard for the many other factors which contribute to social problems.

I just saw a tedtalk on this.

There are 2 things: a fundamental law of physics, and a lot of accidents (quantum mechanics). Together they can explain where we are today, without divine intervention.

• The conformability of nature to herself<LI>the applicability of the criterion of simplicity<LI>the "unreasonable effectiveness" of mathematics describing physical reality

are emergent properties of the fundamental law of physics. "You don't need something more to get something more. Life, the human mind can emerge from physics and chemistry + a lot of accidents."

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Life, the human mind can emerge from physics and chemistry + a lot of accidents."

Sounds like common sense to me.

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Reality has become a commodity.

Aaron: Understand that there is a distinction between fabricated mythologies that account for the various characteristics of the universe and data observed in or deduced from those characteristics. The former represents part of the realm of imagination, into which your narrative fits; the latter is the province of science. Yours is a work of science fiction. Do not confuse it for genuine knowledge.

What's funniest about creationists is that their arguments never hinge on evidence, only rhetorical caveats that typically don't follow the discussion at all. Their counter to any mention of the fossil record or microevolution is typically: "Don't you know Jesus loves you? Why would you reject the love of Christ?"

I agree with Gwil, though, that most critiques of Christianity are overstated. It's inappropriate to label something negative that's done and continues to do a host of good things for the world. I'm an atheist, but feel that religion is necessary to society (though reprehensible in government). Community hinges on ritual, and any ritual hinges on the spiritual significance its adherents feel it has. Religion provides that significance in a way that no fabricated ceremony can: compare our culture's reaction to Christmas to its reaction to any of the various UN holidays.

Christian doctrine shouldn't be confused with the choices of Christian leaders or the practices of Christian cultures. Any criticism of it should respond to its dogma.

Yeah, but which UN holiday encourages capitalism as much and gets people free s**t? I mean, christmas is a poor example because its religious roots are so far gone and you're a fool if you deny it.

I personally think the world would function much better sans religion.

Heh, I like the comparison drawn to the UN holidays - it reminds me of an "EU anthem" I saw on our news/satire program yesterday.

In the United Kingdom currently, I can't help but see social problems that - despite being an avowed atheist - would be easily solved by a good batch of moral berating. Like Cass says, some form of religion or better still, adherence is necessary to maintain an impetus in society. Religion is only one of those factors - more often than not in industrialised societies or newly developing countries it is the pursuit of wealth or goods, whatever the detriment to the people at large. Surely religion can provide this AND give a small (if somewhat flawed) teaching of ethics at the same time?

The love of money is the root of all evil

I used to believe this, but now I believe the root of all evil is the pursuit of money to maintain social acceptance and adaptation... but that's a different argument altogether!

I mean, christmas is a poor example because its religious roots are so far gone and you're a fool if you deny it.

We've thoroughly imbued Christmas with features particular to our culture, it's true -- virtually none of the popular symbols we associate with the holiday have any real link with scripture or even to the church. While I acknowledge that it Christmas shopping has become a cornerstone of consumer culture, I think that it's another matter entirely to say that the exchange of money and goods has come to replace all the spiritual significance of the holiday.

tl;dr
http://www.exitmundi.nl

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Reckless disregard for childrens well being, women and nothing but utter contempt for other cultures.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
The love of money is the root of all evil
</DIV></DIV>

It's also the reason why our society is as well developed as it is. It's the reason why we have flatscreen TVs, a s**tload of clothes, as advanced technology as we do. Constantly trying to earn more, without breaking any laws, means satisfying the needs of other people with products or services and receive money from them for this. If someone pays $10k for a TV, they obviously value the product at least that much. Money is one of the major incentives that make it worth the effort trying to please others. I for one would certainly not work my ass of in school, if it weren't for the potential future monetary reward. Sure, having an education/good job and being generally hard working usually brings social status and well being, but being able to earn money is a very significant portion of why most people try as hard as they do. This whole "Capitalism is 3vil booohooo!" thing is just stupid. It seems most people don't understand it's thanks to capitalism we can enjoy many of the luxuries of today.

One argument against capitalism/consumerism is how it effects the climate. Sure, I agree that if everyone continues to consume and produce at an increasing pace, it does burden the environment. But, with the right govenmental interventions, I think this will turn around as a society reaches even higher levels of wealth. People will start to value the environtment as a good and people will be willing to spare money for a cleaner environment. If you haven't got enough to feed your family you probably won't give a damn, but the more developed a society is, the more it will care for relative luxuries such as a clean environment.

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What the Snarkpitters listen to!

The root of "evil," a word which I feel is spouted inappropriately in almost every instance of its use, is self-interest, which I feel is the root, to use your term, of nearly every action. An ancient Greek monist, introduced to our modern world, would probably declare that the basic substance of all matter is money. You are reading this sentence because money brought you education, the internet, computers and the Snarkpit -- not to mention electricity and shelter, among a host of other advantages. Money determines what you can and cannot do with your life, how people will treat you, how you will think of yourself. Your positions on the proper use of money will determine much of your politics. Like it or not -- and I think we should at least accept it -- money is, today, as essential to human life as water.

I've only ever known one person who stockpiled water, but he done that because he was sure the Russians were about to invade, and he said poisoning the water supply was the first thing they'd do.

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i eat paint

In history classes I was fed the notion that religion is never the problem. Like it's a poor, harmless and misunderstood treasure chest of moral wisdom, only abused by the mighty and powerful. History teachers seem to like that statement because it's so diplomatic and they won't have to discuss it with their students (or their student's parents).

Religion may be a logical consequence of all civilization, needed as an explaination for what cannot be fathomed rationally. It keeps your head clear from difficult and inexplainable questions. But today, almost everything religion was needed for hundreds or thousands of years ago has been replaced by better, scientific arguments, including modern ethics, far superior to the outdated and abstruse teachings in literature written 2000 years ago.

I do think that religion was necessary or at least inevitable at some point. But it's obsolete now. At least in its current form.

The problem is that, unlike science, which can evolve and change with new knowledge, religion is always dogmatic. You can't say: "Hey, what god told his disciples here is stupid, outrageous and wrong by today's standards, we should strike that!" No, it will always stay in there and children will be told it's wise and justly. They must not question God (or they will suffer eternal misery and pain in hell). They're under the moral dictatorship of an imaginary man. I can't help but find this to be a very troubling thought.

Hardly a historical tragedy has been the result of a single event or political motivation. It might be true that extremism in the Middle East is the result of oil-capitalism not religion, but, for example, this situation of women or the fatwa-based justice system isn't. Neither is the election of Bush because of his "Christian values". I don't see why religion should always be treated as a "secondary" cause, just because discussing it as something bad is considered tactless by... religion itself?

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Why snark works.

But it's obsolete now.

How would you respond, though, to my suggestion that religion, however dated or invalid, is useful? In my view, it encourages decent behavior among people who are incapable of real meditation on ethics, just as its traditions provide spiritual inspiration for people who are incapable of real meditation on metaphysics. To paraphrase Redwood, religion is a placeholder for rational, demonstrable theories on the natures of humanity and the universe; but isn't that placeholder desirable for the wide majority of the public, knowing they could never digest more substantial ideas? (Forget Hume, Whitehead and Russell -- the better part of our species can't understand the value of contraceptives.) In short, wouldn't you rather your local lowlife find Jesus than mug passers-by?

I think there are better alternatives. The way religion enforces itself is either through the promise of a dream world (heaven) or psychological terror (fear of hell, fear of non-existence after death). It might be what some people need as a motivation to follow any kind of moral guideline. But thinking it is a requirement for any serious motivation for decent behavior is quite a sad outlook to me.

Also a criminal can be a very religious person.

I'd rather see them finding true prospect in life than in a hypothetical after-life.

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Why snark works.

there's some good reading on the subject here. the best thing about it is that the guy seems to be 100% serious. funny as hell. (which may or may not be funny, according to your beliefs)

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i eat paint

Fishy that's the awesomest website I've seen in a long time.

The sun is a cube, not a sphere. It only appears to be a sphere because it is spinning at a high velocity. All suns (i.e., stars) are cubes. Darkness intentionally designed the universe like this because on a metaphysical level, cubes (or more specifically, their 90-degree right angles) create strife, confrontation, and confusion.

The Earth is hollow, with an inner sun
and a more advanced civilization than ours.
In fact, all planets are hollow and have inner
suns. Some of the Inner Earth people are
aware of Earth's outer surface, and others
are not.

One cannot travel to the North Pole or to the South Pole for two reasons:

1.) The North Pole and the South Pole do not exist. In their place are polar openings that lead into Inner Earth.

2.) Anyone en route to a polar opening is eventually stopped by Outer Earth guardsmen.

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o

...Neither is the election of Bush because of his "Christian values". I don't see why religion should always be treated as a "secondary" cause, just because discussing it as something bad is considered tactless by... religion itself?

Not sure what u said hear, but politicians use religion as a tool to manipulate the masses, noting more. And believe me,in the US, it's scary how many people blindly follow their political leaders purely base on their religious beliefs. People who need the fear of hell or the encouragement of heaven to do the moral things are lousy people. People should be teaching their children morals on how it effects others not only them selves.

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Reality has become a commodity.

reaper47 said:
The problem is that, unlike science, which can evolve and change with new knowledge, religion is always dogmatic. You can't say: "Hey, what god told his disciples here is stupid, outrageous and wrong by today's standards, we should strike that!" No, it will always stay in there and children will be told it's wise and justly. They must not question God (or they will suffer eternal misery and pain in hell). They're under the moral dictatorship of an imaginary man. I can't help but find this to be a very troubling thought.

This is not true at all. The Bible is reinterpreted and religious teachings adapt all the time in the face of modern society. This has been seen all throughout history. For example, you're not gonna find any Catholic that thinks the sun revolves around the Earth, despite the fact that Galileo was excommunicated for proving those very things hundreds of years ago. Do you really think every Christian religion treats the story of creation in the Bible as literal fact?

Granted, some modern day issues, such as gay marriage and abortion, are probably not going to be reinterpreted and accepted by mainstream religion, and some religions are less modernized than others cough Islam, Baptists cough, but to say that religious teachings never change is silly.

http://truthism.com/ said:
Human beings were created (that is, invented)
via genetic experiments that were conducted by
reptilian aliens. These reptilian aliens, also known
as the "Anunnaki" or the "Reptilians," still rule the
Earth to this day.

He is not serious, right? He even has a picture of the "reptilian aliens".

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Aaron's Stuff

That truthism page is awesome.

Also, I have to agree with Yak Fighter there, I got a little excited about this topic and should have relativised. But the thing with the sun revolving around the Earth... it took quite some time to... "convince" the church that it might be wrong. The pope, as far as I know, doesn't even denounce evolution these days.

I think religious stubbornness is more a hindrance than a true stopper for development. Just think of where heavily Islamic countries could be if it weren't for their extreme religiosity. Imagine a Dubai where you can't get a three months' sentence for "harassment of the airport floor" for doing push-ups (although Dubai is maybe one of the most modern and tolerant places in the Middle East).

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Why snark works.

reaper47 said:
The problem is that, unlike science, which can evolve and change with new knowledge, religion is always dogmatic. You can't say: "Hey, what god told his disciples here is stupid, outrageous and wrong by today's standards, we should strike that!" No, it will always stay in there and children will be told it's wise and justly. They must not question God (or they will suffer eternal misery and pain in hell). They're under the moral dictatorship of an imaginary man. I can't help but find this to be a very troubling thought.

This is not true at all. The Bible is reinterpreted and religious teachings adapt all the time in the face of modern society. This has been seen all throughout history. For example, you're not gonna find any Catholic that thinks the sun revolves around the Earth, despite the fact that Galileo was excommunicated for proving those very things hundreds of years ago. Do you really think every Christian religion treats the story of creation in the Bible as literal fact?
Granted, some modern day issues, such as gay marriage and abortion, are probably not going to be reinterpreted and accepted by mainstream religion, and some religions are less modernized than others cough Islam, Baptists cough, but to say that religious teachings never change is silly.

Yeah, but by saying that religion contradicts itself, because if the bible is the infallible word of God, then surely the meaning doesn't change?

RedWood said:
Some of the earlier gods (Greeks/Romans) were created and used as scape goats. "OO why did our crops dye." "We didn't pry to the god of rain enough". It gave them a wanted answer and the appearance of some kind of control. By praying or making a sacrifice, whether it be a pot or a eight year old girl, it gave a false sense of control witch is nice to have.
A lot of the more modern western religions are used as a form of government. They seek to control every aspect of their followers lives. And they will kill you if you argue with them.

Personally, I believe that the only reason why religion exists today is fear. People believe in a certain religion for there own personal salvation (not going to "hell"). Anyway, if god, this apparently nice and loving person did exist, would he send a good person to hell just because they didn't believe in religion? Does a person who believes in religion receive any benefits for believing? If we are so imperfect, than we can surely be excused for not believing in any form of god.

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Aaron's Stuff

French Toast said:
Yeah, but by saying that religion contradicts itself, because if the bible is the infallible word of God, then surely the meaning doesn't change?

What if God made a microwave burrito sooo large that even He couldn't eat it? He wouldn't be all powerful then... woah I just blew some minds!

Words on paper can and do have debatable meaning. Without God himself coming down and yelling in your ear exactly the way things should happen it'll be left up to interpretation.

Oh yadda yadda yadda, you're missing my point. If the divine word of God is the bible, how come two people both devoutly of the same religion can read it and come out with completely different interpretations? people extrapolate what they want to from it, these are the major holes in religion which are blatantly obvious for all to see.

Anyway, if god, this apparently nice and loving person did exist, would he send a good person to hell just because they didn't believe in religion?

Just to state it in this thread as I'm sure this point will come up often, the Bible actually does have a counter for the idea that a good God would never allow the world to be bad. The Book of Job basically advances that God is nonmoral, or that he doesn't behave according to our systems of morality, or our sense of who deserves what. Essentially, the rules he gives us are not the same rules he keeps for himself. He defends his rules, of course, by saying that we could never understand them.

With the whole 'everything had to have something that came before it' thing, isn't time just a matter of perspective? I mean, time is just a way for living things to make sense of the world. Maybe it's not more of a solid, real thing than your perception of colours.

Of course if that's true then maybe things in the future can influence things in the past, or they're interlinked or something. Maybe there are kind of weird patterns that effect the order everything occurs in, like maybe there's a bias toward intelligence/ life developing in one place or something.

Personally I find it hard to believe that intelligent civilisation just randomly evolved here but nowhere else in the universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox). It's a bit like when you think of all the trillions of possible ways things could have gone that would have led to you not being born, whereas there was only one, ridiculously unlikely chain of events that would lead to your birth. And the latter happened, just by chance.

It'd be like waking up one morning to find the winning lottery tickets from ten different countries that had just happened to fall from the buyers' pockets outside your house, because those lottery ticket buyers were all taking random day breaks in your town/ country. And then Richard Dawkins would just reply to that "well, it had to happen eventually, to someone.".

The universe is evlolving at a trillion billion zillion light years per nanosecond :biggrin:

If something happened, the probability that it didn't happen is zero.

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Why snark works.

If something happened, the probability that it didn't happen is zero.

?\(?_o)/?