State of the Union!

Better vote for the Democrats! BTW this is really anti-Bush, before you start whinging about anti-USA sentiments :smile:

...

0: Number of funerals or memorials that President Bush has attended for soldiers killed in Iraq

100: Number of fund-raisers attended by Bush or Vice-President Dick Cheney in 2003

(... Iraq blah blah...)

1983: The year in which Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam Hussein a pair of golden spurs

45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 11 September attacks on the US

$127 billion: Amount of US budget surplus in the year that Bush became President in 2001

$374 billion: Amount of US budget deficit in the fiscal year for 2003

1st: This year's deficit is on course to be the biggest in United States history

$1.58 billion: Average amount by which the US national debt increases each day

$23,920: Amount of each US citizen's share of the national debt as of 19 January 2004

1st: The record for the most bankruptcies filed in a single year (1.57 million) was set in 2002

10: Number of solo press conferences that Bush has held since beginning his term. His father had managed 61 at this point in his administration, and Bill Clinton 33

1st: Rank of the US worldwide in terms of greenhouse gas emissions per capita

$113 million: Total sum raised by the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign, setting a record in American electoral history

$130 million: Amount raised for Bush's re-election campaign so far

$200m: Amount that the Bush-Cheney campaign is expected to raise in 2004

$40m: Amount that Howard Dean, the top fund-raiser among the nine Democratic presidential hopefuls, amassed in 2003

28: Number of days holiday that Bush took last August, the second longest holiday of any president in US history (Recordholder: Richard Nixon)

13: Number of vacation days the average American worker receives each year

3: Number of children convicted of capital offences executed in the US in 2002. America is only country openly to acknowledge executing children

1st: As Governor of Texas, George Bush executed more prisoners (152) than any governor in modern US history

2.4 million: Number of Americans who have lost their jobs during the three years of the Bush administration

221,000: Number of jobs per month created since Bush's tax cuts took effect. He promised the measure would add 306,000

1,000: Number of new jobs created in the entire country in December. Analysts had expected a gain of 130,000

1st: This administration is on its way to becoming the first since 1929 (Herbert Hoover) to preside over an overall loss of jobs during its complete term in office

9 million: Number of US workers unemployed in September 2003

80%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce now unemployed

55%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce unemployed before the war

43.6 million: Number of Americans without health insurance in 2002

130: Number of countries (out of total of 191 recognised by the United Nations) with an American military presence

40%: Percentage of the world's military spending for which the US is responsible

$10.9 million: Average wealth of the members of Bush's original 16-person cabinet

88%: Percentage of American citizens who will save less than $100 on their 2006 federal taxes as a result of 2003 cut in capital gains and dividends taxes

$42,000: Average savings members of Bush's cabinet are expected to enjoy this year as a result in the cuts in capital gains and dividends taxes

$42,228: Median household income in the US in 2001

$116,000: Amount Vice-President Cheney is expected to save each year in taxes

44%: Percentage of Americans who believe the President's economic growth plan will mostly benefit the wealthy

700: Number of people from around the world the US has incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

1st: George W Bush became the first American president to ignore the Geneva Conventions by refusing to allow inspectors access to US-held prisoners of war

+6%: Percentage change since 2001 in the number of US families in poverty

1951: Last year in which a quarterly rise in US military spending was greater than the one the previous spring

54%: Percentage of US citizens who believe Bush was legitimately elected to his post

1st: First president to execute a federal prisoner in the past 40 years. Executions are typically ordered by separate states and not at federal level

9: Number of members of Bush's defence policy board who also sit on the corporate board of, or advise, at least one defence contractor

35: Number of countries to which US has suspended military assistance after they failed to sign agreements giving Americans immunity from prosecution before the International Criminal Court

$300 million: Amount cut from the federal programme that provides subsidies to poor families so they can heat their homes

$1 billion: Amount of new US military aid promised Israel in April 2003 to offset the "burdens" of the US war on Iraq

58 million: Number of acres of public lands Bush has opened to road building, logging and drilling

200: Number of public-health and environmental laws Bush has attempted to downgrade or weaken

29,000: Number of American troops - which is close to the total of a whole army division - to have either been killed, wounded, injured or become so ill as to require evacuation from Iraq, according to the Pentagon

90%: Percentage of American citizens who said they approved of the way George Bush was handling his job as president when asked on 26 September, 2001

53%: Percentage of American citizens who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president when asked on 16 January, 2004

Taken from http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=482947

holy cow, im not reading all that

Fantastic statistics. America rocks! :razz:

But seriously, I don't like the Democrats either. If only there was a third party I could vote for...

I'm sure that the pro-bush people can pull out just as many positive statistics, and I'm sure you could find equally damning statistics for any president in the history of the US. Statistics by themselves mean nothing.

....nice stats....now what the f**k are ya gonna do with em??....problem is, the democrats have thier own twisted sense of morality and underhanded sheit as well....damned if ya do, damned if ya dont.....CJ, lets start another party...the PIT party....tell em all to go f**k themselves eh?

i want to know what yer trying to convey here, in yer comfy little flat (assumed) across the big pond..... ya knew i couldnt let ya rest on that one man.... :wink:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Campaignjunkie said:
But seriously, I don't like the Democrats either. If only there was a third party I could vote for...

Hmm, same thing over here, although we have a third party and they suck :biggrin:

And true, statistics don't mean a lot on their own, but a whole pile of them do, especially when most of them are simple facts :razz: I'm just trying to convey that Bush is a bit s**t really, and I can't understand why anyone would like him still :/ From my 'flat', it seems at this rate the thing he'll go down in history is f**king up the world either through incompetence, bitterness, or ties to defence industry- I have so far lived a life of freedom and safety, and I'll be dammed if he goes and makes me lose that. This war on terror being for my 'freedom', my ass...

Doc, perhaps you'll give me some positive reasons to think about in the interests of an 'even arguement'?

I'm not nuts about the Democratic candidates, but Bush is an out-and-out f**k any way you look at it.

45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 11 September attacks on the US

Holy Christmas, people are actually that stupid over there? I pity you Americans :smile:

Kage_Prototype said:

45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 11 September attacks on the US

Holy Christmas, people are actually that stupid over there? I pity you Americans :smile:

We americans are not stupid! Now excuse me, I need to go give money to countrys we bombed and outlaw gays and minorities. Dont forget my love for guns.

"I need to go give money to countrys we bombed and outlaw gays and minorities."

Yes. Let's not forget all those minorities we ignorant Americans have outlawed... oh, wait.

Cause a Democrat like say LBJ would never ever get us involved in an unpopular war where we don't know all the facts.

And if you read up on your Alexander Hamilton economic theory, you'll see a national debt isn't necessarily a bad thing.

thats the thing Lep, i dont wanna argue....dammit, that is NOT why i come to yer site man....i can not sit here and tell you with a straight face that yer full of s**t, because quite frankly, yer not.....and believe me, it bothers the s**t out of me to be forced to read this "banging" on the US...i personally do not have the audacity to sit here and tell you how f**ked up YOUR little piece of the world is, that wouldnt be .... cricket. plain and simply, you know its f**ked, i know its f**ked, we are gonna hand MY KIDS a big pile of crap to deal with, and that frosts my ass....i dont need stats shoved in my face to know that Bush is full o' s**t, dean is a howdy-doodie type arrogant moron, or kerry (this one bothers me the most actually) uses his vietnam veteranship to play on the sorrow filled hearts of America....not a f**kin one of them holds a candle to a ...John F. Kennedy....and for the record, LBJ was almost as shady as the rest of them (do yer homework cash bud, your generation doesnt know the HALF of the s**t that went on....remember...vietnam?) .....

the point being, its all very sad, way the f**k out of hand, and no ones ass is any prettier than ours....but, there are worse....far worse. bank on it. it has developed into a nearly uncontrollable monstrosity....

and what absolutely frosts my ass is, i really cant do a f**king thing about it....i could raise holy hell, end up in prison, or some sheit, at my families expense.....it would hurt them the most.

kage, be glad yer not sitting across a table from me having a conversation about this....i guarantee you they'd have to pry me off you with a f**kin crowbar, you arrogant little blighter....

bah...ya wanna fight?...we'll argue till the cows come home, but Lep, we've been here before, which is why i cant understand why you'd bring it up again....i dont need you to tell me how f**ked up my world is....fact is, you barely scratched the surface....forgive me sir, because i refuse to reciprocate.

Peace.

Doc Brass...

Americans are stupid- though we don't have a monopoly on it. Besides, I know another stupid English-speaking country that went along with us despite massive protests. Glad to know democracy doesn't work over there, either!

It gets to a point of being really f**king pathetic when Americans call themselves stupid. What they really mean is everyone in the US except their enlightened liberal selves is stupid - because the people of Europe obviously posesses a massively superior collective intelligence to us yanks :rolleyes:

Untill history prooves otherwise, I'm going to trust that the administration is doing what it thinks is best as far as forign policy is concerned. I do not, and cannot know enough about the issues to judge those actions. no one can without a high level security clearence.

what I am disapointed with is Bush's inability to cut spending at the same time he cut taxes. I'm very happy with tax cuts, but if you havn't got the courage to slash social programs with them... huge national debt. Plus there's his dumb idea to revive human spaceflight. I support space exploration, but at this point, putting humans up there has no scientific benifit.

I would guess that there are indeed a huge number of stupid people in the world, but I do not think they reside in any particular country or party.

Cassius said:
It gets to a point of being really f**king pathetic when Americans call themselves stupid. What they really mean is everyone in the US except their enlightened liberal selves is stupid :rolleyes:

Yes, I think you got it pretty much exactly right!

Dr Brasso said:
and for the record, LBJ was almost as shady as the rest of them (do yer homework cash bud, your generation doesnt know the HALF of the s**t that went on....remember...vietnam?)

I think you missed what I meant. I was being sarcastic to the bone when I said that, I am not an LBJ fan at all.

Anyway, it's nice to know that twice as much money will now be spent on abstinence programs, because quite honestly there's so many people out there that would be abstinent if they just knew it was an option but weren't told about it cause we weren't spending enough money on it. </sarcasm>

In primary news, looks like we're down a Gephardt, and Dean didn't even place second! Some crazy mix-em-ups are going on around here, we'll have to see how it goes. Edwards got second on not much money, which is good for Dems because they need a candidate who can effectively campaign on smaller funds. The amount of money Bush will be sinking into re-election is absurd and there's just no way a Dem could come within a three day's drive of it.

I missed the actual speech, but I heared the comentary on NPR. Abstinence? Gay Marrige? who really gives a f**k?

cash, to you sir, my humble and most heartfelt apologies ....i guess ya caught me in an...."attempting to restrain" moment.....i 'spose i should know better... :wink:

Doc B.....

EDIT>>> and yes, that was probably the most devisive and overtly politicaly oriented speech ive heard in freakin' years....

The number of times Bush got a standing ovation from only half the room was hilarious.

I'm just waiting for Michael Moors (hope I spelt that right) documentary on 9/11.

Think bowling for columbine (or any Moor documentary?s) but bashing bush in an intelligent manor.

Not to mention Bush waging his personal war, lying, literally, to the public to get them on his side as he now tries to grasp on to the public claiming that he can finish it.

What a crock of sh*t.

However, the nice thing about bush is he's comedic gold; such as when Lewis Black ridicules him :smile:

As for the candidate elects . . . it will be a dark day indeed.

Michael Moore + Intelligent = Oxymoron.

lol. lets make it opinionated then.

Statistics by themselves mean nothing.

Yeah, a few statistics you can ignore. Statistics on things that don't matter that much you can ignore, but that list is kind of overwhelming...

America has a military presence in 130 of 192 countries? s**t, next thing they'll be starting WW3.

Cassius said:
Michael Moore + Intelligent = Oxymoron.

So lol, cass.

I know you feel (or is that how you felt?). Europeans didn't used to bother me until I came to forums like these... but then I decided that rather than listen to things like this, I would just show up less often. I think that even if the US by some miracle managed to fix the world's problems, this American's are stupid thing would still be going on. So I don't let it bother me, especially when I can't do anything about it. What the hell am I gonna do, threaten people until they think the same way as I do? That's facism, and that's un-American.

In summary: Let them have their fun. They will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

PS: Europeans don't really bother me, just the dumb-asses who think that they are so much better and smarter etc. just because they have Shakespeare to hide behind. Shakespeare was overrated anyway.

In a curious turn of events, an encyclopedia from the future floats out through a wormhole in space and lands at 2-bits feet. One of the entries read: "They were the first against the wall when the revolution came."

PS2: I'm getting awfully bored now, so I did a terrible spoof on Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams. Funny guy. And Brittish too!

Anyway, if you got nothing out of this post, that's probably because there was nothing to get. Or is there?

2-bits said:
PS: Europeans don't really bother me, just the dumb-asses who think that they are so much better and smarter etc. just because they have Shakespeare to hide behind. Shakespeare was overrated anyway.

Yeah, I hate the way the French and Germans and Spanish and Swiss and Austrians and Dutch and etc... always hide behind old Shakespeare!

Cash Car Star said:
The number of times Bush got a standing ovation from only half the room was hilarious.

Heh, I'm going to have to watch this somewhere..

Well the worst president the US could have next term IMO would be Bush re-elected.

Bush has been vying to make America the only country in the world immune to all laws. They can execute/capture/imprison almost anybody at will, they can use military force when and where they want, they can make a bunch of rules then break them the next day.

Also, you have to wonder what they are secretly planning by having large ammounts of their military all over the world. And I dont think its to provide quick responce in case of a war. Because they havent done much for Isreal..

Just my opinion...

Oh, the military around the world thing, I'd guess a proportion of that was UN/NATO related peace-keeping...

so....can we just agree that the union is in a ....state? i vote we pass on it for awhile, and see who in the field f**ks up the worst, or the soonest, or the most, or.....

you get my point yes?.... :smile:

Doc B.... :dodgy:

TBH I think we're all reasonally intelligent and articulate people here, and i'm sure we can appreciate that Americas affairs are always going to be an issue for debate - simply because they are the world superpower. Europe doesn't get mentioned because to be honest, apart from our occasional EC/EU Vs USA trade fights, not a lot of international significance happens over here - in the USA, it does.

Everything the Americans do is going to have a knock on effort on just about every other country in the world, in one way or another. Knowing this, i'd be more concerned about the rising American deficit (ours is growing in the UK with the tax/spend/waste policy) and the state of the economy over there. The war is over, there's nothing we can say now to change any of the Iraqi, British, American lives lost - no matter how strongly you feel about it, it's done, and it's now the problem of the occupying armies.

I myself look now to America and Britains social and economic policies - that's truly what is going to plot the future for us, our children and their children after that. Let's hope the presidents, prime ministers and the public all do the right thing..

The economy would be in a bit better shape if investors and businessmen didn't act like damn fools during the whole dotcom boom - investing in companies with terrible business plans, expecting internet ad revenue to be worthwhile, and the general excesses that brand new ceo's reveled in, even though it was obviously unaffordable.

Bush definitely could have passed a better tax cut though.

just the dumb-asses who think that they are so much better and smarter etc

OK, fair enough. The thing is, lets say it turned out the statistics Lep posted were actually for the UK. Now my instant reaction would be one of disgrace... I mean executing three children? I would have no hesitation in saying any member of parliment that allowed that is out of their mind. If you want to go and find one of the many shocking statistics their are about the UK, go ahead, I know there are plenty. The difference is, if you tell me about them, I will say "yeah that sucks doesn't it, Blair (or whoever) is an idiot", whereas most of you guys from the US are saying "stop having a go at america", or "what do can we do about it". You have to see that when most of you guys never seem to want to admit that there is anything wrong in america, it does seem kind of silly. The other reaction is "yeah we have some problems, but so do you, so you can't tell us about them", and this doesn't really work either to me...

Of course I don't want you to all start saying 'omg america sucks!!1', but I just can't believe that nobody bar Brasso expressed any kind of disbeliefe or disgrace at any of the statistics posted by the Lep monster.

Nothing good ever comes from these discussions. Interesting facts though. :smile:

democrats are ripping each other to shreds over in the corner while bush stands aside and laughs... considering how our electoral college system works, bush has this re-election in the bag.

if you don't agree with me, yer a communist. :ar15firing:

? posted by 2-bits

PS: Europeans don't really bother me, just the dumb-asses who think that they are so much better and smarter etc. just because they have Shakespeare to hide behind. Shakespeare was overrated anyway.
Yeah, I hate the way the French and Germans and Spanish and Swiss and Austrians and Dutch and etc... always hide behind old Shakespeare!

I was referring to, in a kind of round about way, to the English. Because the French and the Germans etc obviously can't hide behind him, can they?

But whatever, I really don't care either way. It was just something I posted to kill some time before class.

TBH I think we're all reasonally intelligent and articulate people here, and i'm sure we can appreciate that Americas affairs are always going to be an issue for debate - simply because they are the world superpower. Europe doesn't get mentioned because to be honest, apart from our occasional EC/EU Vs USA trade fights, not a lot of international significance happens over here - in the USA, it does.

Everything the Americans do is going to have a knock on effort on just about every other country in the world, in one way or another. Knowing this, i'd be more concerned about the rising American deficit (ours is growing in the UK with the tax/spend/waste policy) and the state of the economy over there. The war is over, there's nothing we can say now to change any of the Iraqi, British, American lives lost - no matter how strongly you feel about it, it's done, and it's now the problem of the occupying armies.

I myself look now to America and Britains social and economic policies - that's truly what is going to plot the future for us, our children and their children after that. Let's hope the presidents, prime ministers and the public all do the right thing..

Gwil, that was beautiful.

edit:

Also: Scary Jeff: Most Americans have to listen to enough anti-American sentiment from their fellow Americans (esp. high-school students). Most of these people aren't very well informed on the issues, some of which don't even know that we bombed Afgahnistan (no joke). So after dealing with this kind of ignorance all day, it does rather irritate most of us patriots when we see people in other countries insulting the US. Now, I am NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE IGNORANT. I can not think of any one here who is as ignorant as some of the people I meet on an everyday basis. Most of you are very well informed and up to speed. I'm just letting y'all know that that's why most Americans (on this board, anyway) get in a snit when they see this kind of thing.

Of course, with some people, probably the AOL type of user, they defend America because they feel that it's their patriotic duty to defend it, but they're just idiots. You can tell by their spelling. And I don't mean like the typos that someone will inevitably point out so they quote my quote about spelling and be a smartass. You know what I mean. If you don't, you're probably one of them.

If you did not understand the above, then understand this. Then go kill yourself: Most Americans think as thus: "We don't make an entire thread insulting their countries leaders. Why must they make one insulting ours?" Cause' we're a superpower, I know, but still, it's maddening.

scary_jeff said:
Of course I don't want you to all start saying 'omg america sucks!!1', but I just can't believe that nobody bar Brasso expressed any kind of disbeliefe or disgrace at any of the statistics posted by the Lep monster.

Well Jeff, I did not comment on the statistics because it is supremely easy to lie with stats. take the 3 "children" who were exicuted. They could easily be 17 year-olds who killed their parents, choped them up, and put them in the freezer... I have no problem with executing someone like that. Besides, americas death penalty is an oft quoted statistic by europeans on how barbaric the US is. it's a cultural rift; live with it.

in regaurd to the economic stats, I don't believe that the president has much to do with the econemy under his term. The econemy is such a massive complex entity, nothing short of an act of god (or Alen greenspan) is going to change it in as miniscule a period as 4 years.

There is nothing overwhelming about that list of statistics. without full disclosure on how the catagories being measured were defined, and case by case studies (the three children) they are completely meaningless.

edit: try this on for size http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393310728/102-4094875-7372137?v=glance

I've never actualy read it, but my knowlage of statistics from my chemistry course work is quite enough.

2-bits said:
"We don't make an entire thread insulting their countries leaders. Why must they make one insulting ours?"

I wish you would :/ We can only think of big ears & cheesey grins about blair so far.

Gwil said:
simply because they are the world superpower.

I was watching a documentary a few days ago and they didnt reffer to themselves as a superpower but as a megapower.

"We are the megapower of the world" by some American dumbass IMO.

Tracer, you are probably right about them being 17 (or 16). I'm actually quite surprised that they were executed at that age, because over here we get the impression that people stay on death row for 10+ years! But I'm sorry, execution at that age is simply wrong, 'cultural rift' or not. You are not giving them a chance to repent or say sorry or come to terms with what they've done and try to change. And as a christian man, Bush is also doing them a dis-service by allowing their lives to be taken in the first place, and not letting them live a 'full' life and find god (i.e. he is sending them to hell, which is not actually a punishment for disobeying the commandments, but for not believing in god/christ).

Anyways, screw you guys, I'm going to get drunk now! :beerchug:

(ps I'm as atheist as you can get)

Each and everyone of us is on this planet for a purpose. Now Im not saying this because of God cause I dont believe. But we all have a purpose in life, a reason for being which we must discover. But if we are executed as minors then what was the point in living?

I don't give a f**k about your purpose. if you prove yourself to be a danger to society, you need to be taken out of it. perminantly.

IMO that's a pretty arogant opinion WC. you are a collection of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorous, and few other minor contributors; just like anything else. what makes you so damn special? More so than say, a grain of sand? sure your more complex but big deal. how do you rationalize such a grandiose opinion of humanity without belief in a higher power?

sigh, if you put that way.. then there is no reason for 99% of the population to live their 60-odd year lives. in the inifinity of space and time, our lifespan litterally nothing =/

i am for capital punishment, (for cases in which an example must be made.. ie, terrorism, treason, etc.) however, when someone is executed for killing a few other people, it's no longer a punishment.. its just a public spectacle put on the satisfy the public. i mean... is it really a PUNISHMENT if they are dead? im sure if capital punishment wasn't FATAL, they would learn their lesson.

about minors and capital punishment... it's just silly. if they cant vote, have concensual sex, or smoke because they dont "have enough sense" - why the hell can they be held fully responsible for a capital offense? do minors only prove their maturity after killing somebody?

You guys have to look at it both ways. You say then we are as nothing so then why cant we die. Personally, I dont give a f**k if I die tomorow in some accident, cause s**t happends. But to have someone else order my life ended?

If we dont have reason enough to live, why is it so easy to say he can die? What is the difference between life and death? Executions are just a cowards way of dealing with a problem. Execute someone and he goes to the afterlife (or whatever comes after life). But if you put said person in jail, that does more harm to the criminal. Because he gets to suffer.

IMO that's a pretty arogant opinion WC. you are a collection of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, phosphorous, and few other minor contributors; just like anything else. what makes you so damn special? More so than say, a grain of sand? sure your more complex but big deal. how do you rationalize such a grandiose opinion of humanity without belief in a higher power?

I claim that the very concept of value - what makes something special - is generated by people. It is of course possible to believe instead that values (and indeed morals) are generated by God. But I see no metaphysical need to appeal to an authority, divine or otherwise, for our values. Indeed, I think of it as abdicating the responsibility and challenge of deciding for yourself.

You can perfectly well believe in the value of life without believing in God (or any divinity). You can even believe (though I do not) in some mysterious over-arching purpose without appealing to the existence of God.

It's not a simple choice between Christianity and nihilism. Honestly TB, I thought you were more subtle than that :/

Maybe it's because nihilism appeals to me in some strange way. to me, wthout davinity, there is only entropy. The second law of thermodynamics rules all. at the core, I am far more a scientist than a ophilosopher.

Humans can, and do put a value on many things, including life. Yet how can you believe in a preordained purpose for a single life if that purpose is defined by humanity? for that to hold the purposes and direction of humanity as a whole must be predetermained.

Can you explain to me what I am missing? I challenged Wild Card's assertion to see what logic was behind it.

There are many possibilities that do not blatantly entail a logical contradiction. Here's some:

1. God exists and confers value/purpose/morals.
2. God does not exist; there are no values/purposes/morals.
3. God does not exist. There are values and morals, but no predetermined ultimate purpose.
4. God does not exist. There are values and morals; everyone has an ultimate purpose.
5. God exists, but does not confer values/morals/purposes.

Each of these possibilities is logically consistent. For a start, it is possible that God (as generally described in Christian doctrine) does not exist, but some other divine being does exist (and confers a supreme purpose of some sort).

It also seems possible that there is no divine being, but we still exist "for a reason". Some holists might characterise life as the universe attempting to understand itself. I think it's a nice image actually, though not one I take very seriously.

I guess I must be missing the point again, because except for the last possibility, it seems as though you are agreeing with me. I was never arguing for the nesscity of a christian style God, simply that for there to be a predetermained purpose there must be somthing to define that purpose.

The last idea is interesting, but remindes me too much of "Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy" in which the earth was setup specificly as a super computer for determaining the meaning of life.