Tricoil

http://www.kungfusquirrel.net/beta_downloads/dm_tricoil_preview.zip

Known issues:

X- Skybox sucks
X- Lighting is horrible, particularly environment lighting.
X- Layout incomplete
X- No weapons or items
X- bugged func_illusionary rendermode
X- Incredibly bland
X- Horrible map :razz:

What I want critiques on:
X- Architecture
X- Current layout/flow (mobility, mainly).

Wow, if you know all those things are wrong already, why don't you fix them before posting?

Aside from that, though, this map looks REALLY great! The textures are cool, and the lighting isnt so bad (except in a few places where I can't see, I.E. - a spiral staircse) but I saw at least one area that came to a dead-end (maybe you are going to add on to that) which kind of ruins the "flow". Alsothe rooms are BARREN! There is absolutely nothing in them! Please dont fill 'em up with crates, but it is kind of odd to be in a spaceship or whatever and see absolutely nothing besides the walls, etc.

Horrible map... Sounds like a keeper . Will post some impressions later. For now, get back to Nightwatch! cracks whip

EDIT:

The curved dome bits clip movement occasionally (especially at the bottom of that circular pit thing). Might want to get rid of some of the railings on the edges, as the player wouldn't really get too much damage from falling anyway. Some railings in other rooms weren't really too useful either.

Agree with Skeletor somewhat; while the walls and ceiling and floor are well-decorated, there doesn't actually seem to be something IN the rooms (i.e. computers, support columns, etc.). It's like someone/something just decided to build a bunch of high-tech empty rooms and hallways.

Architecture is nice, with a consistent theme/style throughout the rooms that have things in them. But you really need more landmarks/unique set pieces around the map to make navigation easier. The style is just too consistant/uniform that I never really knew where I was. I wandered around for a few minutes and still couldn't really get the layout too well. Maybe it's just me. :smile:

Looks too cramped from what I can see though, and it would be way too easy to run away/hide/lose someone. That's the problem with architecture like that I suppose - TOO much cover. With the close-quarters kind of layout, I imagine the shotgun would dominate this map completely. Could use some more level-on-level action too.

Oh, and some r_speed problems. Peaked around 1000 in some places. Overall, some nice work. :razz:

I really liked the over all architecture and theme.



I liked the architecture in the above area the most, but the Rs are high.



I liked this area very much as well. The windows and such have a nice look and feel to them.



These areas would fit better into the theme you have (in my opinion) if they weren't ramps.



What's up with this area? It seems that you made a small ramp or something out of clip brushes, you just walk on up into the wall.

Other then all that, everyone else is giving good suggestions and feed back.

Keep it up.

1. Your over-use of the plain grey texture is sickening :smile:

2. The layout seems a bit random, it's all a bit confusing
sometimes, and the packed rooms don't help. It's one of those maps where there isn't any actual "arena" area where the fighting will most likely be condensed, you know? It's just a bunch of tightly-packed corridors seemingly cut and pasted together. I think the domed roof rooms would be suitable for an arena if they were larger.

In terms of mobility, it doesn't flow well. You're always turning a corner, it doesnt feel right. And everything's so god-damned packed! :smile:

3. Stairs intead of ramps, stairs look better and the ramps look crap. Try adding a few little lights on the steps as well. Use your knowledge of good lighting from NS man! :smile:

Thats all I can think of right now.

wish I could have errors like that...

Dammnit! I'm using the exact same set of textures at the moment.

/starts stealing architecture ideas :wink:

Seriously though, looks really cool from the screenshots (i'll download tonight and have a play), lots of nice shapes being thrown about. Maybe replace the light textures though, they look a little out of place next to the other textures :/

I love some of the architecture, especially all those holes in the roof :smile: I still feel this texture set is too relentlessly grey, even with the rusty orange floor texture you've thrown in. Good coloured lighting might help.

The only trouble with all your fancy architecture is that there are plenty of places to get stuck. Judicious clip-brushing could be handy, but it won't be easy to get the balance right between "smoothing flow" and "intrusive".

The map flows well, but I feel it is just a little too cramped. As with Faction, it feels empty and dead :/ It doesn't help that the floor texture gives the default concrete footstep sound. Some moving stuff and sounds, maybe?

I personally think its a bit cramped in places & it just needs more textures that the shaderlab set.

the textures are tasty

but theyre still kinda samey, even if u have put them to extremely good use :smile:

The layout seems at this stage most excellent. The way the hallways snake around and connect everywhere is very nice.

The architecture is sharp although obviously uneven, with some rooms having very complex details and others with zilch.

More texture variation is a must. The gray stuff can be the base, but there needs to be more variety in the colors on the walls and ceilings. Stuff like having the gray textures used on supports and pillars framing the different color walls, that sort of thing.

The cramped space in the map is fine if that's what you're going for. Some bigger rooms may be good for a nice open combat area.

I must say I am impressed with the construction of those rounded rooms as I have never managed to build them correctly, let alone have aligned textures and good details.

andrew, you know i respect you and your work immensly.....i really love yer eye for new and exciting architecture, but youve beat that texture set into the ground bud.....i really,really wish i was talented enough to grace you with an outstanding new set, something that would enhance your skillz, but alas, i cannot at this point....but im working on it.... :wink:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Hope you don't mind but I decided not to download the map for now as I don't want it to influence the map i'm working on (I don't want to be accused of copying anything etc.). I'm sure there will be some similarities due to the same textures but I don't want it to seem like a wholesale rip :smile:

Good luck with the map though :smile:

I really wish I had the time to take a look and comment on this, but unfortunately I'm drowning in coursework at the moment, and then I'm away on holiday, so it will be a week or two before I get the chance :sad:

The pics Crono posted are truly amazing... nice work!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Im going to have to agree with Mr. Ben this would be your 3rd map with these textures.. But i Deff love the first two pic's Crono posted.. you have always had that eye for where things just pop out of everywhere.

I mean i really cant comment on anything cause u know u need more lighting/color variation... Red lighting really kicks it here. Expesially with the grey.

When people complain about stairs.. I found when i was making DM_Ominous... stairs did not go along with the theme at all.. so i suggest keeping the ramps but maybe add some things to them to spice it.

The bottom left pic that crono posted out of the 4 thing is a classic KungFuSquirell architectual piece. I see it alot in ur maps. Its signature so keep it but maybe pull the floor down where the little piece of texture variation is by the door. It would do wonders to that section i think.

Thats all for now till i run throught map... Good luck man

Mazy holds the record for most repetitive - SEVEN MAPS IN A ROW released with almost the exact same theme and textures.

Crackerjack said:
Im going to have to agree with Mr. Ben this would be your 3rd map with these textures..

That was Brasso... :biggrin:

Cassius said:
Mazy holds the record for most repetitive - SEVEN MAPS IN A ROW released with almost the exact same theme and textures.

After like the third time playing a map the textures and theme get ignored and all that matters is the level design and playability. It wouldn't matter if de_dust2 was grayscale and had 4 textures, people would still play it for the hot hot action.

Yak_Fighter said:
It wouldn't matter if de_dust2 was grayscale and had 4 textures, people would still play it for the hot hot action.

Reminds me of a little experiment I did a year or so ago:

Not too appealing, eh?

Well.

To be honest. Those ramps aren't too bad for the area, I just figured they'd look better as stairs. However, there is one ram I think you should change to stairs.


Because, look over at the left side, that opening leads down to another area . . . and they are stairs. It doesn't make sense to have stairs next to a ramp (unless your map is handicap accessible, which is fine.) I just figured it should be consistent.

But over all, so far this is a great map. I can't believe how many maps I've seen, for any game, that are just slapped together, architecture and all. They look as good as they are fun. . . (bad).

But, your map here, seems very consistent with the ship theme. in which case a lot of things would be metal and grey. something you might want to try that would probably make it better. is take some of the grey wall textures and make them look like they have pain cracking and peeling on them. Or colored lines for direction. I think something like that would dramatically change the way this map looks right now.

Over all, keep it up.

[EDIT]

CJ: I wonder how annoying that would be if everything was a null texture lol

[/EDIT]

AAAAHHH IT BURNS

OMFGZ BST DUST RETEXt0R Ev3R

LOL, I'd play it, but just for the novelty factor.

Leperous said:
AAAAHHH IT BURNS

(when he pees)

I agree with the comment about beating the texture set into the ground, but the map still looks good. I don't think anyone here would argue against the suggestion that you have some of the best architecture skills in the HL community.

Unfortunately, to be blunt, the layout isn't good. It's just hallways. Damn good looking hallways, but they're still flat passages with one way in and one way out.The only place where vertical combat is possible is in the middle coil, and it just feels awkward. I really think you're going to have to tear this thing apart in order to get a good flow going.

Nobody else seems to have such grave concerns with this though, so I'm thinking my problems with it are due to the fact that I'm used to UT2003. UT2003 and HL are very different games, and the need for a classic deathmatch layout with open arenas and z-axis variation doesn't seem to be as necessary in HL as it is in games such as UT or Quake. Maybe my criticisms are unfounded.

In the end it's your creation, so do what you feel is best for it. You've made plenty of levels in the past and I expect you're going to make many more in the future (And get paid to do so). You're not going to please every player with every level.

Campaignjunkie said:

Yak_Fighter said:
It wouldn't matter if de_dust2 was grayscale and had 4 textures, people would still play it for the hot hot action.

Reminds me of a little experiment I did a year or so ago:

Not too appealing, eh?

I'd play it. I usually run my maps in all aaatriggers first anyways before I mess them up with crappy texturing.

Only cj would ever do that. :razz: Oh yeah, if you'd like some texturing edits Andrew as i've noticed a lot of people have commented on the overuse of this set i'd be happy to give it a go. I can't promise anything if you risk it and say yes as i'm not the best ever but hey, the offer is there and i'm always looking for practise :smile:

SuperCrazy said:
...the layout isn't good. It's just hallways.

Nobody else seems to have such grave concerns with this though, so I'm thinking my problems with it are due to the fact that I'm used to UT2003. UT2003 and HL are very different games

Deathmatch is deathmatch no matter what the engine - UT, Q3, HL, whatever.

I found the flow to be ok but its too tight and narrow, even allowing for clipping off all the wall edges it'll still be a pain to nav. It needs much wider corridors with at least a couple of arena style areas for circle strafing and a bit of gameplay variation.

LOL @ dust, now all you need is the players reskinned with the trigger tex.

beer hunter said:
Deathmatch is deathmatch no matter what the engine - UT, Q3, HL, whatever.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Different scales, different physics, different game/player speed, different weapons, and lots of other things. This map (Tricoil) would not even remotely work well in Quake 3, or probably UT either. Both require much more open environments and different considerations. Likewise, a Quake 3 map would not work in Half-Life too well because of less cover, more open spaces, etc.

If DM was the same no matter what the game or engine, then everything would play like Quake 1. So CJ is right.

Campaignjunkie said:
Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Different scales, different physics, different game/player speed, different weapons, and lots of other things. This map (Tricoil) would not even remotely work well in Quake 3, or probably UT either

Sure, different engines have different physics etc. but the map layouts are designed for deathmatch gameplay.

To convert a map designed for one engine to another you would have to scale it or change the physics - if it takes 3 seconds to nav the length of a corridor in the HL map version then you would have to modify the Q3 version so that it takes the same time.

I'm guessing that the HalfLife DMC conversion of Quake 1 maps used this method or similar Q1 player physics, i haven't played DMC for a while so i may be wrong about that.

Granted, there are weapons like the Redeemer which have no HL equivalent and you would have to make allowances for that. There are also engine limits where it would be difficult to convert a very open UT/Q3 level to HL.

DM maps can be broken down into types - arena, linear, circular, theme etc. and IMHO a style/layout that works well in one engine will work with others.

/edit - just tried Tricoil in DMC and player movement is about 20-25% slower than HLDM with lower eye level, looks as tho DMC physics have been modified.

"Scaling" a map up will technically work, but the level will not play very well. The "types" of maps you list are all quite broad, and would apply to maps outside of Deathmatch. It's like saying every book of the same genre is alike, because they share the same subject matter.

/shrugs, i only referred to deathmatch and not other gameplay types.

Quake 1 DM maps seem to play ok in HalfLife DMC and AFAIK the DMC map layouts are the same as the originals. OTOH perhaps iD Software and Valve got it wrong after all :wink:

That's because DMC's gameplay experience is supposed to replicate Quake's as closely as possible. HL and UT/Quake have very, very different gameplay styles. UT deathmatch is not HL deathmatch. The pacing is completely different, UT (especially UT2003) has much greater variety in movements (double jumping, dodging, etc.), the weapons are different...this all has an effect on how a level plays in one game vs. another.

I think I've succeeded in completely derailing your thread, KFS :sad:

Ummm, yeah, sorry about that KFS, will try not to post so much off-topic bull$hit.

SuperCrazy said:
I think I've succeeded in completely derailing your thread, KFS :sad:

Mm, still nice to see you still poke your head in here after all this time :razz:

Yeah UT2003 rules!

:biggrin:

Oh, no, don't be worried about derailing anything :smile: 'tis a healthy debate. Besides, I've been sick the last couple days and my connection has been on the fritz on top of that. :razz: Maybe if I'm lucky I'll have a chance to go through all your feedback more in-depth and get back to the map this weekend.

Leperous said:

SuperCrazy said:
I think I've succeeded in completely derailing your thread, KFS :sad:

Mm, still nice to see you still poke your head in here after all this time :razz:

I always lurk here, but rarely do I deem a thread worthy enough to post in. Or something. Hmm.