Parenting Practices.

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This topic was begun while Snarkpit was down, but the topic is still worthy debating material.

Please feel free to continue it here.

The only thing I can really offer about parenting is that parents shouldn't freak out if their kids are drinking underage unless A) they get caught or B) someone gets pregnant... kids these days find the most bulls**t reasons to "rebel," meaning that if they get bitched at for drinking, they'll definitely do it again.

I read the first 4 posts, but I just want to get my opinion out there:

I was spanked as a child, I kinda sit on the line where spanking was a
disiplin action, and then moved to child abuse. I think it taught me to
mind my elders and learned whos boss. And taught me I cant have
everything i wanted. I believe that parents these days have their
children run ranpid! This could be the cause of many reasons:

1) The child has a problem (ADD) and the parent seems like they arent
trying to control the child, but in reality it could be that theyve
learned to just let them tire them-selves out and take it from there
(from past experiences)

2) The child was an acident...I know a few "young" married couples, and
they had a child...by acident, and since it was unplaned the parents
dont give a hoot because they want/are still in their honeymoon
"lovy-dovy" stage

3) The child, like the parent are spoiled. Since the parent was used to
getting everything they wanted when they were young, they let the child
get what they want when they scream. And the parents just dont want to
deal with it.

There are more reasons, but I think what it all boilds down to is the
parents dont give a hoot anymore. Maybe its evolution, maybe children
are developing at such a fast rate they dont need their parents
anymore, and the parents are responding to it by not controling them
:sad: ???? I really dont know, im not a physc major, nor child developemet
expert, but I do know that children are getting out of hand some how.

i also only read the first 3-4 posts.. here are my stances, but i'm not a parent (god forbid)

a. spank the kids, damnit! ignoring them or putting them down mentally does much more permanant damage than a few welts. we all need to learn who the authority is in our life, and this is a good way. i was spanked, but my father wasn't around to do the same for my younger brother. my little bro is a spoiled lil dick.

b. make sure your kid has a good moral baseline. if he has nothing to gauge his actions with, he'll look to other sources.. ie media, friends, primal instincts. not saying its right to force all of your beliefs on him/her, but make sure they know right from wrong.

c. keep in mind there's a middleground between spoiled and neglected. kids have different definitions of wants and needs.. sometimes kids actually do need $10 to go to the movies with friends.

d. dont restrict them from violent media completely. accompany them, and differenciate what's right and wrong. if you keep this stuff away from them completely, they wont know how to handle it when its brought up and you're not around.

e. educate your kids on sex. avoiding that issue will cause the same outcome as the other subjects.. they'll rely on the wrong sources to make their judgment. and by educate, i dont mean tell them its evil and dont do it. i mean STDs, birth control, the whole deal. (i was talkin about this in another thread.)

umm that's all that comes to mind.

As a former kid, I was never really punished. My parents didn't
ground me (other than a few times) and I was only spanked once or twice.

I dont know how I turned out "so well"

though I maybe didn't turn out that well...

I drink under age,

I do 'light' drugs like weed, mushrooms, and I smoke (though I quit with out any trouble a few weeks ago),

I have shop lifted and once me and some friends scamed Best Buy out of $2000 worth of computer stuff (grand larseny [sp?]).

But I also have a huge respect for all people, I help charity, I did well in school, I am motivated to do well in life.

My parents have no idea about the bad things I've done, and I doupt
they ever will. But I know that they have made me a good person,
even though I do taboo things, I know that I am a good person becuase
of my parents.

I think the main thing is that as parents you have to let the kid make
their own mistakes and let them know what they did wrong. Tell
them about your mistakes. DONT try and pervent mistakes, becuase
there are two outcomes if you shelter your kid. They will sneak
out and do all the things you told them not to, and they will do them
with such haste that they wont do it in a safe way. OR they will
be a shut in, have few friends and not function well socialy, then once
they are out on their own... they will be faced with all the 'evil' of
the world and becuase you didn't let them ease into those 'evils' as a
kid they will f**k up big time. Like drink themselves to death at
a college party.

My mum's friend was a primary school teacher at the school I used to go to until recently (well, 'headmistress' of it in fact) in a local prep (private) school. She quit quite recently because she basically said that children were too badly behaved, and you couldn't do anything about it because the parents would come in and complain and kick up a fuss about how you were bullying their children. She told me that the reason for this was because they were overcompensating for something- often, that they'd be working most of the week, so would want to be extra nice to their kids when they get back (and especially wouldn't want them crying and moaning lots after a stressful week!).

Another PE teacher I remember was always quite strict and would get people to run around the games fields without flinching, and would basically pick on the really annoying bastard, misbehaved kids; apparently some of the parents recently ganged up on him and forced him out of his job because of this.

I totally believe that spanking, if it is not applied by an abusive parent, will always make a child turn out better. In fact, from personal experience it can make you fearful of getting in trouble from anyone (Pavlov-style) whilst you're young, so that you try your best to be good and do what you're told.

There will always be exceptions. Some children are just born to be assholes, but generally speaking its bad parenting that makes bad children. If it isn't the parent abusing them, its the parent neglecting them. If it isn't the parent doting on them, its the parent depriving them. I will be the first to admit that proper parenting is not an exact science, nor is it easy. I think that I am generally a good parent, but i have two son's, both treated almost exactly the same, yet one is mostly responsible, and the other.... lets just say that being irresponsible is not a strong enough term to describe him.

Bottomline, in all but a very few cases, if a child turns out badly, it was through events the parent neglected to properly.

In fact, from personal experience it can make you fearful of
getting in trouble from anyone (Pavlov-style) whilst you're young, so
that you try your best to be good and do what you're told.

Ahh yes, because everyone should unquestioningly obey authority and never question their leaders...

mazemaster said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>In fact, from personal experience it can make you fearful of getting in trouble from anyone (Pavlov-style) whilst you're young, so that you try your best to be good and do what you're told.

Ahh yes, because everyone should unquestioningly obey authority and never question their leaders...
</div></div>

I am not exactly sure what "Pavlov-style" is, but I do not think lep meant "blind obedience"

No, its even worse. Blind obedience is where a person has made a
consious decision to follow orders whether or not they personally agree
with those orders. On the other hand, Pavlov conditioning is a
subconsious remapping of behavior - ie: mild brainwashing.

A child who undergoes Pavlovian conditioning to obey authority will do
so not because they have weighed the options, reflected on past
situations, and decided not to disobey - they will just naturally obey
without giving it a second thought like a mindless automaton.

I added the "whilst you're young" part after to point out that one can still quite easily challenge authority when older, when you are able to question people's motives correctly and have developed your own moral compass...

First off, there is no such thing as a generally good standard of parenting. Anything major a parent does for their infant child is going to have either radically positive or radically negative effects in the long run, and to my mind it's virtually impossible to predict the consequences of what you do for a kid.

For example, my parents, both devoutly religious and persistently motivated to infuse their children with religious values, have raised a brood of cynical agnostics. They've both lived fairly model lives, are almost stoic in their morality, and have always done their absolute best to ensure our well being, and yet two of us - myself and my older brother - have had some terrible things happen to us in our lives and are now extremely skeptical of our futures.

I don't think a child should be taught from the start to question anything. In fact, I don't think you can be taught to question. You have to learn that for yourself.

Cassius said:
I don't think a child should be taught from the start to question anything. In fact, I don't think you can be taught to question. You have to learn that for yourself.

Children don't have to be taught to question, it's their very nature to do so. Ever sit down with a 6 year old, and talk about anything? Hell, all they do is throw out 'why, why, why...but why?'. I do think it is good to let children feel ok about questioning this world. My parents didn't really impose any rigid structure of belief on me as a child, only supported my imagination, sense of self, individuality, and spirituality (without being relegious). I can't say I turned out any better than anyone else, but I (and my two sisters) somehow wound up with a fairly strong moral/spiritual compass, without the overtones of oppressive relegion, or the extremes of granola-greenpeace.

The only thing I can really offer about parenting is that
parents shouldn't freak out if their kids are drinking underage unless
A) they get caught or B) someone gets pregnant... kids these days find
the most bulls**t reasons to "rebel," meaning that if they get bitched
at for drinking, they'll definitely do it again.

tbh m8, underage drinking was never a problem for those of us that are
sensible but I had to travel through a slightly worse place to get home
once and it was ful of underage drinkers suffice to say I was beaten up
in the street. Drink is one of britains greatest problems.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Finger</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Children don't have to be taught to question, it's their very nature to do so. Ever sit down with a 6 year old, and talk about anything? Hell, all they do is throw out 'why, why, why...but why?'. I do think it is good to let children feel ok about questioning this world. My parents didn't really impose any rigid structure of belief on me as a child, only supported my imagination, sense of self, individuality, and spirituality (without being relegious). I can't say I turned out any better than anyone else, but I (and my two sisters) somehow wound up with a fairly strong moral/spiritual compass, without the overtones of oppressive relegion, or the extremes of granola-greenpeace. </DIV></DIV>

Good points, all. Perhaps I mean "question" in the skeptical sense.

For the most part, each of you are replying in the "first person" sense. This is good in a way, it shows you are not in denial about yourself. You may have a false image of yourself, I am not sure anyone actually sees themselves in a proper light but it is good to know that you are thinking about it.

My real goal, and its important to know this is, why is there there so many parents whom are getting it wrong? Of course, there will always be those whom are gonna say "what gives you the right to say its wrong?" or "what makes you believe you are in a position to judge?"

read my example in the PFL forums. yeah there are many examples of good parenting and bad parenting, but my primary example of bad parenting is toddlers misbehaving in public. I am not really concerned with teens (as this thread is turning out to WANT to discuss).. Parents these days, or better MANY parents these days show no inclination at all to make their very young behave in public. You cannot go into any restaurants these days without a child wailing about something. You cannot go into a walk-in theater without some small child bawling for a bottle. You cannot go into a store without some small child screaming for a toy.

Now, be objective here people. Be observant as well... look around you and note just how many children you see that "could have" been at least scolded for their actions in public.

I think you should also look at schooling (private or public school in particular). I remember back in the day I was scared s**tless of the top years, even just my Leps year (2 years above). This was always the tradition- fear in the ranks etc. By the time we were the top year all that had gone away. All the younger years were a load of s**ts and never did what they were told, and we couldn't force em either 'cus they would just tell people...

I blame the anti bullying campaign. Bullying builds character- people who are bullied end out rich because of they wierd messed up minds...

Human kids aren't designed to "behave well" in public. Strange and
arbitrary rules are being forced upon them for reasons they can't
understand, and to add to that they are in a scary situation full of
unfamiliar people. As a metric for "good parenting", I think there are
far better measures than how well children behave in public.

For example, if you did a study of how "well-behaved" young kids were
vs. how well they did in life - how many went to prison, how many
became successful businessmen, how many became doctors, how happy they
rated themselves, etc - I think you would find no correlation.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a negative correlation for
the most influential people - the Picassos, the Einsteins, the Lockes,
the Mozarts, (the Stalins?), etc.

Myrk- said:
I blame the anti bullying campaign. Bullying builds character- people who are bullied end out rich because of they wierd messed up minds...

Although true in some cases, it can also lead to defects in adults.

Where I think things go astray is, todays children are being taught that they are the center of the universe. I see children all the time that their parents are into this "self image" and "self expression" thing. Its creating brats. Real life isn't gonna treat your "little darling" like that.

where the bullying fails today is, these children reach their teen years and find out that mommy and daddy have lied to them. their brains cannot cope with reality and they crack. some crack so badly that they KILL the ones picking on them. some actually kill with little or no remorse, they actually BELIEVE they are justified. after all they are the center of the universe, aren't they?

I listen to teens moan today about their own parents and cannot help but think "if only my problems were so trivial when i was their age" because parents do not teach their children whats gonna be like OUTSIDE the home, teens are getting more and more anti-social.

I would never wish my childhood on another human being, but if kids today would look beyond their petty complaints and see the true horrors life can give.. well, it would really scare you.

KoRnFlakes said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>&#149; quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>The only thing I can really offer about parenting is that parents shouldn't freak out if their kids are drinking underage unless A) they get caught or B) someone gets pregnant... kids these days find the most bulls**t reasons to "rebel," meaning that if they get bitched at for drinking, they'll definitely do it again.

tbh m8, underage drinking was never a problem for those of us that are sensible but I had to travel through a slightly worse place to get home once and it was ful of underage drinkers suffice to say I was beaten up in the street. Drink is one of britains greatest problems.
</div></div>

It sounds to me like loutish behavior in general is one of Britain's greatest problems unless those kids are saints while sober. I've never met a violent/hostile drinker (underage or not) myself, though I know America's host to its fair share of the beasts.

mazemaster said:
Human kids aren't designed to "behave well" in public. Strange and arbitrary rules are being forced upon them for reasons they can't understand, and to add to that they are in a scary situation full of unfamiliar people. As a metric for "good parenting", I think there are far better measures than how well children behave in public.

I am not in any real position to say you are truly wrong, but it is my firm conviction that what you just said is a crock.

Children by nature are bashful and shy, now understand that I am referring to the "less than 3" club here. These are the informative years, these are also the impressionable ones as well. Habits created in this time may last a life time. True, habits created later also tend to last a life time but I am only interested in this age for the moment.

I do not for a moment believe that whipping a child will make them predisposed to be a doctor, not will whipping them make them turn out to be a city sanitation employee either. What I do know for a fact is, no one wants to have to deal with any nasty parental habits when a child is acting out in a public place. Whats even worse, these same parents if you were to inform them that their child needs to be attended to are most likely to create an even bigger scene than the child already has. The mindset just refuses to accept that they are the problem, its the room full of peoples fault.

Children are not born with annoying habits, they acquire them. If the child is misbehaving in public, it has been taught to do so.

Orpheus said:
Children are not born with annoying habits, they acquire them. If the child is misbehaving in public, it has been taught to do so.

More often than not, they pick up things like this through their friends though...

Leperous said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Children are not born with annoying habits, they acquire them. If the child is misbehaving in public, it has been taught to do so.

More often than not, they pick up things like this through their friends though...</div></div>

sighs

true to a point, more and more children are in "day cares" and subject to annoying habits. but the roots of these habits still stems from the same sources.

the solution still is the parents desire to make the child behave. i am not saying to beat the child into submission either. my children knew proper public habits without the need to beat them.
but yes, children do acquire bad habits from other children as well. :sad:

I was in a restaurant
recently having a nice meal with some relatives when a family with a
young child sat down at a nearby table. Now it is to be expected that
families will bring youngsters into such places so obviously we had no
issues with this, but when the child began wandering around the other
tables and pestering the clientele we did begin to get a bit annoyed.
The parents were just sitting chatting away with their group,
apparently happy to be "rid" of their child for a while. I found this
to be quite shocking, as they were seriously just ignoring the fact
that their kid was walking up to total strangers, picking up cutlery,
butting in on conversations, and even trying to grab food off other's
plates.

Perhaps there is something to be said for ignoring your children when
they try and seek attention, but it sure as hell wasn't working on this
child, and it resulted in a restaurant full of pissed off people. I
know if I had behaved in such a way when I was child then I would have
been smacked, and I firmly believe its the best way to deal with
misbehaving children.

Not directly related to parenting per se, but seeing ReNo's post above
and Orph's post at PFL, it seems like kids are kept far away from
"adult" society in your areas, almost as if you're intolerant of them.

I dunno how to describe this... Over here, what you guys have described
is very common (at least with normal folks). It's expected that you
take your kids with you wherever you go, and it's perfectly fine if
they start making a nuisance. You can walk over to the kid and correct
him/her, or hand him/her over to the parents if it gets really
annoying. It's considered perfectly normal, and no one is going to mind
a bit. Wailing, kicking, screaming whatever, no one will feel offended.

And it seems that this doesn't spoil the kids in anyway. Most of us
grow up to be quite respectful of others and basically decent people.
Maybe you should just put up with it and correct the kids without
worrying about them too much. Kids get along quite well on their own,
they hate too much interference from anyone, especially their parents.
All they need is a bit of advice at the right time. A lot less fuss
about "right" parenting would help too.

PS: No flaming intended at all...

fraggard said:
PS: No flaming intended at all...

I can't remember the last time we had a decent flame fest. Shame you're not volunteering Fragman :biggrin:

On a serious note, no one would even dream of correcting a total strangers child. I cannot even imagine how that would go over here in the States. You people in India must have an exceptionally high tolerance of intrusive events. It would be a much worse breach of etiquette to correct someone else's child.

But I am getting the impression that you are thinking that I am referring to "mild" events. This is hardly what I mean. In the case I described in the PFL post, the child was running around. He was going behind the counter at a buffet breakfast, the area meant strictly for employees. He was quite loud and throwing a fit over some toast or jelly. I am considered very tolerant by many when it comes to children, but this was blatantly a lack of parental guidance. The entire room was.. annoyed to say the least. All the while, the mom was... not even aware. yeah she talked to him, she knew he was there, but didn't cringe or nothing when the ear piercing shrieks began.

It takes a real dedicated person to expose total strangers to their faults of this nature. :/

What's more disgusting than a child misbehaving in public is an adult overreacting about it. Seeing a parent hit or emotionally reprimand his/her child is one of the most repulsive things I have ever seen.

Cassius said:
What's more disgusting than a child misbehaving in public is an adult overreacting about it. Seeing a parent hit or emotionally reprimand his/her child is one of the most repulsive things I have ever seen.

to a point i agree, hence my words at PFL:

"You must make a child mind at home, before they will mind in public" :rolleyes:

Frag, most of the time in the UK we are quite intolerant of children,
and I'd wager we are becoming more so. If they are kids you know or
your own kids / family's kids, then people are generally fine with them
being a bit noisy or intrusive. On the other hand, children of
strangers are, from my experience, increasingly seen as a nuisance.
When I've been on holiday in Spain, Italy, or the South of France, kids
are normally very much accepted and put up with. Back here though,
people seem to like peace and quiet in a restaurant, not screaming
children or kids running around and getting in the way of the staff and
pestering customers.

I myself don't like young kids, probably because I don't have younger
siblings and only recently have my aunts and uncles had children -
therefore until now I've never really had young children to "put up
with". I'd imagine that having younger siblings, or kids of your own of
course, makes you much more tolerant.

ReNo said:
I'd imagine that having younger siblings, or kids of your own of course, makes you much more tolerant.

I can tell you that grand children most definitely brings it all home. I am immensely more tolerant than I was with my own children. My grandson destroyed my $350.00 prescription glasses once. He came away without a clue as to his error. It was my fault in a way, but I still feel he should have been better taught not to touch things. :/

i've none of my own that i'm admiting to, but i've had a few on loan, and imho, young kids are the most amazing little critters you can ever meet. once they've passed the rubber neck stage and can be safely thrown around, they're just so much fun.

When I was younger I got spanked a lot. I'm glad too. I would hate to end up growing up as a little asshole. Sometimes I just want to slap parents in the face for the s**t they let their kids get away with in public. I also don't get why parents bring their babies and toddlers into rated R movies. I went to go see Dawn of the Dead a year ago in the theatres and there were several parents in the front row who had little kids climbing over the seats and babies who cried the during the whole movie. I almost asked for my money back because it was so annoying I could hardly watch the movie.

I recently saw this on TV, and thought it appropriate for this thread.

The scene is taken from the T.V. show "Judging Amy"

In the scene Maxine Grey is talking to her spoiled rich nephew.

him: I need help Maxine, my life has been Hell.
her: No, you may have been in purgatory, but not Hell. Hell is an infant with burns on their genitalia because their mother is putting cigarettes on them.
him: its not my fault that I do not know what Hell looks like.

I am so fed up with spoiled rich kids and their imagined woes. :sad:

I try to work up some compassion when I hear one has killed themselves, but can't. I think, "whiny kids, make whiny adults, good riddance" - cold that may be, but its me, get over it.

I just cannot fathom why people shelter their children to a point that life's normal issues become major events. Events massive enough to kill themselves over.

I would not wish my childhood on anyone, but it did create a condition to where I didn't whine at everything imaginable.