Us vs. Them

THE WORLD

Transatlantic Divide Deep, Not So Wide, Poll Finds

Key differences persist between Americans and Europeans, but accord prevails on some issues.

By Sebastian Rotella

Times Staff Writer

September 7, 2005

PARIS ? Europeans and Americans have often starkly different views of
each other and the world, but agree on some major issues such as
promoting democracy and avoiding war with Iran, according to a survey
being released today.

As Western leaders try to mend rifts exacerbated since 2003 by the Iraq
war, the fourth annual study of European and U.S. public opinion by the
German Marshall Fund depicts a complex, wary transatlantic
relationship. But the report, an advanced copy of which was given to
The Times, also contradicts stereotypes and common wisdom.

Although a majority of Europeans remain hostile to American global
dominance and President Bush in particular, they are enthusiastic about
the centerpiece of Bush's foreign policy: promoting democracy around
the world.

Despite three major terrorist attacks in Europe
during the last two years and increased debate about the difficulties
of integrating a large Muslim population, Europeans fear terrorism,
Islamic extremism and immigration less than Americans do, according to
the survey.

And Americans agree with Europeans that the
European Union, an economic giant but a military dwarf, should evolve
into a global superpower even if that means Europe asserts increasing
independence.

The findings reflect the fact that the U.S. and
Europe work well together in many places other than Iraq, said John K.
Glenn of the German Marshall Fund, a U.S.-European think tank that
studies and promotes transatlantic relations.

"The rift over
Iraq has taken longer to heal than expected, but things haven't gotten
worse," said Glenn, the fund's director of foreign policy, who is based
in Washington. "There are very real differences in the way that
Americans and Europeans view the world?. You have to separate out the
trauma of Iraq, which has been more enduring, more searing if you will,
for Europeans than Americans might have expected. The data shows enough
common ground that I don't think we are at the beginning of a
civilizational split."

The report compiles polling data from
the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands,
Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Spain and Turkey, which straddles the Asian
and European continents and aspires to join the EU. Pollsters
questioned about 1,000 men and women in each country and identified a
margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

The
questions were designed to take the "temperature" of the transatlantic
relationship. If Europe and the U.S. were a married couple, the
findings suggest that divorce is not imminent, but aggressive
counseling would be a good idea.

Europeans have "moderately
warm" feelings toward Americans overall, the survey found. Britons and
Italians are the most positive, Spaniards and Turks the most
anti-American.

In contrast, the survey found, "Americans give
their European allies more positive evaluations." The surge of
anti-French feeling after Paris' leadership in opposing the Iraq
invasion has apparently abated. American warmth toward France increased
for the second year in a row, going from 45 to 53 on a scale of 1 to
100. Because European politics tend to be further to
the left than those in the U.S., ideological antipathy to the Bush
administration shapes European attitudes.

But Europeans agree
with the president's drive for democracy in the Middle East and
elsewhere, the centerpiece of his foreign policy in his second term,
the survey found.

About 74% of European respondents, compared
with 51% of Americans, want their governments to help establish
democracy in other countries. The breakdown in responses among
Americans was 76% among Republican voters and 43% of Democrats,
probably because the latter associate the "democracy promotion" phrase
with Bush, Glenn said.

That means European views on the
matter resemble those of the GOP, contradicting at least on this issue
the image of Democrats as being ideologically closer to Europe.

Both Americans and Europeans favor "soft" tactics such as election
monitoring over use of force to spread democracy, the poll found.

"There are unexpected areas where Europeans and Americans can work
together if we separate military intervention as an exceptional case
from overall policies," Glenn said.

In fact, the Bush
administration teams with France and other European allies in hot spots
such as Ukraine, where they collaborated in helping reformists take
power; Lebanon, where they joined to pressure Syrian forces to leave;
and Afghanistan, where European troops play a front-line role.

The public on both continents backs the EU diplomatic approach to the
dispute with Iran over Tehran's nuclear ambitions. Only 5% of Europeans
and 15% of Americans support a military solution. And slim majorities
want human rights reforms in China as a condition for increased trade
with Beijing.

Nonetheless, the transatlantic divide widens when
it comes to global threats. Americans consistently see the world as a
more dangerous place.

"Americans feel significantly more likely to be personally
affected by terrorism (71% vs. 53% of Europeans), by the spread of
nuclear weapons (67% vs. 55%) and by Islamic fundamentalism (50% vs.
40%)," the report says. At the same time, Europeans worry more than
Americans (73% to 64%) about global warming, the survey found.

A key factor for the divergence is the resounding effect on the American psyche of the Sept. 11 attacks, Glenn said.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

americans are fat, europeans are sexy :o

americans are always selfish , europeans sometimes are not selfish

al in all ,i don't like americans ( the ones you see on tv ... i don't know alot of em eh :smile: so no offence to american forums users, just to their fat president and staff :o )

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

jesus what a narrow mind you have.....before i go on a rant, i have one question.....wtf qualifies you to make a blanket statement like that biopulse?? have you ever been here? do you know the heartbeat of this country?...i was raised in europe man, and im here to tell ya, the differences are all human bourne horses**t.....ill await an answer sir. :wink:

Doc Brasso

BioPulse said:
americans are fat, europeans are sexy :o

americans are always selfish , europeans sometimes are not selfish

al in all ,i don't like americans ( the ones you see on tv ... i don't know alot of em eh :smile: so no offence to american forums users, just to their fat president and staff :o )

i agree that there are many americans that i dislike but sterotyping all americans as 'fat' and 'selfish' is untrue. sure i dont agree with Bush or alot of americans' views but i still do not place the american culture as whole under my 'Hate' list. while i was in america i actually got quite a pleasant surprise: everyone there (that i met) are so nice. i am usually intimidated about being thrown into a position where i know no one but they all know each other. but i found that they were all very welcoming and i became quite good friends with alot of people both my age and younger/older. i was never intimidated at all. they never once put down Scotland at all, they were actually very interested to hear about the culture and what its like over here. so i have a pretty positive attitude about americans. this is not saying that they are 'better' then europeans but not also saying they are 'worse' i just dont see how people can immesiately put all americans into a position as 'fat' or 'arrogant' when, typically (because there are quite a few who follow this role, but hey you get them in every culture and country) they are not. so think about it, all that is really different is that they talk differently and have some different views.
/end rant

---

Bullet Control: $5000 for a bullet.
"I would blow your f**king head off! ...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving some money... then you a dead man!"

People have a tendancy to bash down on things they dont know. But at the end of the day they have no idea what there talking about, mostly hear-say and mainstream media(movies, documentary's, etc.).

---

RUST Gamedesign
pepper design

The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee.

BioPulse said:
americans are fat, europeans are sexy :o

americans are always selfish , europeans sometimes are not selfish

al in all ,i don't like americans ( the ones you see on tv ... i don't know alot of em eh :smile: so no offence to american forums users, just to their fat president and staff :o )

Wow, Biopulse, that's ridiculously obtuse.

Why do you think all americans are fat? That is like me saying that all Nederlanders are Cannabis users, because it is a steroetype of your country. It's just wrong.

The only reason ppl think americans are selfish is because we are rich (as a country) and the rich are commonly viewed as selfish. The USA alone donated $989,189,234.32 to the victims of the southeast asian tsunami victims. source
When we have our own flooding here in the USA, where is europe with donations? Now, I am not blaming anyone for anything, but you see how it is easy for one side to have misconceptions of the other.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Dr Brasso said:
jesus what a narrow mind you have.....before i go on a rant, i have one question.....wtf qualifies you to make a blanket statement like that biopulse?? have you ever been here? do you know the heartbeat of this country?...i was raised in europe man, and im here to tell ya, the differences are all human bourne horses**t.....ill await an answer sir. :wink:

Doc Brasso

well said

I suspect BioPulse said what he said just to trigger us Americans
off. I do that sometimes with my wife. I'll say something
that's so offensive to get her railed up, because I like her all hot
and bothered.

I think he likes the same reaction from the forum members.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

George Bush and anyone who supports him should be shot.

BP, some of that was judgemental and some of it was straight up untrue:

no offence to american forums users, just to their fat president and staff :o )

Our president isn't fat

BP, some of that was judgemental and some of it was straight up untrue:

Our president isn't fat

*<:-)

Just selfish :smile:

(I keeeed, I keeed!)

Saying that Americans in general are fat and selfess is not valid. The US is quite large ad diverse, you have to view it as regional steriotypes. For one, most movies are based in California, New York, or in fictionally themed other states.

Its not right to steriotype the rest of the US based upon New Yorker or Californian appearance.

For one, being a born Texan, I dislike New Yorkers (or more commanly known as Yankee's for that northern region); but only a minor dislike for Californians. Baically, its becaue of how most of those people view Texas as a wasteland of rednecks; truthfully it's one of the most tech savy places in the US. Plus, when I last checked, 3D Realms is in Dallas.

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You know, I've actually got nothing to say

if you would have read the entire post you would have seen that i don't know alot of americans and didn't mean to offend people who don't fit in the catogory that i noted... you hazlenuts!

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

If the current rise in obesity rates continues at the pace it is now, by 2007 all americans will be overweight.

:biggrin:

...I'm not bulls**ttin ya, it's ture....

I'm not, persay, retailiating, but I was just stating a point that
through the media, our views and opinios of other peoples and their
cultures become obscure and cause us to lose site of the bigger and
true picture; thus, our mind replace what is important wih what is
meanigless and incorect.

---

You know, I've actually got nothing to say

as i said, i've never met any americans who are nice, i'm sure htye are there, i mean, there's nice people in every culture / country etc. , just that so far i don't like americans ,from what i've seen and know.

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

So ... based on that stand point would you say you don't like a good chunk of people on this forum? Myself included, since I'm an American. :rolleyes:

I really don't understand why homeland discrimination isn't looked at the same way as racial discrimination ... it's still a choice that you don't get to initially make.

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

as i said, i've never met any americans who are nice, i'm sure
htye are there, i mean, there's nice people in every culture / country
etc. , just that so far i don't like americans ,from what i've seen and
know.

Your entitled to your opinion, but it just isn't based off of too much fact.

Yes generally americans are fat (its the leading health issue here,
were too fat), but there are A LOT of people who take care of themseves.

Yes Americans are generaly stupid because they believe everything they
hear in the Censored News, and are consumed by pop culture, but there
ARE people who actually think for themselves.

Yes Amercans base a lot of their status through wealth and possesions,
just watch MTV, but those aren't what REAL Americans are like.

BUT there are stupid people everywhere, so making statments like:

americans are fat, europeans are sexy :o

americans are always selfish , europeans sometimes are not selfish

al in all ,i don't like americans ( the ones you see on tv ... i don't know alot of em eh :smile: so no offence to american forums users, just to their fat president and staff :o )

Is pure ignorance (I don't mean to insult you). Myabe you shouldnt use
these forums if you dont like amercans, cause a good majority of the
pit is comosed of "fat/selfish Americans" =P

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Posting And You

My wife and I are both Americans. She is a computer scientist; I
am a doctor. She runs more than forty miles a week (64 km); I
bench press almost twice my body weight.

I have to say that we're definitely not unique.

But it's true that there is an epidemic of obesity in the U.S., and I
am doing my best trying to stop the tide of junk food every single day.

And lastly, we are as anti-Bush as anyone can be. It seemed like
the entire state of California voted for Kerry, but apparently there
are enough Bush supporters in other states to carry him to a second
term.

Luckily, it'll all end in a few years.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

BP, some of that was judgemental and some of it was straight up untrue:

no offence to american forums users, just to their fat president and staff :o )

Our president isn't fat

hes flabby in the head

i hate that piece of sh*t

FatStrings said:
I am only 16 years old and I have no idea about anything in politics, I just hear what my mommy says and repeat it.

dude, remember, it always comes down to a choice between a Giant Douche or a Turd Sandwich.

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Crono said:
So ... based on that stand point would you say you don't like a good chunk of people on this forum? Myself included, since I'm an American. :rolleyes:

I really don't understand why homeland discrimination isn't looked at the same way as racial discrimination ... it's still a choice that you don't get to initially make.

i odn't know you do i.. hazlenut ^^, try turning the tv on in holland here, u'll see why i have such a 'blurred' vision, all you see is morons

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

turn the damn tv off, pick up a book, or even better.....get on the rails and see the world.....i traveled europe for four years interrail pass when i was in high school.....never been a more exciting time in my life.....well, maybe gettin' shot at, but that doesnt count for this discussion....

go figure, some of my best friends are american... :heee:

Doc Brasso... :dodgy:

i hardly watch tv, only the news ( yeh, how bad is the news then! ) i read alot of book,s but english ones ( liek british authors... ) and i am a litlebit to young to travel still, maybe in a few years.

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Hell, is an half-filled auditorium

<DIV class=quotetitle>? posted by BioPulse</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetitle>and i am a litlebit to young to travel still, maybe in a few years.</DIV>

seems to me, that tells it all..... :wink: nuff said

Doc B.... :dodgy: peace......

I think this thread kind of illustrates the main difference between Americans and Europeans.

Very few European countries are as loud about their nationality for one
thing (even the flag wavers of Northern Ireland pale in comparison).

America tends to flood every aspect of its culture with garish
patriotic imagery and sentiment. Europeans tend to be less obsessed
with national identity, and stamping a flag on everything. How many
American movies have you seen that don't have some kind of speil about
how great it is to be American behind the stars and stripes in slow
motion?

I'd say that in order of obsessively jingoistic citizens it would go:

1. China

2. USA

3. England

4. Ireland

Every other country just seems comfortable enough to get on with it
without screaming about it, I mean I haven't heard many people chanting
"CAN-A-DA, CAN-A-DA!" the way the yanks do.

A nation gains strength by its citizens having pride in his/her country. Did you notice that the list includes some of the most powerful countries in the world?

...and you left out Japan. Japanese are typically very proud to be Japanese, even more than Americans.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

satchmo said:
A nation gains strength by its citizens having pride in his/her country.

ok now this really intrigues me. when you americans watch movies like "pearl harbour" and "the last castle", do these movies really give you a good feeling, making you all warm inside, about how awesome and heroic it is to be american?

Cause when we watch those it has the opposite effect, it really can ruin a movie when they go overboard with that.

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Did you notice that the list includes some of the most powerful countries in the world?

Yes. Powerful and better are completely different things, however.
Getting the poor to chant "We're number one!" isn't a kick in the ass
away from the penniless soviet 'comrades' working their asses off for
Mother Russia with a stupid grin...

I'd feel a bit more comfortable around Americans if they'd realise that
they're swamped in propaganda, but any attempt to say so is,
obviously taken as a jealous (and obviously wrong) attack on the
land of milk and honey...

Mephs said:
I think this thread kind of illustrates the main difference between Americans and Europeans.

Very few European countries are as loud about their nationality for one thing (even the flag wavers of Northern Ireland pale in comparison).

America tends to flood every aspect of its culture with garish patriotic imagery and sentiment. Europeans tend to be less obsessed with national identity, and stamping a flag on everything. How many American movies have you seen that don't have some kind of speil about how great it is to be American behind the stars and stripes in slow motion?

I'd say that in order of obsessively jingoistic citizens it would go:

1. China
2. USA
3. England
4. Ireland

Every other country just seems comfortable enough to get on with it without screaming about it, I mean I haven't heard many people chanting "CAN-A-DA, CAN-A-DA!" the way the yanks do.

What about Germany? They got so nationalistic that thier old National Anthem is banned and you are not allowed to sing it!

It's not that we don't KNOW we're swamped in propaganda. It's that we enjoy war movies, because they kick ass. People killing other people on the TV is cool, it doesnt matter if it's a viet cong soldier killing an american or an IRA-extremist trying to assassinate someone. We like explosions and bullets and we like one side to win indefinitely to fulfill our paradigm of what a conflict scenario should be. Of course, we are not going to let the OTHER side win because that would be depressing.

If you're not proud to live where you live, where would you be proud to live? Pick a place and move there. AND we dont have flags stamped all over everything. Since outsourcing has brought us cintinually s**tty products from overseas, we like to know where something is made so we can tell whether its gonna be s**tty or not before we buy it. Look for the "Made in the USA" for a good product. (sometimes)

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

About Americans being really patriotic and all... that'sfine. But
if I watch anything with Tom Cruise in it, it makes me gag.

Anyways, it kind of reminds me of part of a George Carlin routine ( I love that guy :biggrin: )

Another thing that makes me a bad American, I do'nt get all
choked up over flags and little yellow ribbons. (applause) I consider
them symbols, and I prefer to leave the symbols to the symbol minded
(applause)

:biggrin: :biggrin: Methinks that's hilarious :smile:

I like to consider myself "patriotic" if you will, but I don't go
overboard. I'm proud to be a Canadian, I really can't think of
another place I'd rather live, but I don't want a flag outside my door
or anything like that...

French Toast said:
About Americans being really patriotic and all... that'sfine. But if I watch anything with Tom Cruise in it, it makes me gag.

Anyways, it kind of reminds me of part of a George Carlin routine ( I love that guy :biggrin: )

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Another thing that makes me a bad American, I do'nt get all choked up over flags and little yellow ribbons. (applause) I consider them symbols, and I prefer to leave the symbols to the symbol minded (applause)

:biggrin: :biggrin: Methinks that's hilarious :smile:

I like to consider myself "patriotic" if you will, but I don't go overboard. I'm proud to be a Canadian, I really can't think of another place I'd rather live, but I don't want a flag outside my door or anything like that...
</div></div>

yeah, but... Canada...

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Canada was rated the best place to live on the planet for a few years
in a year. We've dropped down now... but certainly not below the
U.S. :smile:

There's nothing really wrong with Canada, except our army sucks
balls. Think about it... using no stereotypes; We're nicer
people, thinner, with better accents, hockey, ice fishing, and polar
bears. Plus, Canada can't be mentioned without reminding you how
much better our beer is.

Canada's not so bad.

I dunno about the accent, though. eh?

And why aren't all the mexicans jumping over to YOUR place, if it's so great?

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Nickelplate said:
I dunno about the accent, though. eh?

And why aren't all the mexicans jumping over to YOUR place, if it's so great?

maybe all the smart ones did.

---

i eat paint

The mexicans are going to canada, they just keep getting caught on the way over.

I'm Australian. I'd rather live here than anywhere else I can think of. But I wouldnt rally behind an Australian flag, just because I like living here. Being a nice place to live isnt an inherent property of this country. I probably wouldnt risk my life to protect my country unless I couldnt leave.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I'm rather proud of where I live as anyone is. but the truth is,
britain is a hell hole for violence (drunk related and whatnot) as much
as I like the fact I have heritage all over the place
(monuments/pictures of my grandad on arromanches etc etc) I would far
prefer to live in france.

---

My Pit

Canada's cool, I'm 3/4 Canadian so props, haha. A bunch of my American buddies are like "Canada sucks" but they love Mike Myers + Jim Carrey + Eugene Levy... oh the irony.

---

One day you'll know what you're talking about, I can hardly imagine

Maps! - Audio blog!

KoRnFlakes said:
I'm rather proud of where I live as anyone is. but the truth is, britain is a hell hole for violence (drunk related and whatnot) as much as I like the fact I have heritage all over the place (monuments/pictures of my grandad on arromanches etc etc) I would far prefer to live in france.

if it's cause of the violence, cities like Paris, Marseille, ... have that too. It's a problem of big multicultural cities imo

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

Melbourne is nice.

---

"If you talk at all during this lesson, you have detention. Do you understand?"

• My yr11 Economics teacher

I would far
prefer to live in france.

But you'll have to get used to not bathing or taking a shower for
days. On top of that, cat poop needs to be your favorite thing in
the world.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

satchmo said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I would far prefer to live in france.

But you'll have to get used to not bathing or taking a shower for days. On top of that, cat poop needs to be your favorite thing in the world.
</div></div>

uhhhh, Je nez sais quoi... Catpoop!!

England is a violent place, so i've heard, but i never saw anything when i was there. I was not there long, but i've been to where Kornflakes lives, and it was really nice. I saw like THREE policemen the whole time i was there and they were guarding buckingham palace.

We've got Crips and Bloods over here spraying bullets like firemen, and then we've got all these foreign mafias too!

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

We've got Crips and Bloods over here spraying bullets like firemen

That's why playing FPS should be a mandatory training before moving to
the States. Guns are legal here, and many people cherish the
second amendment.

---

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

After the dissapointment of HL2, I started to turn to UT2004. It's really... unrealistic. But i love games like that. where you can actually jump and run, not like MOHAA where u jump like 3 inches and you can only WALK.

Nickelplate said:
After the dissapointment of HL2, I started to turn to UT2004. It's really... unrealistic. But i love games like that. where you can actually jump and run, not like MOHAA where u jump like 3 inches and you can only WALK.

diassapointment?! i personally thought it was one of the best games ever! what was wrong with it? ( a bit oof topic i know!)

as for over board patriotism, i dint really experience that in america, i did expeerience alot of adverts saying things like "ALL your neighbours have Comcast, so you should get it too!" i thought that was pretty funny.

but britain is a pretty violent place, more bodilly violence (like assaults and beatings) and drunk violence then america's gun violence. plus the figures for death rate and obesity and what not in the US just look bad because its the third or fourth most populous country on earth!

---

Bullet Control: $5000 for a bullet.
"I would blow your f**king head off! ...if I could afford it. I'm gonna get another job, start saving some money... then you a dead man!"

Of course all my neighbors have Comcast; they have exclusive rights to set-up cable television in the town...

speaking of national pride, a belgian girl won the U.S. Open tennis championship yesterday, hah! (she received 2.2 million $ )

---

These words are my diaries screaming out loud

I had a really long post but this forum is too half-assed. Raw HTML
with no spaces or anything that would make it readable to humans? I
whole-heartedly suggest acquiring forum software that does not suck
ass. I made numerous edits to my post and it just kept getting more and
more messy and unreadable. Thus, I won't be posting here again.

...what?

I'm upset, as I'm sure is the consensus of the forums.

You're right though, this forum software that Lep made sure does suck.

Lep: Change it to phpBB. That's bulletproof.

Your very first post was a flame,
and it makes users sound very lame,
when the forums they blast,
couldnt give a rat's ass,
if they don't ever post here again!

---

I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com