I'm sure we are all aware of "yobs" or "hoons" as they are called in New Zealand and Australia. From the limited dialogue that I have had with such people who set out to cause trouble even if you say the most logical thing to them the best you are likely to get is a senseless excuse for their behaviour, or at worst, beaten up in one way or another.

Such behaviour is often refered to as "anti-social behaviour" and is common among teenagers of apparently poor backgrounds. The teenagers in question have no respect for authority whatsoever and are mostly in their own little "worlds" so to put it with their friends who seem to have a similar problem.

However, Tony Blair seems to think that this problem can be solved by giving parents "help" with bringing up their children. I however, am not convinced. In some cases reported these people seem to be so past it that they never seemed to have "it" in the first place. Could it be possible that a minority of children are simply born like this?

What do you guys think? Comments and questions welcome :smile:

From working in a shop where I meet these type of people day in day out I do put down the blame to the parents for most part. I constantly hear mums calling their children insulting names ( the other day a woman called her son a little poof and then told him to "get the **** up of the floor" when he had a tantrum).No wonder they have no respet when their parents won't give them any.

Oh right I can see your point when the child is fend negitivity from an early age once they reach teenage hood they tend to become silly. But also these yobs tend to be very ignorant as far as I know and I believe the root cause of this is well...the parents! Oh yes so we arrive at the same conclusion. I can't help thinking that there is a whole culture of this rebelliousness that is way over the top. I mean let's face it every teenager is rebellious to a certain extent for whatever reason but they way yobs express it is quite simply unacceptable.

No wonder they have no respet when their parents won't give them any.

That's dangerous thinking there, $loth. You should probably stop that and watch some more TV and devote your life to acquiring wealth with the least possible amount of independent thought, like a good citizen of the capitalist west.

EDIT: And also let Tony Blair raise your kids.

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o

@sloth

Dude.. This is one of those times where its a bit... Well, if you have no children yourself, its a bit one sided to think a parent should or shouldn't do something.

From the child's point of view, (and yes from parents too) it might or might not be wrong, but its arrogant to sound like you know best where someone else's child is concerned.

I can, and do employ name calling. It can be much more effectual than pain sometimes, where the child might need a whippin. I haven't whipped my children in over a decade I suppose... Thats not to say they didn't need one, but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

Well, theres a reason, but its hardly appropriate here. :sad:

Anyway, its not disrespectful IMHO. Parents have certain obligations, and quite frankly, respect isn't a priority.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I once heard a Serbian mother say "f*** your mother" to her child (I learned a few Serbian insults in school) and found it very disturbing. This insult doesn't even exist in my language (so it creates quite an image in my head).

I always thought, what kind of words there are left to use when you're really pissed? And probably there are none. Just beating the s**t of the other guy. That's the only reason I don't like extreme swearing. No buffer. Also I think it's the background and not the parents that shape a child. Usually the parents come from a similar background, so that explains blaming them. So Blair better spends the money on the area around the school rather than... super-nannies? What's his plan actually? I haven't read about it?

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Why snark works.

I once heard a Serbian mother say "f*** your mother" to her child (I learned a few Serbian insults in school) and found it very disturbing. This insult doesn't even exist in my language (so it creates quite an image in my head).

I once heard something similar. A mother told her child to "go into his mother's p*ssy", an extremely common insult here, but usually used by men. Bleh, I'm willing to bet that kid will be spouting death-threads by the time he reaches 13.

You know, we are all bound in some sense by our social,economic, and physical world as we have no choice in 'how' or 'where' we are raised as kids. You may as well be asking 'what came first, the chicken or the egg?' when you ponder what exactly it is that shapes a child. Is it the environment, is it the parenting, is it genetics..... the truth is, it is all of these things.

I do believe, however, it is the responsibility of parents to at least try and impress a higher set of values up on children and most of this should be done by setting the right examples. Do as I 'say', not as I 'do' is bulls**t, because kids learn most of these values from the very subtle or not-so-subtle actions of the people they grow up around. Put a kid in a household that says 'yes ma'm, yes sir' and they will most likely use the same language and rules for appropriateness. Put a kid in a household where it's 'f**k this, and f**k that', and believe me, that behaviour will be copied. Now, all parents lose control sometimes and behave 'outside of the norm' when dealing with kids. It's hard to fault this. I have plenty of memories of my parents losing their s**t when I pushed them too far. What worries me is the households where the parents dont even try to censor themselves around the children, and pretty much drop all of their bad habits, mannerisms, attitudes right onto thier childrens lap for comsumption, without ever thinking that maybe they aren't exactly setting the best example.

No, I don't have kids, and no I don't think it's arrogant to have an idea of what good parenthood is about, even though I don't have kids. Could I uphold the same values if I were actually in a parenting situation? Who knows - I would like to think so. My parents managed to do it, and I'd like to think that they successfully passed these values on to me.

....

As for 'yobs' or whatever they are called. Looking at this objectively - these kids are most likely under fairly extreme pressure. Most teenagers are rebellious by nature, it's that time in our lives where we are compelled to break free and redefine ourselves - it's natural. Now, couple these tendancies with an oppressive environment and basically you get little sticks of dynamite just waiting to blow. It may sound hokey, but kids like this could benefit from some sort of outlet to channel their frustration - but you know, that might actually take hard work, empathy, money, community, government support.... yeah, f**k it, may as well just 'nip it in the bud'.

I hear all the time things like: "Fat parents make fat children" or "Alcoholic parents make alcoholic children" or "Abusive parents make abusive children"

Fact is, in my time as a child and in my time as an adult, I have seen almost no correlation between these things. I have often wondered if its some scary tale they tell children to get them to eat more vegetables.

I have seen parents guilty of all these things, and seen relatively stable children come out of the situation.

My point is, you will grow up to be whatever you end up being because thats the choice you made.

shrugs

Anywho's, what were we discussing again?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

My chief (if you can call it a theory) is that kids become little s***s by being given too much attention, ie, being treated as if they are the center of the universe. If people act like they are, the children are likely to act as if they are.

If little Johnny is rolling around on the floor bemoaning the fact that mommy won't buy him any candy, I say let him roll around, ignore him, even walk away (but make sure you can still see him). Eventually he'll get the clue that wailing at several thousand decibels won't have any effect, so why try it?

Disclaimer: I don't condone ignoring the child completely, just when he's pulling a stunt like this. If he scrapes his knee, I'd come to his aide.

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Also change the texture of the dock. Docks are rarely tile. -Facepunch
As I Lay Dying

EDIT: Well the think is that poor parents seem to be more liable to make mistakes like that.

@ Orpheus: We were discussing about anti social behaviour in teenagers from poor backgrounds.

I must say that what Reaper47 and The Snark Father have said does further my theory that financially poor parents lead to poor parenting which in turn leads to the teenagers mixing with other teenagers who have already turned into yobs thus turning themselves into yobs.

And Andrei what you say is true, that's why so many yob teens are involved in fights and other such violent activities.. I am aware that alot of the people coming from Romania and Bulgaria are trying their utmost best to get out of the yob infested neighboor hoods and have a better life.

Also another thing I forgot to mention is how the people a teenager mixes with affects his or her behaviour. I am certainly not into this wishy washy nonsense of "helping" the yobs becuase such methods have been tried and tested and the outcome has resulted in the people trying to help the yob in question unable to trust it.

Flynn said:
@ Orpheus: We were discussing about anti social behaviour in teenagers from poor backgrounds.

You have got to be kidding me?

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The best things in life, aren't things.

I believe I was responding to this:

Orpheus said:
Anywho's, what were we discussing again?

:smile:

And, I believe I was responding to the word in red... Yes, I was quoting you but I was a bit thrown off by the insinuation that poorness produces anti-socialness.

I was in no way trying to call you into question.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

maybe it's a combination of bad parenting coupled with having bad friends who would encourage the teenager to become a yob. But I have actually had a few encounters with them and if you try to tell them a fact (for example) that they don't like they simply come back with abusive comments and reasons that don't make any sense whatsoever so this leads me to believe that they must be lacking in I.Q. somewhat.

Let me provide you with a generic example: a man approaches a group of five yobs drinking beer and smoking. One of them drops an item of litter. The man asks "Excuse me young sir but could you please put that litter in the bin" and the yob replies "I'm sorry but I don't fink I want to mate" the man replies "Then why should you drop it in the first place? Surely it would be easier to simply deposit it in the bin."

the yob replies "Who are you to tell me what to do?" The man replies "Well I am a citizen living in this country and I like to see it tidy" the yob then turns abusive for whatever reason they do (Maybe they are so stupid that they can't put up a proper argument) and says "Your a poof" the man then replies "What have I done to deserve being spoken to in such a way?"

the yob then says "You come 'ere bofer me and me mates while we were just havin' a good time" the man then says "Well then why did you drop litter?" the yob says "because I felt like it". I mean honestly for the average decent citizen it is a lose-lose situation. How can you reason with people like this?

Master Flynn, I'd be much more apt to believe your example story if you would consider substituting the poor person with a rich one and then convince me that there is a difference. (please do not feel compelled to believe that you are being placed into any position, where you must convince me of anything.)

I know that this may be off topic, since you feel compelled to go into a direction that precludes rich brats, but just for the sake of argument, do you think you'd have any better luck getting some spoiled piece of s**t to pick up that piece of litter?

I'd wager that you'd get practically the same response, albeit with a better grammatical extent. :heee:

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Social problems in Britain can never be boiled down to one simple
explanation. Blaming the parents, the schools, the justice system is an
inherent misunderstanding of why people (not just "ASBO teens) are
veering away from social morals - it's a combination of all three.

As long as we perpetuate a society based on money and posession being
status, as long as we perpetuate targets for reading/writing/numeracy
across the board, as long as we perpetuate ill guided developments for
"deprived areas", as long as we perpetuate a justice system weighed in
favour of the criminal - blah blah blah.

I could go on a big long discussion about this, but there's two points -

a) Britain is the worst socially (when taken in account with the rich
and poor of the EU) of the EU states - I don't think our Canadian,
American, German, Romanian, Swedish, etc, friends can understand our
problems. We cannot understand theirs.

b) Things won't change. 'Democracy' is picking between the best of 3
evils. The system is so far gone in that bringing about a huge change
within the current machinery of government and international legal
context is 99.9% impossible. As with the end of all empires, the only way to stop the rot is "collapse".

I think point A is highlighted well - Orpheus, no disrespect, but you
have no experience with Britains large social problem - Flynn's example
isn't taking into account status of rich/poor upper/lower class - that
isn't how the problem in this country is divided at all. While i'd
agree the majority of extreme anti social behaviour is concentrated in
the deprived areas, it is naive to put it in terms of "upper and lower
class" - it's a societal problem based on respect and morals which
flies across the board, made even harder to distinguish by the fact
that within Britain, the burgeoning middle class of the late 80's
onwards has made economic distinctions between community factions nigh
on impossible except in the most extreme examples.

Darwinian survival does not apply to the human species. When idiots are reproducing faster than geniuses and doctors are healing the weak, it's easy to see why humans are getting stupider and weaker with each generation. Add capitalism and materialism to the mix and the resulting mess is called society. The stupid strong beat you up and rob you, and the smart weak get scam the government, and don't get me started on the stupid weak.

"The fittest shall survive yet the unfit shall live." - DEVO

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Better to be in denial than to be human.

Bill Gates understands binary: his company is number one, and his customers are all zeros.

Discounting my ignorance with regards to British youth issues, my point was simply to show that anti-social behavior isn't exclusively a poor persons burden.

I fully acknowledge that American youth and poor have some commonalities, but rich kids go awry, too.

Sometimes I feel its like this: When a rich kid kills itself, its tragic. When a poor kid joins a gang, its expected.

In other words, people correlate money to the ending result.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Lack of morals. Too much media influence. Need Christ.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Orpheus said:
Discounting my ignorance with regards to British youth issues, my point was simply to show that anti-social behavior isn't exclusively a poor persons burden.

I fully acknowledge that American youth and poor have some commonalities, but rich kids go awry, too.

Sometimes I feel its like this: When a rich kid kills itself, its tragic. When a poor kid joins a gang, its expected.

In other words, people correlate money to the ending result.

Yes I think I'm going to have to agree with you on this one.

<span style="color: white;">

Lack of morals. Too much media influence. Need Christ.

Please leave the religion out of this, for just once leave the religion or sexuality out of the conversation. Pretty please?
</span>

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''Everyone wades in s**t until they're competent enough to walk on it. Jesus style.''
Dystopia - Empires

Rich kids can decide to stop being a prick when they're grown up with the help of their parent's money. Poor kids have to work hard to get out of their situation. That's the only difference I see.

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Why snark works.

Pvt.Scythe said:
<SPAN style="COLOR: white">

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quote:</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Lack of morals. Too much media influence. Need Christ.

Please leave the religion out of this, for just once leave the religion or sexuality out of the conversation. Pretty please?
</SPAN></div></div>

Dude it was a joke!!! We all know to leave the religion out of it.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

But where will they be without christ and bhudda?

"Buddha"

"Bhutan"

Close, but no Cigar. :biggrin:

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com