PitCrew the original

Regardless of everything else he has said, DocRock has a very good point that when making a map you should take gameplay and weapon placement into account in a big way. He's right that a lot of maps these days look astounding but lack fun gameplay.

Sometimes this means having lots of weapons - if your map vision calls for it. However, other gameplay styles call for other methods of weapon placement and not all maps should have tons of weapons. You cant make a bad map good by just slapping down weapons everywhere.

Doc....be aware that some of us around here do have commercial experience...KungFuSquirrel, and myself to name two.

Just posting to confirm that little bit. Actually have some other work lined up very shortly, but need to finish learning Maya to ensure the spot. Whee, Maya! :razz:

Anyway, I'm staying out of this discussion otherwise. Too many varying opinions with too little openness to the possibility that others might also be correct. This isn't cut and dried black and white here; there's a huge slider of greys in between, none really more acceptable than the other.

You guys crack me up.. Lets all pat each other on the back, and then drop our pants to see who really has the bigger penis..

I dont map for you, I dont map for anyone other than me. If by some chance my map gets on a server and is played.. great, if not, I had fun making it.

I must admit, I like to be praised for my work, if its good.. who doesn't? Sure it would be nice to get paid to map, or game design, or do HTML.. but I do it anyways.. because its something I enjoy doing.

Why does everything got to come down to who can piss further than the other guy, or who has a better map? Did you enjoy making it, did you get your idea across, do you enjoy running around your map? Then Forget what everyone else thinks..

I have so many ideas for maps in my head, and I wish I had the talent to do them all.. And the tools.. but at this time I dont, I am by far not the best mapper here, but I have a good time mapping none the less.. and enjoy coming here for advice, and to share my ideas with you, and to converse.

Cant you guys drop the piety bickering and just do what it is you do?

We all have ideas of what looks right, and what works, what is great about this site and others like it are, you get a chance to see your idea though many eyes, and maybe get an idea you didnt have, or a way to do something better than you had it..

So why all this fighting?

Maya for level design? Ack! Hopefully only for props and static meshes, eh?

For lowpoly (without animation) I find max to have far superior polymodeling capabilities.

DocRock said:
I really can't answer that question, Jeff. Why do you only ask it of me, tho? Are you not a mapper as well? Why aren't your maps good enough for a commercial game? Why aren't Gollum's or Yak Fighter's? Why aren't anyone else's here on this snark pit site?

I've only released two maps in 5 years...who would hire someone with a body of work like that?

scary_jeff said:
That's some good logic there Doc... "more people do it, therefore it must be right". I still haven't got an answer from you to my question: "If these maps you advocate are so great, why does no comercial game come with DM maps of this type?".

I think you guys sort of missed his point. Jeff wasn't suggesting that many of us are profesional designers, that was a statement about mapping style, not individual pices of work.

Doc: that was not a dig at you for not having anything published comercialy. he was simply pointing out that no comercial game has ever been released with a killbox style map. it was a dig at your style of mapping though. :biggrin:

Also, I beileve Orph is talking about a certian type of player, generaly those who are about 12 years old. he was not saying that all players are simple.

/50 cents (it was definatly more than two)

Tracer Bullet said:
he was simply pointing out that no comercial game has ever been released with a killbox style map.

What do you call "Hang 'em High" in Halo then?

Haven't played it.

I am not close minded, nor am i stupid, i acknowledge that a portion of the people online like, and/or actively seek out garbage maps. it doesn't matter if we differ in opinion on what EXACTLY qualifies as garbage, the point is, any map made will find someone to frag it.

secondly i only know how to have fun one way while fragging, and consequently i make maps that reflect that ideal.

thirdly, we may disagree on which of the original HL default maps is best, we can all agree that they are great, and all for the same damned reason, quality construction and at least well thought-out item placements, that doesn't mean the BEST item placements, cause everyone has their opinion of that, but definitely WELL THOUGHT OUT PLACEMENT.. there are no quality maps released with games that have haphazardly thrown around items.. ANYPLACE!

lastly, whether you believe i have a point or not doesn't matter one bit, i will only release maps that I FEEL are at peak quality, and people whom release less quality maps have no opinion otherwise.

doc rock, if you measure success in total played maps, then YOU AND I are just about even, on total numbers, but that still does not put you in the same league as i in quality, whether you measure quality the same or not, we definitely follow divergent paths.. so bottom-line, you have not the experience in the quality i produce, to have an informed opinion on my maps, so i ask you to leave them all alone, including this one, you just don't have what it takes to give an educated opinion.

guys, this thread was started to acquire mapping feedback, i listen to all advice, but as i counsel to others, you only need use what you feel is best, and thats exactly what i intend on doing..

please do not turn my mapping thread into your own battle grounds, whether you have big penis's or not i don't care, this map is way to important to me, to allow substandard mappers to ruin it.

thanx for any feedback so far, good and bad, it is ALL appreciated.

mazemaster said:

Tracer Bullet said:
he was simply pointing out that no comercial game has ever been released with a killbox style map.

What do you call "Hang 'em High" in Halo then?

a piece of crap, like the majority of the mp maps released with that game

Yes, Halo had VERY poor level design. The Bungee mappers really liked colored lighting though. The only redeeming multiplayer maps are the outdoors ones - now those ended up pretty nice.

Orpheus said:
doc rock, if you measure success in total played maps, then YOU AND I are just about even, on total numbers,

Hate to continue this argument, but thats just plain false. Doc's maps are the most played on the internet of a custom mapper, excluding killbox. Not that it makes them better, I just want to correct the misinformation.

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mazemaster said:

Orpheus said:
doc rock, if you measure success in total played maps, then YOU AND I are just about even, on total numbers,

Hate to continue this argument, but thats just plain false. Doc's maps are the most played on the internet of a custom mapper, excluding killbox. Not that it makes them better, I just want to correct the misinformation.

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mazeman, ... arguments aside.

my maps were played, long before docs, back when they were harder to get approoval..

damnit, what makes you think differently? HL has been here 5 years, dozens of servers had false_accretion and deja_vu_2 on them in permanent rotation, doc s**tty maps didn't even make it onto those servers.

i am not here to dredge up past glories, just to finish my map... i could be mean here but won't.

i like you maze, but you owe me an apology, i am betting, my few maps still talley as much as docs. funny thing is, i am never the guy who boasts that point tho :sad:

in fact maze, the fact that your comment is un-proven and un-provable (at least as much as mine is) insists you apologize if for no other reason than i deserve the benefit of the doubt. this is after-all my thread, about my pet project, i didn't actively seek out bad advice from anyone, including non-important server stats (which i might add, should i care? after-all shutting down his own server would seriously put a dent in those figures)

i realize your comment was intended as unbiased, and for that i thank you deeply, but your words tarnish my own numbers, and that is not exactly fair, considering i have no screenshots to show if i indeed have comparable numbers or not, but i will gladly accept any pics you have from 3 years ago that show doc rock can compete with any orph made map in server time.

mazeman, that really hurt.

Who cares how much playtime on servers your maps get? It's no measure on quality.

Doc you didn't even understand my question. And I pose the question only to you because you are the one saying how 'everyone plays these maps so they must be good'. It has nothing to do with what maps I have made whatsoever.

But if we do look it it from your point of view, of the people I know that have become proffesional level designers, all of them were authors of proper, balanced, well built, well thought out levels, not killboxes or anything approaching that style of map.

I thought it might be a good way to illustrate what I was saying.

And it was. You made your point exactly and to contradict it, I pointed out that comercial games don't come with these kinds of maps - my point being that surely a comercial game would want the best, most fun multiplayer possible, and so surely to acheive this, following your statistics, they would use maps like yours? But wait.... they don't.

Orph, I think that overall your maps are far superior in quality to Doc's, but statistics are what they are.

mazemaster said:
Orph, I think that overall your maps are far superior in quality to Doc's, but statistics are what they are.

since my disputing it further would gain nothing but hard feelings, i will bow to your counsel. i still think you are mistaken in those figures, but also since its 3 years in the past at the very least, i couldn't begin to prove it.

i have the distinction of having my maps, played on servers along side true masters, and few here can claim that as well.

i suggest that we forget docs attempt at distracting us from a worthy goal, which is to create a map to be proud of, and then let the players decide if its their style of map.

This discussion has reminded me of a pointless story I can tell:

It's the first (and only) time I ever played Cataclysm on a public server...one minute after loading one of the players loudly declared, "This map sucks. Change it." And it was changed to an old crappy arena map whose name escapes me. I cried myself to sleep that night :biggrin:

Haha. :smile:

I just want to say it again though, how much your maps get played on servers is no measure of quality. My maps get played on NO servers but that doesn't mean i suck... i don't right? :smile:

But i agree with Orph, lets just forget about it and finish this darn map. Oh and when will the next one be made? I want a section! :biggrin:

I'd be all for making another one sometime - my time for mapping is next to nothing these days but I could certainly spare the time to contribute to a group effort.

Oh and another little piece of feedback I forgot to mention before - the steam noises in my section are defeaning! I think they should be reduced to 1 or 2 in volume.

Orpheus</A>
</B>doc rock, if you measure success in total played maps, then YOU AND I are just about even, on total numbers, but that still does not put you in the same league as i in quality, whether you measure quality the same or not, we definitely follow divergent paths.. so bottom-line, you have not the experience in the quality i produce, to have an informed opinion on my maps, so i ask you to leave them all alone, including this one, you just don't have what it takes to give an educated opinion.

Mazemaster has already cleared the fact that my maps are tremendously played more than yours, so I won't go there, but, to say that I don't have what it takes to give an educated opinion is just wrong to say. If you are speaking of knowledge of hammer, I believe I have more knowledge there because I can run circles of multi-managers around you and leave you dumbfounded. Of course, this is just one entity in a mass of many, but just that one entity can make a difference between light and day in a map (literally). You need to know how to use a mm if you even dare to call yourself a mapper.

? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=Orpheus"">Orpheus</a>
secondly i only know how to have fun one way while fragging, and consequently i make maps that reflect that ideal.

I would bet every mapper does that exact same thing. I know I do. I believe I've stated that quite a few times here, yet when I do, I get hammered for my map building techniques...when all I do is build maps the way I like to play em and the way my "groupies" do. Doesn't seem quite fair, does it?

Ok, I'm done for now. I had to step up tho here...it warranted a response.

Now back to your regularly scheduled map discussion.

I like pants.

Mr.Ben said:
I like pants.

So that's the way the wind blows!

personaly prefer to chase skirts. :biggrin:

DocRock said:
Orpheus</a>
</B>doc rock, if you measure success in total played maps, then YOU AND I are just about even, on total numbers, but that still does not put you in the same league as i in quality, whether you measure quality the same or not, we definitely follow divergent paths.. so bottom-line, you have not the experience in the quality i produce, to have an informed opinion on my maps, so i ask you to leave them all alone, including this one, you just don't have what it takes to give an educated opinion.

Mazemaster has already cleared the fact that my maps are tremendously played more than yours, so I won't go there, but, to say that I don't have what it takes to give an educated opinion is just wrong to say. If you are speaking of knowledge of hammer, I believe I have more knowledge there because I can run circles of multi-managers around you and leave you dumbfounded. Of course, this is just one entity in a mass of many, but just that one entity can make a difference between light and day in a map (literally). You need to know how to use a mm if you even dare to call yourself a mapper.

? posted by www.snarkpit.com http:>Orpheus</A>
secondly i only know how to have fun one way while fragging, and consequently i make maps that reflect that ideal.

I would bet every mapper does that exact same thing. I know I do. I believe I've stated that quite a few times here, yet when I do, I get hammered for my map building techniques...when all I do is build maps the way I like to play em and the way my "groupies" do. Doesn't seem quite fair, does it?

Ok, I'm done for now. I had to step up tho here...it warranted a response.

Now back to your regularly scheduled map discussion.

nobody cares

enough of this pointless debate

Yak is an eternal fountain of wisdom :biggrin:

Yak_Fighter said:
nobody cares

NOBODY!

truth be told, i just cannot grasp the concept of that many stupid people, so please allow me my ignorance.

Silence, as they say, is golden.

tell you what doc, i'll trade you tit for tat, the very next time i visit your server and comment upon how crappy it is, or its content, feel free to retaliate in kind, till then, you have no viewpoint or opinion about my projects, skills or lack of any portion thereof.

i at least admit my deficiency in MM's, you have yet to acknowledge yours in everything other than MM's

lets just leave it as, you got in the last punch, go tell all your friends how you put me in my place.

i say this once more, you have not the experience in this level of mapping to give an educated opinion.. be that good, or bad.. your style of mapping is oil on my water, it won't mix.

so till i visit your website and make an ass of myself there, desist being one here.

Still failing to answer my question, Doc. At least if somebody flames me I bother to address the points they make :smile:

scary_jeff said:
Still failing to answer my question, Doc. At least if somebody flames me I bother to address the points they make :smile:

jeff, been a few weeks, lets do somethin..

you got any ugly females i can talk about?

any ugly guys for that matter :wink:

you know what i like best about our fights/flames? they end.

Orpheus said:
i at least admit my deficiency in MM's, you have yet to acknowledge yours in everything other than MM's

mmMmm, harsh

Orpheus said:
you got any ugly females i can talk about?

You can use my ex-girlfriend.

OOH! STONE COLD!

TBH you should all STFU :razz: But I'm not going to say that, because i'm nice.

And not Cassius.

*doncage

Cassius's avatar is giving me seizures... It's almost as if it's more of a penalty to me for having to look at it than Cassius himself. Is it possible to replace it with something more, erm, muted, perhaps?

Like I said, Lep seems to have changed my avatar to this for no apparent reason, and it's locked on this image - I can't upload anything else to replace it, nor remove it altogether. Correctly, were I being punished for something, I believe my sig would be turned into something like 'I'm a stupid git,' or something equally British.

So, I intend to post as often as possible (staying clear of the area of spammage, obviously) until the currently living users of the Snarkpit takes a sudden and sharp decline due to this most visually displeasing avatar. If said avatar has already claimed the life of you or a loved one, simply direct your below-the-belt, snide comments towards Leperous, for he won't let me change it.

By the way, CJ, my mom says I am rather handsome, so STFU!!!!!!!!!!! NOOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

this has got to be one of the dumbest ass turns in a thread ive ever heard.....give it a f**king rest ladies eh?....get on with the business at hand.....please.

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Silence Cassius, your avatar "R win!1"

Cassius said:
Like I said, Lep seems to have changed my avatar to this for no apparent reason, and it's locked on this image - I can't upload anything else to replace it, nor remove it altogether. Correctly, were I being punished for something, I believe my sig would be turned into something like 'I'm a stupid git,' or something equally British.

personally i am at a loss, we only have one active member whom deserves this avatar, and frankly its not you, /me has to wonder, are you behind on your suck ass payments or something? cause if you need some, you can borrow any you need from the person who should have this avatar, cause he obviously has plenty, else he would have it instead of you :wink:

seriously tho, i thought only totally useless members had this problem.

pssstt....orph...its cass man.... :heee:

Doc B... :dodgy:

Dr Brasso said:
pssstt....orph...its cass man.... :heee:

Doc B... :dodgy:

whispers

yeah i know, theory still holds..

course i am biased, i like the little asswipe :wink:

ROFLMAO..... ...yer easy....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

Dr Brasso said:
ROFLMAO..... ...yer easy....

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

so sue me, i have my picks, cass is among those, who couldn't offend me if he tried, squints at andrews recent bitch/gripe yeah andrews one too :/

i can't help it, i have people i trust and those i don't.

for all my faults, i am faithful to those i feel justify my admiration.. it took a lot for doc rock to fall off my list, but it proves that it is possible..

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<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold" bgColor=black>? posted by www.snarkpit.com http:>Orpheus</A></TD>
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<TD bgColor=#151515>so sue me, i have my picks, cass is among those, who couldn't offend me if he tried, squints at andrews recent bitch/gripe yeah andrews one too :/

i can't help it, i have people i trust and those i don't.

for all my faults, i am faithful to those i feel justify my admiration.. it took a lot for doc rock to fall off my list, but it proves that it is possible..

if it makes ya feel any better, i am the same way.... :heee:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

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<TD style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; COLOR: gold" bgColor=black>? posted by <A href="" target=_blank users.php?name='Orpheus""' <A>www.snarkpit.com</A> http:>Orpheus</A></TD>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#151515>so sue me, i have my picks, cass is among those, who couldn't offend me if he tried, squints at andrews recent bitch/gripe yeah andrews one too :/

i can't help it, i have people i trust and those i don't.

for all my faults, i am faithful to those i feel justify my admiration.. it took a lot for doc rock to fall off my list, but it proves that it is possible..

if it makes ya feel any better, i am the same way.... :heee:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>yeah doc, you are on that list too :smile: .. course some would wonder if thats a good deal or not..

funny thing is, if i went to another website and saw someone bad mouthing doc rock there, i would feel compelled to defend him, since he is a part of snarkpit, albeit, a questionable one.. i would do it for anyone.. the pit, is the pit, and no one messes with its family.

loyal to the end....good man. :wink: take note kids, its a lesson in integrity.

now...can we get back to the map?....wtf is going on with it now?....i'd like to see it done before the second one implodes....dont ask me why, im a voyeur that way... :heee:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

i am adding all the ents, and doing "onlyent" compiles, the sounds are giving me fits ATM, cause many don't work, and thats normally no problem BUT with a map this big, i have to physically walk around and listen to see where i fouled up.. and go back into hammer and track the issue down..

this map is endlessly huge to view in hammer.. :sad:

lastly, i am tired, i been running for 3 weeks all over the US, and its taken its toll, i cannot seem to sit at my editor for more than a few minutes.. i dont want to give up on it, so i am going slow, the sounds are pissing me off.. and not to mention adding weapons/ammo ala docrock, a few more can't hurt :wink:

? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=Orpheus"">Orpheus</a>
funny thing is, if i went to another website and saw someone bad mouthing doc rock there, i would feel compelled to defend him, since he is a part of snarkpit, albeit, a questionable one.. i would do it for anyone.. the pit, is the pit, and no one messes with its family.

ty

ahhhh.....peace in the valley....w00t! :smile:

Doc Brass... :dodgy:

how very unsettling :razz: