Bah, politics!

Bah, politics!

Re: Bah, politics! Posted by WarloK on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 2:01am
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Nickle and I had a debate on politics, and the justification of Britain being dragged into the Iraq war. So i'd like to take this up in the pit.

What do the rest of you have to say on the matter?<html><head><link rel="stylesheet" href="themes/standard.css" type="text/css"></head><body topmargin=2 leftmargin=2>
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Gwil on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 2:08am
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I don't see why we joined in. This "special relationship"
justification just doesn't wash. Ideally there would have been a
referendum on it, but hey, what can you do?

As long as we don't do the asshole thing and pull out too early, i'm
beyond trying to explain why and how we got into this bloody mess.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Juim on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 3:20am
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Absolutely agreed Gwil. People all over the globe are always on about Americans now, thanks to George Bush and his more than obvious ties to American Oil and their subsequent agendas, but the American soldiers are there for a bigger purpose, albeit masked behind said agendas. It would be a shame to pull them out before there mission is completed, creating yet another generation of frustrated under-appreciated soldiers.(can you say Vietnam?)
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 8:13am
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What I don't get is why countries like Bulgaria and Romania agreed to
sending troops in Iraq. I know their contribution isn't exactly
generous, but IMO 1 soldier is too many. I can assume it was all part
of an ass-kissing strategy.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by reaper47 on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 12:22pm
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Every 14-year-old kid watching the news could see that the Iraq war was unjustified or at least shortsightedly planned. I don't believe that politicians are that stupid, though. They had a very desperate reason for doing it anyway. Sometimes I think it's more than just oil... but what I don't know.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 1:13pm
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And now there's that Iran crisis. Somehow, knowing that Iran have
nuclear weapons makes me feel less uneasy than the fact that an idiot
like Bush has nuclear weapons.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Thu Apr 6th 2006 at 1:17pm
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I still have faith enough to believe that "Oil" wasn't the deciding factor. Whenever I look at the gas pump, I waver in that faith but.. I keep thinking "We can grow our own gasoline, why is it still so high?"

As far as why Britain, or any other country joining? Well, the way I see it is this. Even when its a poor choice, if you cannot talk your best friend out of a self destructive mess you join him to see to it that he doesn't do to much damage.

Perhaps Britain joined to keep tabs on the USA and make sure, to the best of their ability, that we do not screw the pooch to badly.

As I said, If they couldn't talk us out of it, then being friends it was their obligation to help keep it as civil as possible.

shrugs

Simplistic, but I bet its a fair assessment.

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Bewbies on Fri Apr 7th 2006 at 12:02am
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bush's fault.
the players tried to take the field
the marching band refused to yield
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Fri Apr 7th 2006 at 3:51am
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I can honestly say that I appreciate the soldiers.

There are people over there that hate all westerners for no real reason and would kill us all if they had the chance. Those soldiers, whether they are Bulgarian, Romanian, UK-ian or USA-ian, are killing those bad people and keeping them from having hatefull little children. It will all turn out for the best, even if it WAS unjustified, good things will happen soon I think.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Fri Apr 7th 2006 at 10:16am
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There are people over there that hate all westerners for no real
reason and would kill us all if they had the chance. Those soldiers,
whether they are Bulgarian, Romanian, UK-ian or USA-ian, are killing
those bad people and keeping them from having hatefull little children.
It will all turn out for the best, even if it WAS unjustified, good
things will happen soon I think.
You see, that's the kind of mentality that many americans need to get
out of their heads. Do you really think people in the
middle-east hate the west and the US because it's in their genetic
make-up?
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by reaper47 on Fri Apr 7th 2006 at 5:53pm
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I can honestly say that I appreciate the soldiers.
There are people over there that hate all westerners for no real reason and would kill us all if they had the chance. Those soldiers, whether they are Bulgarian, Romanian, UK-ian or USA-ian, are killing those bad people and keeping them from having hatefull little children. It will all turn out for the best, even if it WAS unjustified, good things will happen soon I think.
ouch... the question is why do they hate Americans. I'm absolutely sure that all the islamistic propaganda is only the tip of the iceberg, an aftereffect. And going there starting just another war they have no chance of winning "fairly" (-> terrorism) certainly wont improve the relationship. The only solution would be to "kill 'em all"... and we're Germany 1933-1945. History is an ironic bitch.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Fri Apr 7th 2006 at 7:07pm
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we KNOW why they hate americans. It's because we are like the biggest sinners in the world to them. We have shows ABOUT sins and we have everything we could ever want and we still want more.

Not only that but westerners have been screwing brown people for ages. It's just that everyone else has gotten on with thier lives.
  • We're the great satan (according to THEIR beleifs)
  • We're responsible for the turmoil there, only not really, because BRITAIN is the one that screwed everything up over there a long time ago.
  • We're greedy bass turds
  • They're hateful
It all adds up to form a bad situation.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by pepper on Fri Apr 7th 2006 at 7:55pm
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Britain indeed screwed up big time over there, but you cant quite blame em. I think it was the responsibilty of all of us to act. But we didnt.

Really, its just a group that f**ks it all up for the others there. Most people i've met that came from those country's are really friendly and open. Just as in every culture it are the small minority's that screw it for all of us.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by FatStrings on Tue Apr 11th 2006 at 3:02am
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the funny thing is nickel, some of those really are true
for example:

we are greedy ass turds
and at this point we are most of the turmoil over there
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Forceflow on Tue Apr 11th 2006 at 8:37am
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I don't think the question is wether or not there is a problem with the people in the Middle-East. Because there isn't. Hell, we've got terrorists in Europe too. ETA, the bloody IRA (sure sure, they cut it down on the shooting stuff, but still ..).

The 'War against terrorism' (hate that word, sounds like a bad, bad Tom Clancy book) should not be fought on a battlefield in Iraq. That's like claiming that Iraq is chock-full of terrorists. (Which it isn't !)
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by ReNo on Tue Apr 11th 2006 at 12:49pm
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Sounds like a premise for a Clancy book, but he'd never use a title quite as bad as that :biggrin:
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by rival on Tue Apr 11th 2006 at 3:26pm
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I have long since stopped trying to argue with any one over this particular issue for two reasons: 1) I don't have a solid opinion on the matter 2) each arguement for and against it cancel each other out, eg. there werent any weapons of mass destruction over there, we shouldn't have gone. Yes we should have because we got rid of a tyrant. See each arguement cancels another out, just too hard to explain why or why not. We should be arguing over what we are going to do now we are over there.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by FatStrings on Wed Apr 12th 2006 at 3:26am
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but iraq must be full of terrorists isn't it part of the axis of evil
rival makes a good point<br style="color: white;">
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Wed Apr 12th 2006 at 5:41am
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"Terrorists" is a word that gets thrown around way too much. Let's stick with "assholes" instead. It makes is seem like SO many more people deserve to die. Which they do... Assholes....

Seriously though, this is going to sound harsh, but I've got two things relating to today's news.
  • Muslims need to stop hating ppl and get over it. We need to get out of Iraq and start worrying about assholes in N. Korea and Iran, with thier nukes and crap.
  • Illegal immigrants need to go the f*ck home and stop breaking or laws. We can't support everyone: if people in other countries are dying, let them ask us how to make THEIR country prosperous like ours and don't get all pissed when we tell them what to change. Confucius said: "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime." So instead of sending money and food one-at-a-time and having them come over here, we go over THERE and we teach them how to get thier own food and how to get thier sh*t together.
Yesterday, someone told me that we ought to let anyone and everyone who wants in into the country without any system and let them just cross the borders and such. Then we ought to raise taxes, stop spending on the defense budget and give those people the extra money the government will have gained. That is BULL---SH*T!
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Wed Apr 12th 2006 at 11:32am
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I somewhat agree with what you say about immigration, but isn't that a
little idealist? There are way too many factors involved. You can't
just expect such a large number of people to change overnight. There
will always be that "the grass is greener on the other side" mentality.
And even if 99,9% of all Mexicans decide to stay home and make their
country better, there will always be that 0.1% that will get the rest
to say "f**k this, i'm going to the US like [insert catchy mexican name
here] did." Viva the herd instinct.

As for Iran and Korea having nukes...I really don't see why Iran and
Korea can't have their own nuclear programs when that asshole Bush
affords to publicly state that the US is mining and enriching uranium for...secret
projects. The US should disarm themselves before going on a crusade to
disarm others. But they won't, will they? Why? Because they're afraid
of being harassed by other countries that will refuse to disarm the
moment they will have buried their missiles? The same thing applies for
Korea and
Iran. So what do we do? Drop cruisemissiles at everyone we fear or
dislike? That indeed sounds like the Bush-way of dealing with things.

I'm such an asshole.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Wed Apr 12th 2006 at 7:30pm
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I see it this way. If people, both westerners and easterners, are weak willed enough to buy into the propaganda of hate, there is little we can do about it except wait for some kind of an eye opening experience to enlighten them.

If people, specifically Arab nations, truly hate the United states, I doubt very,very seriously that the hate is from anything first hand in experience.

That said, propaganda is a powerful tool and can be used in reverse. If the nations that are hated do not do anything to disillusion the propaganda then they are wrong by lack of incentive. [edit] I meant to say, "initiative"

Anyway, thats my take.

As for myself, I hate ignorance. If someone hates me without knowing me, then their hate lacks any power to influence me what so ever.

The best things in life, aren't things.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by pepper on Wed Apr 12th 2006 at 8:21pm
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Your quite right there Orp, people get influenced so easily by what they see and here on TV and Radio, quikly considering it as legitimete and as the truth. As U2 Sang:

When fact is fiction and TV reality

One great example of this is offcourse WWII, but a more interesting one is the witch hunting in Europe in the 16th century. With fear for the unknow feuled by the domican church people started seeing wiches everywhere.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by FatStrings on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 1:28am
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yeah people believe the media way to much, which of course happens to be almost completely controlled by the government of course, i have to agree with orph and pepper

but andrei seriously didn't you read the memo, only the usa gets nukes noone else<br style="color: white;">
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 12:45pm
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but andrei seriously didn't you read the memo, only the usa gets nukes noone else<br style="color: white;">
What I was trying to say was that the US refuse to give-up on nukes for
the same reason Iran and North Korea refuse to give-up on their nuclear
programs.

And I still don't see why the US is more trustworthy than Iran.

Ok, this is getting old. For the sake of decency, let's talk about
something else. Yeah...unnatural weather we're having, don't you think?
:heee:
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 1:12pm
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Andrei said:
And I still don't see why the US is more trustworthy than Iran.
For the sake of not sounding overly patriotic, the USA is a bit more trustworthy than some nations. I do not know enough to specifically point out which but I do know that there are nations that I would not really like to see have nuclear arsenals.

The USA dropped 2 bombs. I happen to be one of those people who think, in hindsight, that it was the best course of action to follow. The US of 1945 didn't have enough knowledge in nuclear weaponry to be dropping those bombs but in the end, the action proved to be the best or all the worse possible solutions.

That said, the US has had numerous occasions for dropping many more bombs and yet, has not done so for reasons I suspect are purely selfish ones but whatever the reason, I am glad that none have been deployed.

Most, if not all of the 3rd world countries currently wanting a nuclear weapons option, are about where we were in 1945 and as I said before, we did not have the capability of understanding exactly what that responsibility portended.

Back then however we had...10,000 megaton bombs? Now we have bombs that make those 2 look like fire works on some summer nights celebration.

3rd world countries do not need that capability. Now, or ever.

/2 cents

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 1:39pm
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I guess it's true. But maybe the reason they didn't drop any other
bombs was because they were afraid of a similar response from their
target or from any other hostile nation? I shudder to think how Bush Jr.
would have handled the Cuban missile crisis, though. [edited]
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 1:43pm
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I dislike him as much, or more than most yet... There was ample opportunity to drop many such bombs and none fell.

Its not like we have a shortage on the things and need to conserve them for some future event. The point is, I am hopeful that checks and balances are in place that are sufficient to forestall such a dropping.

If Bush could have gotten away with it, they would have been used. That much I am certain of. Since none fell, he obviously had insufficient powers to employ.

Good thing all around methinks.

The best things in life, aren't things.
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 2:55pm
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I think that until bombs can be made to have a lot less fallout and effects on the WHOLE world, we ought not even consider using them.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 3:02pm
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Nickelplate said:
I think that until bombs can be made to have a lot less fallout and effects on the WHOLE world, we ought not even consider using them.
Depends on what you consider "Fallout"

Me personally? I consider "Ramifications" a major portion of fallout. There are other definitions besides the particles from the sky.

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 4:00pm
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well I've got no problem with wiping out a whole bunch of hostiles at a time, but having damage spread over the whole WORLD to do it is not cool. If we ever nuked Iraz or any of those guys over there, We'd hit a bunch of our aLLIES like Israel.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by rival on Thu Apr 13th 2006 at 10:36pm
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antimatter bombs are the solution!
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Fri Apr 14th 2006 at 4:01am
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antimatter bombs cannot exist, i mean. seriously, if antimatter explodes on contact with matter, then what kind of casing would you use to contain it til explosion? even an antimatter casing would explode on contact with the air which is regular matter... dang.

but you're right, they ARE the answer. lol
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by wil5on on Fri Apr 14th 2006 at 11:21am
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The antimatter would be held in a vacuum chamber with a magnetic field which prevents it from colliding with the boundary of said chamber, then the field is switched off to detonate the bomb.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Andrei on Fri Apr 14th 2006 at 12:09pm
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How about neutron bombs? They only kill living things, leaving
buildings and vehicles perfectly intact and ready for occupation. AFAIK
they don't have any large scale side-effects.

Oh, and guys...you just nuked Dark_Kilauea's sig :lol: .
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by rival on Fri Apr 14th 2006 at 1:10pm
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wil5on said:
The antimatter would be held in a vacuum chamber with a magnetic field which prevents it from colliding with the boundary of said chamber, then the field is switched off to detonate the bomb.
exactly what i was thinking.
one would only need like pin head sized pieces of antimatter for kilotonne yields
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Sat Apr 15th 2006 at 3:22am
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wil5on said:
The antimatter would be held in a vacuum chamber with a magnetic field which prevents it from colliding with the boundary of said chamber, then the field is switched off to detonate the bomb.
I thought about the vacuum, but I didn't think about the magnetic field. does antimatter have magnetic fields? and if so, is its field reversed in polarity from the regular version of the element?
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by wil5on on Sat Apr 15th 2006 at 9:17am
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I really dont know enough physics to say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure you can hold anything in place with a strong enough magnetic field. I dont know how the fact of a substance being antimatter changes its magnetic properties, I suspect it would not. Magnetic fields will be used for similar purposes in fusion reactors, I imagine the principles are similar.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Hugh on Sun Apr 16th 2006 at 4:34am
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Orpheus said:
Back then however we had...10,000 megaton bombs?
Old quote but anyhoo, the biggest ever detonated was 50 megatons, and the ones used on Japan were 21 and 16 kilotons.
One day you'll know what you're talking about, I can hardly imagine

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Nickelplate on Sun Apr 16th 2006 at 7:56am
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WHOA!! 16 Kilotons? That's almost as much as Your Mom. :leper:
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by DrGlass on Sun Apr 16th 2006 at 8:26am
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just want to make a few points related to some stuff in here.
  • Islam doesn't hate America, Ratical people who use Islam as a
    tool to "con" gullible people into blowing themselves up hate
    America. Its kinda like slave owners teaching blacks about the
    great reward of Heaven to keep them in line, and we dont blame
    christianity for slavery.</li>
  • while the US has only dropped 2 A-Bombs ever, there have only
    been 2 bombs ever dropped. i.e. USA has dropped 100% of offensive
    atomic bombs. All though, I would trust the US with nukes before
    I would trust Iran with them. But the point is that NO ONE should
    have nukes, its M.A.D. to use those kinds of wepons.</li>
  • You cant fight terrorist, its simply a paradox. Bomb a
    building kill 3 people inside, 1 known terrorist and 2 other possible
    terrorist. No matter what thats 3 members of 3 families.
    I'll bet that most people here would want to bring the killer of their
    family member to justice... it just so happens that the planes dropping
    those bombs had USA plastered all over the side. There is a great
    flash game that illustrates this point perfectly, I'll try and find it.

    </li>
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Sun Apr 16th 2006 at 11:42am
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<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Hugh</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
Back then however we had...10,000 megaton bombs?

</DIV></DIV>

Old quote but anyhoo, the biggest ever detonated was 50 megatons, and the ones used on Japan were 21 and 16 kilotons.

</DIV></DIV>

Thanx.. I knew I was wrong but, the premise remains. We have much bigger ones now.

maybe I heard it was 10,000 kilotons.
Oh well, thanx anyway.
DrGlass said:
while the US has only dropped 2 A-Bombs ever, there have only been 2 bombs ever dropped. i.e. USA has dropped 100% of offensive atomic bombs.
Don't quote me on this because I am only "almost" sure.

To my knowledge, this world has very low yield atomic weaponry that we have used numerous times. In fact many countries have them.

We also have dirty bombs that cause all kinds of damage, but I am not sure if any of those have been used at all.

The point is, there have been more than 2 dropped, but only 2 were note worthy.

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by wil5on on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 12:18am
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"Kilo" means thousand, "mega" means million, so 10,000kt is actually 10Mt. The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs, as stated before, are on the order of tens of kilotons (16,000 and 21,000 tons), so the figure you probably heard was 10,000 tons (meaning the explosion was equivalent to 10,000 tons of TNT being detonated). But yes, the point is, current nuclear weapons are roughly a thousand times as powerful as the first generation.

A number of countries have nuclear weapons, the US, the UK, France, Russia, India, Pakistan, China, and possibly Israel and North Korea. Any country which has nuclear weapons has detonated them in controlled environments for testing purposes. However, only two bombs were actually used in anger. Research has gone into creating low-yield nuclear weapons for destroying bunkers, but none have been used. Dirty bombs are purely terrorist weapons, their purpose is to spread radioactive particles in a large area. Its arguable whether these have been deployed militarily, depleted uranium rounds could be considered dirty bombs as a side effect of using DU.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 12:46am
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<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting wil5on</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>However, only two bombs were actually used in anger. </DIV></DIV>

I dunno why, but that really bothers me. Being of a military background, I don't see it as an angry response. Maybe its simple semantics but I just don't see it as such.

The bombs were dropped to save lives. It killed many, it prevented many more.

It would be the same as shooting Hitler before 1939 to prevent WWII. Its on another scale as far as numbers and the lives destroyed were nonmilitary but its basically the same premise. Japanese people were at that time all soldiers. Civilian was just a state of not being conscripted yet.

I will contemplate your words some more, but it really does bother me that you, or anyone views it as an anger action. :cry:

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by rival on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 12:52am
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Orpheus said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting wil5on</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>However, only two bombs were actually used in anger.
I dunno why, but that really bothers me. Being of a military background, I don't see it as an angry response. Maybe its simple semantics but I just don't see it as such.

The bombs were dropped to save lives. It killed many, it prevented many more.

It would be the same as shooting Hitler before 1939 to prevent WWII. Its on another scale as far as numbers and the lives destroyed were nonmilitary but its basically the same premise. Japanese people were at that time all soldiers. Civilian was just a state of not being conscripted yet.

I will contemplate your words some more, but it really does bother me that you, or anyone views it as an anger action. :cry: </div></div>

i agree.
but anger or aggression are still appropriate terms. well... depending on how one interprets them
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by wil5on on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 1:04am
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I thought the term "in anger" was used to describe any action against an enemy. I can see your point, and we can debate all day whether dropping the bombs was neccessary, or justified, but the fact remains that it was an act of war, an attack in anger.
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Orpheus on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 1:15am
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wil5on said:
I thought the term "in anger" was used to describe any action against an enemy. I can see your point, and we can debate all day whether dropping the bombs was neccessary, or justified, but the fact remains that it was an act of war, an attack in anger.
Justification aside. Have you ever contemplated wars? The people fighting them almost never start them so "Anger" isn't a factor.

I doubt the people who made the decision was even out of their underwear yet. The point is, anger isn't a factor, at least not as much as one would think. Fear on the other hand, thats definitely a factor. People fight, to prevent being killed. The almost never fight because they are angry.

It still bothering me, but... I am trying.

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Dr Brasso on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 1:15am
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well, as the story goes, the bombs were dropped so as to relieve the USA of the burden of the casualty count from a mainland japanese invasion....on both sides. i dont believe it was other than a calculated move, as strange as it may sound, to save lives.....whether it worked out i suppose is the subject of another thread...

...........in other words, it wasnt out of anger

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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by rival on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 1:29am
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but it was an aggressive act, or offensive

edit: since it saved many lives then could to be said defensive too
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Re: Bah, politics! Posted by Gwil on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 1:34am
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it saved countless lives by showing the presidents/premiers never to unleash the weapon on the world again.

arguably :razz:
Re: Bah, politics! Posted by wil5on on Mon Apr 17th 2006 at 4:47am
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It is still in anger, even if the guy who dropped the bomb was not angry. "In anger" is the term used, to avoid confusion between shooting bullseyes and shooting people. I appreciate the whole bomber crew probably just wanted to get the job done and go home, but they werent the ones who decided the bomb should be dropped. Even if it saved lives, it was still an attack against Japan, and whoever gave that order decided to kill thousands of Japanese. Even if the attack saved lives, and even if it was in self defense, it was in anger.
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