Snarkpit 20 Brush Map Competition

Monhay might have used displacements like here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/snarkpower/articles/game/cat/pn/tp/146/Texture_alignment_through_arches_using_displacement_maps

To cut down on the brushes.

I thought about making the larger block accessible but I think it's best to have it as a visual thing not to mention I've reached my 20 brush limit now so it would be quite difficult to properly integrate. I'm just going to leave it as an anomaly/visual piece like the mysterious island in the first level of Goldeneye.

---

Aaron's Stuff

omegaslayer said:
Monhay might have used displacements like here:

http://www.snarkpit.net/snarkpower/articles/game/cat/pn/tp/146/Texture_alignment_through_arches_using_displacement_maps

To cut down on the brushes.

So let me get this straight cause I am still confused: The block tool takes "1" brush and makes it many brushes (the number you set before hand) and then the displacement tool makes it "1" brush again?

This is how you make arches with one brush?

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Ok I'm not too sure on where the confusion is coming from so I'll try to explain the whole lot

In the source engine, any many others, brushes have to be convex. That is to say they can never "bend in" on themselves at all. It's a really important fundamental that is one of the most common causes of people creating invalid brushes with vertex manipulation.

Curves like those in Muhnay's walkways are concave shapes. The inside edge of the curve bends in to the shape, hence it is concave. This sort of shape cannot be created from a brush, because the brush would be concave and hence invalid. So when making shapes like that you need to build it up out of multiple brushes, each of which convex.

The arch tool does exactly that. You can see each individual brush quite clearly as the edges are visible. The arch tool groups the brushes together when it builds them for convenience, but if you select it and ungroup (or use the "ignore groups" button) you'll see that each segment of the curve is just a regular old convex brush.

Now as omega pointed out, you can use displacements to get around this. Displacements may be based upon the face of a brush, but they are not brushes. Just like they don't block VIS, they are not bound by the same convex-only restriction. So as shown in that tutorial you can move the vertices around however you see fit, and in doing so you can create concave shapes like that arch.

HOWEVER, each displacement you use only covers one face, and each displacement you use (if the rules are the same as Mapcore's) counts as a brush. So to create the curve shown in that tutorial would actually cost 4 brushes - one for the displacement on the top face, one on each side, and one on the bottom. As Muhnay was already using 4 brushes on each corner, this wouldn't actually result in any saving. On the other hand, it would let him create a much more smooth curve while still just using 4 brushes.

I hope that's clarified things and not just further muddled them!

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

ReNo said:
Ok I'm not too sure on where the confusion is coming from so I'll try to explain the whole lot

Given the participants you can still wonder? Seriously Duncan, it seems that only I am the confused one. I still fail to see whats the difference between using the arch tool (which converts one brush into many) and overlapping brushes (which also creates many).. That's how the confusion originally began. I cannot see any difference. Each action creates more brushes. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE in in the editor before its compiled and you check the "Map information of brushes used"

ReNo said:
HOWEVER, each displacement you use only covers one face, and each displacement you use (if the rules are the same as Mapcore's) counts as a brush. So to create the curve shown in that tutorial would actually cost 4 brushes - one for the displacement on the top face, one on each side, and one on the bottom. As Muhnay was already using 4 brushes on each corner, this wouldn't actually result in any saving. On the other hand, it would let him create a much more smooth curve while still just using 4 brushes.

Given what you just indicated, if someone used the arch tool with more brushes to smooth the edges, someone could save solids with the displacement I suppose. Then again, no one will see the under side of the path so the bottom displacement might be unused.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

I think that the aim of the contest is just to use 20 convex brushes as they're defined in hammer. Don't worry about the post-compile result of how they get chopped up and handled by the game engine itself, as by that point they've ceased to be brushes anyway and been chopped up and combined where possible into faces. Making a brush overlap and pass through others to come out the other side is messy, but it's still just one brush. When you create a curve with the arch tool, it's made up of more than one brush instantly, it isn't converted in any way, it's just made a bunch of brushes that are grouped in the same way you might group any set of brushes yourself.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

To quote another Rascal "Ohtay fine"

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

ReNo said:
HOWEVER, each displacement you use only covers one face, and each displacement you use (if the rules are the same as Mapcore's) counts as a brush. So to create the curve shown in that tutorial would actually cost 4 brushes - one for the displacement on the top face, one on each side, and one on the bottom. As Muhnay was already using 4 brushes on each corner, this wouldn't actually result in any saving. On the other hand, it would let him create a much more smooth curve while still just using 4 brushes.

I was actually thinking the entire displacement could not only be the curves, but also the straight walk way. Which, in theory, would only count as 3 brushes (top and two sides, no need to do bottom) per side of walk way, so he could reduce both sides to a total of 6 brushes.
___________ -> \\________/

A bit late, but this is my first attempt. I call it "Small and ruined".

[URL=http://img12.imageshack.us/i/dmsmallandruined0000.jpg/][IMG]http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9135/dmsmallandruined0000.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]

I made it for maybe 20-30 minutes.

But it's ultra small. So I might make something else.

Edit:

Here is the new one:

[URL=http://img52.imageshack.us/i/dmcratefigt0000.jpg/][IMG]http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9310/dmcratefigt0000.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]

I made it for around 10 minutes...

Now I have to decide which one to give...

---

Never think about bad things!
TNKqwe:The New Killer qwe
[img]http://images.quiz.wegame.com/production/personalities/22/badge.jpg[/img]
I am Engineer - Play Free Online Games
[img]http://media.moddb.com/images/global/moddb_88x31_v12.png[/img]
Citizen Arms

Tnkqwe your first map looks more like a construction site than it does ruins to me and judging by the screenshot you've only used 3 textures. Maybe the brick texture on the outside perimeter of the map could be something else? The corner peices you have at the top of the concrete framework could also be textured in something else. Just to add some more variety to the map.

And in your second level the containers look huge compared to the building texture on the outside of the map. It's also very flat.

---

Aaron's Stuff

Trying to take advantage of displacements, textures, bold form. Exactly 20 right now, counting func_dustcloud in distance. I'm using 9 displacements, if I remember correctly.

Really awesome Finger! Looks like it's been inspired by hl2 episode 3 You would have never thought that was under a 20 brush limit. The brushes really compliment the displacements and the fog adds a lot of depth.

Are the power lines in the background a flat plane?

Here's mine so far: (too much cubemap reflections on the floor texture)

---

Aaron's Stuff

Thanks Aaron. I've always wanted to do something with the snow/ice textures. The powerlines are textures I made - I've applied them to 2 brushes, to give the illusion of smaller details for scale.

Nice, very very nice.

[EDIT] If you don't mind me saying this Finger, your map (looking @ the pic) is better than anything I've seen, both here and Mapcore. Yeah, I've got longtime friends at both sites so there's no favoritism.

You guys make me proud your here and on some levels are both inspire and intimidate. I'd give my ass to have your imaginations.

Now mind, I like how I map, but I'd love to expand it a bit too. I still map by HL1 guidelines. I cannot help it I guess. Even with this 20 brush comp all I could think of was R_Speeds.... Truth be told, I dunno if that concept even applies anymore.

Anywho's if you don't have to much fear of theft I'd like access to your VMF (after the end of the comp). It would help me greatly to see how this or that is done. Also, any spare VMF's you have laying around.

My biggest hurdle at present is getting used to mapping again after so long not touching any editors. It took me over an hour to get the sun/light to shine downward. How freaking stupid is that?

Anyway, great job guys.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Very Nice Finger.. that is the type of thing I was talking about in another thread.. has that awesome DOCTOR EVIL, James bond future 1960 look to it. Where Dr. Evils Army of Nazi like goons prepare to take over the world or hold it for ransom for 1 million dollars. Like a hidden submarine base. Very cool!

Yeah now I understand the brush count deal.. I am way over.. oh well.

Don't forget guys entries are due this tuesday night which for me is tonight! Even if you think your entry wont win or you don't have enough time to finish it, I would still like to see it and comment on it.

You have to post a "layout" screenshot showing clearly the entire layout of your level and an "aesthetic" screenshot to emphasis the beauty of your level. In addition you can provide a download link to the bsp (or vmf) if you wish but don't forget to supply any custom content as well.

I'll also be making a voting thread so no need to worry about that.

---

Aaron's Stuff

Thanks for the complements guys, though in my humble opinion, I attribute it to a well composed screenshot (she doesn't look quite as good up close). Because of the degree to which I'm pushing the displacements, there's spots where the textures stretch quite a bit. Btw, this is about the 5th version of the map; it took me a while to figure out how to compose it all.

Orph, you're more than welcome to see the VMF when I'm done. I'll post screens of the layout tomorrow.

5 brushes, 2 textures.

[URL=http://img132.imageshack.us/i/565460000.jpg/][IMG]http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/8610/565460000.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]

Not bad 8chaos. I think though that you should utilise all 20 brushes and maybe tone down the hdr.

---

Aaron's Stuff

Rightio here's my entry:

Asomatous Arena Just a note, none of those screenshots have been photoshopped. I took advantage of a weird glith in the second shot.. for some reason the skybox became unaffected by the fog when I turned the flashlight on.

---

Aaron's Stuff

Looking pretty cool Aaron - I dig the textures and light/dark theme. I'm doing a final compile now, but I have to go to work - will be uploading later tonight.

i read this article on mega textures, so i made four displacement brushes 4096 units each, and went into photoshop and made a new texture 8192 pixels height and width.

i loaded several materials into photoshop for the stamp tool, and drew the terrain, then broke it up into four 4096 vtf files... ok now i made 4 brushes in hammer 4096 units put the texture scale to 1 and got something like this.

[URL=http://img233.imageshack.us/i/49695728.jpg/][IMG]http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2231/49695728.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

i compiled the level under counter-strike source first, because i was touching up another level i was working on at the time. and i got something like this.

[URL=http://img560.imageshack.us/i/cxvcxv0000.jpg/][IMG]http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/5086/cxvcxv0000.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://img717.imageshack.us/i/cxvcxv0001.jpg/][IMG]http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1860/cxvcxv0001.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

and a top down view to see how everything was lining up.

[URL=http://img824.imageshack.us/i/cxvcxv0002.jpg/][IMG]http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3065/cxvcxv0002.th.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

ok looks good for the most part... so i was like lets see how it would run under other mods such as half-life 2, left 4 dead.. ect. and as it loads up mabye 90% the engine hangs.. but it runs in cs:s perfectly at 200fps solid.

any ideas?? btw im at 16 brushes

Hah that's cool. I still think the hdr is a bit over bearing but I guess it's a "feature" of this map Did you make the skybox? It's pretty cool, I was gonna make my skybox but I didn't have enough time. It was supposed to be a space one (not clouds/sun) and I was going to render some more geometry and superimpose it into the skybox but oh well next time.

Hmm if you have 4 more brushes maybe you could add 4 rocks (smooth like riverstones and with a white/light gray texture like this im thinking) or add 4 tree sprites or something. Maybe a displacement mountain off in the distance if you can see it past the fog and hdr or add more detail to the immediate foreground. I suggest you make use of the 20 brush limit though.

"Finger" said:
Looking pretty cool Aaron - I dig the textures and light/dark theme. I'm doing a final compile now, but I have to go to work - will be uploading later tonight.

Thanks Finger!

---

Aaron's Stuff

8chaos, that has a space-Uncharted (the game) feel to it.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Here's screens from the map. I uploaded a zip to my profile map page. I packed all of the textures and files into the bsp, so all you need to do is place it in the maps folder of hl2dm or ep1/ep2. I did zip up the vmf, and asset folders, incase anyone wants to look at it in Hammer. If you do, excuse the sloppy construction. I wanted to clean it up a bit, but ran out of time. I had to clip and vertex manip a lot of brushes in interesting ways, to get the faces divided up for texturing without actually slicing the brushes into smaller brushes.. I didn't count trigger_hurt brushes in the water, or func_push that I'm using as a jump-pad, because they aren't visible brushes. I did count the fog brushes, and water brushes, however. Look forward to seeing other entries. Would be cool if we could all get together and play them sometime.

/me continues droolege.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Alrighty any others? Where's yours Orph?

It's currently 10:29am for me and when I get home at about 10:30pm tonight I'm going to make the voting thread so please post all entries finished or unfinished here by then.

So far we have mine and Finger's. As far as I know 8chaos hasn't posted final screenshots and I'm not sure what's going on with tnkqwe. I think muhnay has withdrawn from the competition because his entry was over the 20 brush limit.

---

Aaron's Stuff

Just wanted to say I'm disappointed I couldn't pull it together for this...sdk burnout / bad timimg really.

Not only that, but the idea i had was eerily similar to Finger's entry: Sub from an old X-files episode set in some ice-cap region.

Looking forward to more stuff here though

Apologies for not creating the voting thread, I'd like to hear back from Orph, Tnkqwe and 8chaos before I create it.

---

Aaron's Stuff

I won't be home for a bit yet. Go ahead guys. Please don't let me hold things up.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

i no longer have access to my files sorry guys.

Shit.

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Crono said:
Shit.

I couldn't have said it better.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Damn that sucks, well now I'm waiting for tnkqwe's response or else this is competition only has two entries.

---

Aaron's Stuff

Yeah sucks don't it, when you have a great idea, and try to build up community spirit and it gets shit on huh. Man I know how ya feel.

Yuh, I've always been loyal to this place throughout the entire time since I've been a member and I just can't help but feel the the mapping spirit has died down a lot here which is a real shame to me. I really appreciated the honesty and humbleness of this site which I think is unlike any other Half-Life/mapping community out there.

But the competition was by no means pointless. I think it sparked a bit of activity and one of the textures I made for my entry I put onto my portfolio which is a bonus! Not to mention we got to see Finger's entry which I was really impressed with. If only he made that for Mapcore's 20 brush competition (which received 19 entries) I think that would have changed the way people voted for sure.

Anyway, when I know what's happening with tnkqwe I'll create the voting thread.

---

Aaron's Stuff

I don't think anything got shit on. BUT sometimes shit happens.
Sadly there are to many variables to consider when planning things like this.

[*]Time frames. Many of us cannot do anything on such short notice.
[*]To long and people lose interest.
[*]Originality. This contest so close to Mapcores, reduced its potential.

I have an idea for the next contest already. I think I'll post it soonish.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Personally, I don't care about the competition aspect. I was just glad to make something that didn't take months to complete.

Why don't we say everyone gets a gold star and we all go play the maps finished or not after the deadline?

---

Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Sounds good to me - playing them would be a nice reward.

aaron_da_killa said:
Yuh, I've always been loyal to this place throughout the entire time since I've been a member and I just can't help but feel the the mapping spirit has died down a lot here which is a real shame to me.

You should have been here pre-HL2, thats when the spirit was really running.

Alrighty then we'll discuss them in this thread. I've uploaded my entry (bsp and vmf) and it doesn't feel right releasing this without ambient sound but I was a bit short of time.

Aaron's 20 Brush Entry

---

Aaron's Stuff

omegaslayer said:

aaron_da_killa said:
Yuh, I've always been loyal to this place throughout the entire time since I've been a member and I just can't help but feel the the mapping spirit has died down a lot here which is a real shame to me.

You should have been here pre-HL2, thats when the spirit was really running.

Its all symptomatic of the real issue. Its not so much that spirit is low. Its more that people are into themselves much more.

For instance: The interviews. If you look at the total views, decrease it by half for the non-Snarkpit views. Decrease it by half again for the repeat views. Then decrease it by half again just to cover your asses you'd still have 25-50 people commenting and rating them. Yet, as you will notice we have less than 5 maybe on some and 2 or 3 on the rest. Even though it may mean nothing to Riven one way or the other, we owe it to our site to say and do something even if for no other reason than its something you're supposed to do just for being here.

Notice any of the new maps posted in the past..... FOREVER. Times were that most would comment. Even if it were just a casual "nice" or an indepth critique. Now, we get... Maybe 2 on some and nada on the rest.

People here seem to forget that the pages show the times viewed, so you can get a feel for just how many people are so into themselves that they cannot even be bothered to say "Fuck this shit"

My personal opinion. We need to say fuck them back and just have as much fun as we can scrape together. If we pretend that this is our first week here, we have enough active members to do that much. Eventually people will either come back, or they won't but new member will come.

Our biggest hurdle is that anyone who shows up today will see that Snarkpit has been here forever and has decreased its activity to almost nothing. THAT scares them off cause they wonder why.

Sadly, you will notice that our longest members are still online someplace, just NOT HERE. That alone will eventually bring things to a standstill.

I almost wish that when Larchy had revamped this site, that he rewrote it totally so we'd at least have the advantage of newness. All we have now is stale old times to revisit.

Anywho's.. Lets see those entries posted.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Aaron, why can I not find your map in your profile? Am I missing it somehow?

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

I didn't really think my entry was worthy of a map profile but I created it just for your Orph. Except it's squashed the screenshot and applied horrible compression to it, that's not good.

---

Aaron's Stuff

For me? Have a bit of faith in yourself. If we only posted those we each thought worthy, we'd have less than a dozen maps here.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

I'd like to respond to a few of the personal observations by Orph if I may....

To note, I realize this may not be the best thread to respond to these in but regardless, it's been a while since the post I'm referencing as been added, and instead of making a new thread I'd like to keep this post succinct.

A few concerns I've denoted:

Orpheus said:
Its all symptomatic of the real issue. Its not so much that spirit is low. Its more that people are into themselves much more.

I have two counter-arguments to this personal observation. One: When there are a lack of posts, how do you know it has anything to do with people being more or less bothered with or as you put it "into" themselves? Two: Why are the lack of posts considered a bad thing, or negative aspect on the site? I do not think this is an obvious assessment.

Orpheus said:
Even though it may mean nothing to Riven one way or the other, we owe it to our site to say and do something even if for no other reason than its something you're supposed to do just for being here.

I am quite offended sometimes when I'm referred to in so many words as "not caring" as I have translated the above comment to mean, when referring to site specific issues involving member activity. Yes Orph, I realize what I have told you in outside conversations about me not minding if my interviews didn't receive comments, but to not care one way or the other would not only be an exaggeration, but a grotesque one leaning within the falsity camp.

I do indeed care about what comments I receive, and I make sure to read any and all of them, but what I said and I'll reiterate it here: I'm not going to fret if I don't get any. They are not an accurate measure to the success of the interviews, therefore, I don't relate them to that factor. They are an optional feature, just like the rating system.

Orpheus said:
People here seem to forget that the pages show the times viewed, so you can get a feel for just how many people are so into themselves that they cannot even be bothered to say "Fuck this shit"

Again, it appears to me that the only statistic being exemplified is the number of views on a topic and somehow, you infer that to mean: There must be too many people not feeling bothered enough to post because they must be too "into themselves" to post? I'm looking at the same number and don't read that at all.

I may be fairly young (22), but if there's one thing I've learned about people and text-based messaging (forum, phones, FB, etc...) is that the practice of sending a message to someone means you have to encode your thoughts and feelings into a language or coded message that someone else will be able to understand and decode so they may understand what you meant. The thing with texting is that it's not so great at encoding emotion, which plays a big role in human communication. Emoticons help, but they only go so far...

So when an emotion on a topic is not properly translated, the receiver is left with little to decode in regards to that emotional intent, so what ends up happening is on a very subconscious level, the mind adds emotion to an otherwise emotionless message to give it semblance to the reader, and thus an encoded text message may be read very differently by multiple people, depending heavily on what mood or preconceived outlook they may have on a matter. I think that is the case here. We are looking at facts and figures and attempting to make sense of it all, when in fact, we have no other evidence to coincide with those figures. What sense does it make to talk personal reasoning and motive behind supposed requested responses, when those reasons range much farther than your own culture and age?

I'm not afraid to admit I don't know why there weren't more comments on those interviews. I wish there were, but I'm not going to dream of reasons why people didn't post.

I just felt I needed to respond to these qualms instead of leaving it all with a stale taste in anyone's mouth. Perhaps I'm rambling again, but I hope some of that rambling made sense to you my friends?

---

Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

I read that post twice, and may have to read it again but it sounds an awfully lot like you want it both ways Riven. I know text isn't the best medium but it reads that way to me.

Understand, I may be reading more into it.

Anywho's I hope you got it off your chest. Sounded like you needed it.
I really don't agree very much but that's nothin new. I would like to stress since it seems to be the catalyst point of your posting... Not caring one way or the other does not translate to not caring at all. I honestly don't know where or how you obtained that from my inference but I felt it prudent to point that out. Being fair minded and unbiased does not equate to not caring.

/2cents

[edit]Again let me stress. I post things how I see them. I accept that it may be an unpopular viewpoint but I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what is not going to bother someone today. They will get over it just like they expect me too.
I do expect someone to post their views.. As long as they are posted in the same vein and not pointing specifically or personally. Some aren't capable of doing that and should avoid posting at those times.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.

Well, it's not so much what's actually posted that I'm concerned with, but more or less the assumptions about what's not posted.

I'm simply pointing out the supposed concerns over what's not posted, when I don't think there should be any concerns in the first place.

In other words, I'm not fretting over the supposed lack of posts, I don't think it's a lack of posts so much as there are simply less posts, end of fact. There are a myriad of reasons people stop posting, and most of them don't deal with "people [being] into themselves." -Which I'm taking to mean like a selfish indulgence of their own interests. Simply put: I think that's a broad negative stroke to paint about the kind of people we've had here in the past that probably isn't wholistically true.

Summed up even further: I think you're being too negative about the level of activity on the site. -That's all. My initial post was commenting on some of the ways people may misinterpret text messages and/or lack there-of. What I'm not talking about is how people offend one another; that's a different issue.

---

Blog: www.playingarchitecture.net
LinkedIn: Eric Lancon
Twitter:@Riven202

...and one best not hashed out in this thread. If its worth debating we can begin afresh sometime. I stand by my views though. I deal with people into themselves daily with my job and doubt very much that it doesn't happen online as well.

As a matter of fact, I am stuck in Houston tonight because a gate guard cannot be bothered to check why my load isn't ready.. He actually told me to go away and return in the morning. Mind you, this is a 24 hour facility.

---

The best things in life, aren't things.