You all saw this coming...

On 9-11, 2001, i woke up laying next to my TV, which i had left on... I looked over and i saw two buildings on fire, but didn't think much of it. I got up, and walked into my parents' room where i woke them up and told them, "something important is on the news.. a fire or something". I walked to the kitchen, heated up a hotpocket, and walked back into the livingroom... I don't see my dad cry very often, but this wasn't going to be a kind of day that comes along very often. I didn't ask what was going on - i just went back to my room, hoping it was something serious enough to cancel school. I walked into to my room just in time to see a replay of the first plane crashing into the world trade center. So, just like millions of other americans that morning, i sat, glued to the TV... Many emotions passed through my head, but I seemed to land on anger. I had no idea who Bin Laden was, but i was being told to hate him by the TV... so i did. I was being told that he resided in the country of Afghanistan, so i hated the country. I was told he was a muslim - i was stupid. :redface:

Unfortunately for me, this wasn't serious enough to cancel school over. My mom scolded me for being late and sent me to school. When i got there, only about half the students showed up. Some people were crying, some people were laughing about it. Some people were talking about how muslims did it. In my first 5 classes, we just watched TV. But, in my 6th... Mr. Lambert was talking about the attacks on a personal level. Then, we had a discussion about who to blame. The whole class seemed to agree that the muslims were to blame. Lambert smiled and nodded. Then he went on to actually show us the difference between muslims and muslim extremeists. I'm kind of trailing off now.. hehehe

ANYWAY... My dad wasn't much of a cryer, so i wasn't either. But, after school that day, it really sunk in. I realized what had happened. I did cry, and i still do a little bit every time i think about it. This is my own little way of honoring those who died on 9-11... with the tears of Tim.

http://www.gunstuff.com/america-attacked.html

I woke to the phone ringing, and had my brother telling me to turn on the TV. I watched for about fifteen minutes and quickly grasped, that as always, the idiotic american media knew absolutly nothing, and was just repeating itself over and over.

I was not suprised, shocked, or really emotionaly affected in any way. I've long thought that a major terrorist attack on the united states was just a matter of time. I was just happy it wasn't a nuclear weapon, and that it didn't get me or anyone I know.

inccidentaly I still think that a nuclear detonation in an american city is simply a matter of where and when. I have very little doubt that it will happen.

when you are this optomistic about the world, a few thousand unknown people dying has very little affect.

this is a very good illistration of humanity:

This really is a day to remember, a day of saidness, but also a date where the world turned against muslims. A date where the world got split in two: Muslim vs. Non-muslim; terrorists vs. innocent people. It's not a good thing for the morality of the people. Try to blaim one person, not his whole kind of people.

http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html

doc....

thanx for that link....i didnt really think it would effect me like it did, but all the emotions came flooding back...i went through the emotions in stages, just like on 9-11-01....and i am once again.....highly angry....we will not forget, we will not relent, we will not compromise. i will never forget where i was that day, nor the ones who gave all.....peace my brothers....all of em.....

Doc Brasso.....

i am a canadian so the WTC being the target of a terrorist attack didn't really affect me all that much, but when my my mom woke me up saying 2 planes has flown into the WTC i was klike, wtf, who is stupid enough to fly 1 plane let alone 2, into 2 huge towers. you see.....i thought she ment small ones, cesnas you know? but when i saw it...i was like...WHAT....THE....SHIT.....

at the time, my grandfather was on a flight to toronto for business, and that day my grandmother phoned to ask if we knew which planes from where were highjacked, she was worried it had been his plane, but i dint know so i couldn't tell her anything.

thanks for reminding me not to turn on any news channels today.

I saw someone with "911 never forget" in their name in IRC. BANNED. If people start using american flags for avatars I swear I'll puke. 911 was a horrible thing, but let people deal with it in their own way. and don't pretend it has anything do with patriotism.

No offence or distaste to Americans meant, but we don't see much trumpeted anniversarys of pearl harbour, ww2 massacres, other terrorist actions (pre 11/9). I know it's the first time theyve had to deal with this but the amount of coverage it gets and the way some people get incredibly uber-patriotic over it is more disrespect then anything else.

amen to letting all the victims rest in peace, of all the nationalities. the WTC/pentagon (yes, that got attacked too!!) attacks were damaging for the US but the rest of the world as well - life moves on.

Well said Gwil.

thank you, Gwil.

I agree, the way people have used this tragedy to flame patriotism is disrespectful. What happened on that day was an affront to humanity. Patriotism is about anything but our common humanity. The moronic little flags just perpetrate the "us vs them" mentality the terrorists had. Unfortunately most people really are that small-minded. :sad:

I was in f**king band class <.<....

 

I was a big loser back then..2 years ago!

GWILL.. well said man.. I agree.. Let them rest in peace..

Has everyone forgotten Oklahoma.. f**k.. those people moved on, and did not use thier tragedy to gain tourism, or try to wave a banner to gain attention.. no they did thier thing.. grieved.. built thier monument and moved on.

Same with Perl Harbor... N.Y. Deal with it and move on already sheesh.. Let them rest in peace already.

I dont know maybe im way off base.. but its been 2 years now.

I really had something I wanted to say here, but I can't say it without it being taken the wrong way.  All I can say is leave each other alone in how one deals with this.

I agree in leaving each other alone in how to deal with this too Edge - mine is merely an opinion :smile: I think one thing we can all agree on is some of the tasteless "memorabilia" floating around is just quite disrespectful :sad: Even though I wasn't touched in the slightest by Princess Diana's death (the most recent UK national tragedy), I was sickened to see cheap dolls and plates/posters profiteering off the death of somebody :sad:

I agree that it's a tragedy and all, and I agree with Gwil; this pseudo-patriotism just seems like an excuse to sell cheap paper flags at inflated prices. It rather sickens me to an extent.

funny thing is the night before all that stuff happened I had this weird premonition as I was walking down the stairs to my room. I felt that something really big was going to happen the next morning, I had no clue what, but it's the only time in my life that I had a thought/feeling like that. When I woke up and heard all this speculation on the radio I was thoroughly spooked.

Is this a signal I go to my admin panel and change thine name to Nostradamus?  (just kidding gorby worby!)

mazemaster said:

all 2800 and more in WTC+pentagon, all other innocents, RIP. lest we forget these all of these people, irrelveant of race or creed

Gawd you yanks should give it a rest (no pun intended). It's always the same s**t every year, another forum thread, another IRC hobo, you don't see me running around once a year on 11/11 at 11am talking bout what I was doing that day, maybe because I wasn't born, but still, let it be...

Any 11/9 threads next year I can't see lasting too long

It happend 2 years ago.  Do we still need to be talking about it today?  Alot more has happended since then, and alot more will.  Why stay stuck talking about the past?  Look at the present.  Look towards the future. 

Gorbachev said:
funny thing is the night before all that stuff happened I had this weird premonition as I was walking down the stairs to my room. I felt that something really big was going to happen the next morning, I had no clue what, but it's the only time in my life that I had a thought/feeling like that. When I woke up and heard all this speculation on the radio I was thoroughly spooked.

 

you know, I never watch TV in the morning, I almost never watch tv in the afternoon and almost never at night, but for some reason I turned on the TV that morning, the first time that year to be exact (normally I get ready for work and leave).   Pretty wierd when I think about it.

i hate to point this out, but you all seem to agree with gwil in letting it die, and leaving these people to deal with it on there own...while it seems heartless, maybe some of them would just like to forgive and forget, so by keeping this thread alive, and continueing to post in responce to, or in addition to is mearly contridicting what gwil said, and what you guys agreed to.

dont get me wrong, i am an american, and i do feel for those who lost there lives for no good reason, but that was 2yrs ago, if we had threads posted for everyone who lost there lives to hilter and his nazi scum (playin too much DOD) we would never see the end of it.

 

<P dir=ltr>http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2001/465/465p15.htm
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These camps, now dubbed ?terrorist universities? by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, ?The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism ? car bombing and so on ? so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.?

Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company ? albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with ?legitimate? business operations.
Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s ? fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.

[/quote]
Way to go CIA. So we attacked Afghanistan to get rid its 'terrorist training camps' when WE BUILT THEM and WE TRAINED THEM. Bullshit like this is why I refuse to be partriotic about anything. Our govenment is full of s**t. WE TRAINED OSAMA BIN LADEN for f**k's sake. Go America!

W00p W00p 100 posts go me...

stupid yanks D:~~

America is making too many enemies - both nations and individuals - and getting involved in too many conflicts that dont concern them.

im trying real hard to keep this thread civil in tone....but its getting tough.....

hmm...im a little surprised at the lack of emotion in this thread, especially from the folks in the USA.....with only a couple exceptions, i get this "me me me" vibe from it..as if its an inconvienience to talk about the worst attack on american soil in modern history......if youve been dealing with terrorism for so long, then yoiu should understand where we are at in the national mindset....

let it go you say....i say.."never"....

so we are stupid in america eh?.....cool

dont call us next time.....and btw, myrk, you can gfy...

....and for my american brethren....i hope its not your door they come thru next time.....

peace....

Dr Brasso....

The WTC is not here TODAY.  Our economy is still suffering TODAY. Every single person that died on 9/11 is not here TODAY. 2 years later?? DEATH IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAS AN EXPIRATION DATE. SOME people may dismiss 9/11 as a media frenzy. SOME people may think it is a poor excuse to display 'patriotism'. SOME people may think that this date doesn't mean as much as it did in 2001. But it does.

I see you people sayin that we dont treat this day the same as the past tragic events in american history. No, i don't treat the anniversary of the attack on pearl harbor the same. I'll admit that. But, my grandfather does. He was in the service at the time. Me? I wasn't in NYC on 9/11. But, i saw it happening on live TV. Regardless of what the media did, regardless of the reasons people put flags on their homes, and regardless of what will happen in the future - I wont forget.

I never thought this thread would turn into such a damn disgrace.

Cassius said:

mazemaster said:

Once again:



So to all of you who despise pride because you don't share in it; to all of you across the Atlantic who call our laws oppressive while you pay taxes to run the BBC; and to all of you who would call us 'stupid yanks';

Shove it up your ass.



 - Dr. Cassius

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Cassius said:

mazemaster said:

Once again:



So to all of you who despise pride because you don't share in it; to all of you across the Atlantic who call our laws oppressive while you pay taxes to run the BBC; and to all of you who would call us 'stupid yanks';

Shove it up your ass.



 - Dr. Cassius

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i second that...screw being nice....

dr Brasso....

They say history repeats its self.. Does anyone remember the ROMAN EMPIRE?

($)

P.S. CASSIUS.. WAVE THE FLAG MAN.. IF U WAVE IT HARDER THAN ANYONE ELSE YOUR A BETTER AMERICAN.

P.S.S. NOT!

um, what I've seen of the BBC coverage of the Iraqi War was FAR less biased and up-close than what we got over here. but hey, what do you expect when your reporters are in bed with erm i mean 'embedded' with the US troops? ffs sake did you see FOX news, they are worse than Al-Jazeera, they didn't even pretend to be unbiased.

america would be a better place if people would swallow their pride once in a while and admit that we do some pretty s**tty things. blind patriotism is for morons. it's the mindset of a fanatic.

excuse me while I excercise my freedom:



Ah, I feel much better now.

Jinx, my thoughts exactly on the fanatacism- although us Europeans share your grief over what happened along with pretty much the rest of the world, the problem today is that we see America as fanatic about it's 'freedom' and other values as the terrorists are about their beliefs. We see post 9-11 America not actually making the world a better place to live in, but installing hatred in others and fear in themselves. We also see America as being run purely on big business and using bully tactics to get it's way in the international community. That's the way it seems to me and a lot of people, and I'm just saying and not bashing Americans themselves.

You know what I say?



Respect it and each other, and that's how we'll get some peace in this world.

Leperous said:
Jinx, my thoughts exactly on the fanatacism- although us Europeans share your grief over what happened along with pretty much the rest of the world, the problem today is that we see America as fanatic about it's 'freedom' and other values as the terrorists are about their beliefs. We see post 9-11 America not actually making the world a better place to live in, but installing hatred in others and fear in themselves. We also see America as being run purely on big business and using bully tactics to get it's way in the international community. That's the way it seems to me and a lot of people, and I'm just saying and not bashing Americans themselves.

You know what I say?



Respect it and each other, and that's how we'll get some peace in this world.

Ya see jinx? There IS a way of expressing your opinion without burning a flag.

And let me tell you this; I'm not a fanatic american who screams, 'freedom freedom freedom', all over the place. But, our culture is freedom. We don't have much original culture, but that is the bulk of it. WE DIE for our freedom. WE DIE to practice our freedom. WE DIE to protect the freedom of EVERYONE throughout the world. But - around here, if anyone were to put a lighter anywhere near a flag, he wouldn't even have time to open his trap about his freedom...

I'de be lying if i said the American government was perfect. I'de be lying if i said that the American government hasn't made bad decisions. But, our soldiers didn't die to gain new governments that will allow our big businesses. Our soldiers didn't die to install hatred in other cultures. Our soldiers died to spread freedom and prosperity. True, this might seem like the thinking of a muslim extremist - spreading our beleifs where ever we can. But, do you know why nearly EVERY country practices the same freedoms as us now? What would you do if you couldn't practice the religion you wanted to? If you couldnt say what you wanted to? If you were killed for being a woman and expecting to be treated equal? Go to Afghanistan and ask the people if they are happier now than when they were 3 years ago. Go to Germany and see their booming economy. Go to France (if you are not there already) and ask them if they would rather their country was run by the nazis. These are only a few examples what american soldiers have died for. As much as I wish i could say i am one of these people who have fought in other countries, I can't. The most i can do is defend their souls from people who disrespect them.

Leper, it's pretty uncommon to find someone who can lay it down like you did. I don't live in a foreign country.. and have never even left the U.S.... so I don't really know how we look from the outside. But, if your relatives left and died for a meaningful purpous.. only to be dismissed like this.......... I totally understand that the way that you and your neighbors see America can't be changed. But please, consider what I have said. Thanks in advance ; )

And jinx... that flag represents a hell of a lot more than our government. It represents me, it represents you, and it represents EVERY SOUL that died to make this country and world how it is. This is your warning: dont post it, or anything like it, again.

I've stayed away from this thread out of respect for the emotions of people who were much more affected by "9/11" than I was.  Some of them may have lost family or friends, or maybe just were more shocked and upset by the events because they were that much closer to the carnage than I was.

To the abstract man - I don't know what it is about this disaster that upsets you so personally, simply because I don't know you.  But I respect your emotion.

It saddens me that this topic is so divisive and so difficult to talk about.  Both Lep. and Jinx have made what I consider to be incisive comments, but they will be ignored by many because they are perceived as an attack on American values.  Similarly it is common over here for people to say, "I hate America; I think everything it does is wrong", and blind themselves to the many good aspects of America.  Both sides are often so stubbornly adhered to their own prejudices that they refuse to understand any comments that might mollify them.

WE DIE to protect the freedom of EVERYONE throughout the world. But - around here, if anyone were to put a lighter anywhere near a flag, he wouldn't even have time to open his trap about his freedom...

I ask all of you patriotic Americans to think about the above.  Is this what you, as a country, have worked for?  Is this truly the freedom you want?

I think the word freedom is bandied about far too casually.  I'm not convinced many people know what it means.  Rather, it is a banner to stand under; a symbol, much like that flag which is so proudly displayed in one country and so vehemently burned in some others.  It might help if we could stop thinking about symbols and start thinking about people.

Here is a thought about freedom that I offer:

When people don't have freedom, they want it more than anything else.  But when they eventually get freedom, they don't know what to do with it.  Many of us live out our lives in a comfortable recluse from freedom; we are able to abdicate from choice by the structures that society imposes upon us.  Learning how to use freedom - how to cope with freedom without running away from it - is perhaps the task of a lifetime.

Theres nothing wrong with being patriotic. Theres nothing wrong with being patriotic in response to 9/11.

Bringing in other issues such as the Iraq war has no relevance to the above issue.

Correct me if I'm wrong but UK has more freedom than US, and we don't say we are the land of freedom!

We definitely have more freedom of expression, do anything wrong in US and you get your ass sued.

Hear about the woman who tripped over a child in a furniture store, sued the store and won. The child was her own son!

It was a tragedy, and I do feel terrible for the families of the victims, but no more so on the anniversary than any other day, and no more so for the people involved in the 9/11 attack than any other innocent victims of crime, terrorism and war.

mazemaster said:
Theres nothing wrong with being patriotic. Theres nothing wrong with being patriotic in response to 9/11.

Bringing in other issues such as the Iraq war has no relevance to the above issue.

Oh really?  Who is the arbiter over relevance?  Who decides?

You?

Your President?

Your media?

Okay, I think this thread has run it's corrosive course, people have long since stop being civil and I think you should be ashamed at the way you've behaved in this thread. 

What started out as simply a sharing of what you felt that day has been dragged through the mud by hatred on all sides. 

It was bound to happen though in all fairness. Allot of us get sick of seeing american flags plsatered over various things & having the word freedom spouted every 2 seconds. Its ok to be patriotic but you can go too far, it becomes a bit sad tbh.

Let us leave it at this.  911 happend, the WORLD was in sadness.  What else does America expect?  We hold a day of mourning every year?  Not going to happend.

911 happend 2 years ago, now forget about it.  There has been alot more important stuff going on since then, for me and probably for all of you guys as well.

Ever since I've been with the Snarkpit, the only threads to generate hate between its members has always been related to 911 and terrorism.  Leave this to the big boys running the country.  Last topic we had like this got locked, and I'm hoping this one will as well.  If you guys want to talk about it, do it elsewhere.

aparently finger has replied to this thread, but I cant see it. hope thisl display it :/

Nup, wacky forum bug which I'm trying to fix :/

I think you Brits might want to avoid further hypotheses on what life in the United States is :rolleyes:

EDIT: (In reference to the post below) I would expect that all of you who talk about gun control and stopping wars and honoring the Great Institution of the United Nations might have a little more compassion or at least respect. I have no connection save that terrorism was directed at the United States; which means it was aimed at making me scared, at making me want to give up on foreign policy and vilify the President because I need someone to blame.

I think quite a few people might want to avoid playing the offended party :rolleyes:    The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Let's face it, most of the hurt/insulted replies to this thread are gleefully sanctimonious.  They are delighted to have something to be angry about.  There's only so far you can expect people to bend over backwards in deference to your ideals.

 

I dunno how long we should let this discussion go on, but anyway.... :rolleyes:

I found 9/11 horrifying. I still can't believe people could do something so terrible to other people. It was a terrible human tragedy. I refuse to reduce it to merely 'an attack on america'. It was a crime against humanity. It was something that should have brought us all together across the world, saying "my god how could something like this happen, how can we work together to prevent this?". And for a while maybe it did. But the nationalist spin that americans and the US government put on the tragedy was used to mobilize americans into the same 'us vs them' attitude the terrorists had. And the same willingness to kill thousands of civilians if that was what it would take to win.

As for the flag... the US flag means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Burning a nation's flag- when done by people of that nation- is a strong form of government protest.

Burning an American flag doesn't mean that you want to destroy america, or hate america. It means that you feel the government, and the people perhaps, have strayed and disgraced what the flag and the country stand for. By burning the flag you are saying that THEY have dishonored it, that it has ceased to mean what it should. I wish that I could hold up an american flag proudly, that I could be something more than ashamed to be an american, but I can't do so in good conscience.

I don't see americans saying that the Iraqis shouldn't be allowed to desecrate their country's flag. For f**k's sake, we'd cheer them on. Are they entitled to more freedom of expression than we are? Do we take our country and our government to be so flawless that protest is inconceivable? And if a time comes when things get really bad, don't you want that freedom protected?

edit: btw, Gollum, great post eariler

A nice read Jinx.  True and honest

The arbiter over relevance is common sense. Being patriotic because of 9/11 has no relation to the Iraq war. Think about it.