These new ladders are CRAP!? Am I missing something?

The new ladders in HL2 Deathmatch are really really crappy and I'm hoping it's because I'm missing something. I've read the tutorials about creating the func_usableladder entity and then strecthing the bounds to create the virtual ladder... I've also created and added info_ladder_dismount entities... but here's the problem:

When you're on the ladder (just sitting there) the view bounces up and down like an 8 year old who just ate 5 bags of Skittles.

Guess what? dm_lockdown's ladders do this too!!! Did you think it was just lag? Were you so involved in the crazy physics-phest that you didn't notice how crappy they are? Start up your own server and go stand on a ladder and see what I'm talking about. PLEASE tell me that there is some way to fix this!!

Additionally, I have not been able to create a ladder that has exit points at different levels (ie: exit points at places in-between the top and bottom of the func_usableladder).

I've searched the forums here, and elsewhere and all I can find is people talking about how to create old ladders (func_ladder) or people describing as much as they know about the new func_usableladder.

I just the ladders from my old HL map, didnt get any of that bouncing. Could be just me, i havent really spent much time standing on my ladders, i'll give it a try when i get home.

I'm having the same problem with the screen shaking!!!! I can't seem to get down to a solution either after several posts on halflife2.net. It seems that the suggestions guys are making are valid suggestions, but just aren't working. I'm going to try creating my ladder as a prop_detail instead of a prop_static and see if that helps. Probably not but I'll shoot for it. I'm also going to try a couple other things.

Ian

Wait, what? How/why are you using prop_ entities for ladders??

Edit: guess I'm just behind the times, lol...which models are you guys using? BTW, I found this if you haven't already seen it: link

You use a prop entity because the ladder itself is made from a prop rather then brushes. You can still make a ladder from brushes with a texture though but the system is entirely different for getting it to work then the old system in HL1. The link you provided is the correct way to make the new ladder system but it neglected to mention on how to make the ladder itself. All they explain there is how to make it usable.

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the prop_static/prop_detail ladder model that you place in your map. You can make the func_useableladder entity and drag the start/stop points without putting a model in front of it. The model is simply to make it look like there's actually a ladder there.

but why the f does it bounce like crazy? What really gets to me is that it even does it in Valve's DM map: dm_lockdown. That completely strips me of all hope, aside from an update. I wish they'd at least let you choose which type of ladder you want. I didn't know there was a problem with n00bs sliding off the ladders... I thought sliding off the ladder at any point was a great feature (that I obviously took for granted!).

Despite the shaking, does anyone know how to make a ladder that has an exit point somewhere in the middle? Take a look at my sweet ASCII art:

Level 3

Level 2

Level 1

I want to make a ladder that the player can climb and exit at level 2, or continue climbing and exit at Level 3. I've tried stretching the func_usableladder from Level 1 to Level 3 and adding info_ladderdismount entities at all three levels, but that doesn't work. I've also tried creating two seperate func_usableladder entities (one from 1-2 and the other from 2-3) and then creating info_ladderdismounts at level 1 & 2 for the first ladder, and on 2 & 3 for the second ladder, but the player does not seemlessly get transfered the the upper ladder after reaching the top of the first ladder. I found that if I'm at the peak of the first ladder and I press jump, I can get onto the upper ladder, but that is so completely NOT intuitive.

Help!

If you read the link I posted it makes some mention of info_ladderdismount...

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nanodeath</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>If you read the link I posted it makes some mention of info_ladderdismount...</DIV></DIV>

Yeah, I read the valve-erc article, and I'm using ladder dismounts.... but hmmmm... perhaps if I place the dismounts at the top of the lower ladder (instead of only to the sides of it) then it will dismount right at the peak, and the player will automatically be transitioned to the upper ladder. I'll have to give it a shot when I get home.

Still doesn't explain why it's so shaky. :sad:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting motionblurrr</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nanodeath</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>If you read the link I posted it makes some mention of info_ladderdismount...</DIV></DIV>

Yeah, I read the valve-erc article, and I'm using ladder dismounts.... but hmmmm... perhaps if I place the dismounts at the top of the lower ladder (instead of only to the sides of it) then it will dismount right at the peak, and the player will automatically be transitioned to the upper ladder. I'll have to give it a shot when I get home.

Still doesn't explain why it's so shaky. :sad:

</DIV></DIV>

Doh! I wasn't able to get it to work that way either. It seems that there is something about the dismount points that doesn't allow them to work if they are not to the side of the func_usableladder entity (ie: they can't be directly above it).

This might work,

The problem (i think) comes from the invisible force field used for physics (so you can grab, push throw them). Now I'm not at home so I can't be sure. But try this

Create a prop_static ladder. Try and change the phyisics field (the purple ball in 3d view to as small as you can get it) Actually with static I don't think it even has one. But if it does shirink it in the 2d view.

Then just create a very thin rectangular brush (same size as the ladder) and texture it with the texture called LADDER. It is a texture like the skybox and nodraw but it is red/orange. now place this brush right up close to the Prop you used as your ladder

As the LADDER texture is invisible, the player thinks he/she is climbing a ladder but infact is climbing and invisible brush. I have tried this method of creating a ladder and you can get off anywhere. You don't need to specify mount and dismount points. Its all up to the player. Hope this helps (and works)

Well, that's the HL1 way of doing it...But you brought up an interesting idea of reducing the "physics field". In fact, you can turn off its physics entirely by setting Collisions to Not Solid for the prop_static. Perhaps that will help with the HL2 ladders? Or it might make them completely unusable, I dunno :wink:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nanodeath</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Well, that's the HL1 way of doing it...But you brought up an interesting idea of reducing the "physics field". In fact, you can turn off its physics entirely by setting Collisions to Not Solid for the prop_static. Perhaps that will help with the HL2 ladders? Or it might make them completely unusable, I dunno :wink: </DIV></DIV>
I don't think it has anything to do with the prop_static (or prop_detail) model. You can create a functioning ladder without any model at all and it still has these same problems. The only difference is that it looks like your climbing a ladder that isn't there. The model (prop) is just to let the player know about the func_usableladder.

I don't recall this happening in SP mode at all. For the hell of it I opened up the lockdown and moved the useableladder back from the model a bit just to see if maybe it was a collision issue. Nope, same thing. Can be on an invis ladder in middle of room bouncing like a freak.

Since this doesn't happen (as I remember!) in SP mode, I'm going to throw a guess that it is somehow related to prediction code. When you're in the middle of a climb and stop there, I wonder if the prediction engine is constantly trying to predict an up or down movement since it knows you are "in the process" of climbing something, in some direction up or down. Just a wild guess. Sorta makes sense to me at the moment so I figured I'd throw it out there.

Of course, this is only valid (if at all) if the prediction code is/can affect your own movement. I remember, in Quake 1 or 2, that early on (way pre-patches) a heavily lagged game could make you move around (simular to this but slower, more jelly-like) even when you were not moving at all.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting MeatStick</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I don't recall this happening in SP mode at all. For the hell of it I opened up the lockdown and moved the useableladder back from the model a bit just to see if maybe it was a collision issue. Nope, same thing. Can be on an invis ladder in middle of room bouncing like a freak.

Since this doesn't happen (as I remember!) in SP mode, I'm going to throw a guess that it is somehow related to prediction code. When you're in the middle of a climb and stop there, I wonder if the prediction engine is constantly trying to predict an up or down movement since it knows you are "in the process" of climbing something, in some direction up or down. Just a wild guess. Sorta makes sense to me at the moment so I figured I'd throw it out there.

Of course, this is only valid (if at all) if the prediction code is/can affect your own movement. I remember, in Quake 1 or 2, that early on (way pre-patches) a heavily lagged game could make you move around (simular to this but slower, more jelly-like) even when you were not moving at all.</DIV></DIV>
Hmm, I think prediction is done on the other side. It shouldn't need to predict where I am, only where others are. :smile:

I agree about SP vs. MP -

I believe this ladder shakiness has to be like the elevators and
the physics objects in multiplayer... the shakiness for elevators
and ladders is not unlike standing on physics objects. Most
likely some kind of patch will have to be released to fix the problem.

Meanwhile I would still think multiple levels of exit points
would work. If I remember correctly from HL2 SP you had to hit
jump (spacebar) to exit a ladder in the middle, but it seemed like the
exit points were working fine in the middle levels of long
ladders. Of course I thought about creating two ladders on top of
each other, too, to fix your problem, but am not surprised that it's
not the correct solution. I would have expected one long ladder
with exit points where ever a player should be able to exit...

If you want to verify that ladders work correctly in SP, you
could place an info_player_start in lockdown and load it up in HL2 SP,
no?

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Cyantist</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I agree about SP vs. MP -

I believe this ladder shakiness has to be like the elevators and the physics objects in multiplayer... the shakiness for elevators and ladders is not unlike standing on physics objects. Most likely some kind of patch will have to be released to fix the problem.

Meanwhile I would still think multiple levels of exit points would work. If I remember correctly from HL2 SP you had to hit jump (spacebar) to exit a ladder in the middle, but it seemed like the exit points were working fine in the middle levels of long ladders. Of course I thought about creating two ladders on top of each other, too, to fix your problem, but am not surprised that it's not the correct solution. I would have expected one long ladder with exit points where ever a player should be able to exit...

If you want to verify that ladders work correctly in SP, you could place an info_player_start in lockdown and load it up in HL2 SP, no?
</DIV></DIV>
Good idea, I'll give that a shot when I get home.

motionblurrr said:
...
Hmm, I think prediction is done on the other side. It shouldn't need to predict where I am, only where others are. :smile:
...

Let us know for certain after you take a look at the source code. Since it happened as I described in Q1 or Q2 early on, anything is possible, including potentially stupid-possibilities such as the one I described :smile:

Obviously the netcode of games have come a LONG long way and gotten much more INET friendly, and having prediction (or related) code running on client doesn't make sense in general (if ever), but it most certainly seemed to be the case for the example I gave so it did happen at some point.

In any event, nothing yet explains why this strange/annoying problem happens on official Valve HL2DM created maps. With the attention to detail they seemed to show throughout the entire suite, if it could have been solved using the editor-alone I assume it wouldn't be present in their maps. Sounds like a code issue. Maybe it's just code related to physics. Hopefully they'll care, figure it out and fix it.

okay, I got mine to work now!

You've got to overlap the two entities like this:

. ..................................................||+ <---3rd level dismount point
. ..................................................||+
................................................... ||
. ..................................................|| <----third func_ladder
. ..................................................||
.Keep one space between func_ladders||+ <---2nd level dismount point
. ..................................................||+
. ..................................................||
. ..................................................|| <----Second func_ladder
. ..................................................||
.Keep one space between func_ladders||+ <---1st level dismount point
. ..................................................||+
. ..................................................|| <----First func_ladder
. ..................................................||
. ..................................................|| <---ground level

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>okay, I got mine to work now!

You've got to overlap the two entities like this:

. ..................................................||+ <---3rd level dismount point
. ..................................................||+
................................................... ||
. ..................................................|| <----third func_ladder
. ..................................................||
.Keep one space between func_ladders||+ <---2nd level dismount point
. ..................................................||+
. ..................................................||
. ..................................................|| <----Second func_ladder
. ..................................................||
.Keep one space between func_ladders||+ <---1st level dismount point
. ..................................................||+
. ..................................................|| <----First func_ladder
. ..................................................||
. ..................................................|| <---ground level

</DIV></DIV>

Can you post a .vmf with that? It might be a bit easier to read. :biggrin:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting motionblurrr</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>

Can you post a .vmf with that? It might be a bit easier to read. :biggrin:

</DIV></DIV>

I will have to post it in a few hours, but yes, I'll try to get my VMF screenie on here.

Well, this seems to be the popular ladder thread, so I'm going to ask in here instead of cluttering the forum up:

I've got a map going. I've put three ladders into it already, they all work fine. I tried to put in a fourth ladder and it won't work. It's like it's not even there.

I tried to use the sv_showladder 1 command and it didn't show anything (not even the other working ladders). Tried it in DM and SP modes, both with -dev -console. What am I missing that will let me see the ladders?

I have deleted and rebuilt that 4th ladder in a different location, still won't work. It's suppose to be a hidden ladder, without a ladder model. I thought that might be the problem, so I put in a prop_static just to check, still no good.

It's making me a little nuts.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

D-Gen

So I see you got your ladders working on multiple dismount points, however, any new stuff on the shakiness? I'm still trying to solve this, although it may look like it could be a code issue from what I read...hmmm...any further ideas on that?

Ian

Yeah, I'm almost positive that the shaking/bouncing/jittering (whatever you want to call it.. thought I'd use a few extra words to help others who might search for this topic) is caused by physics. Most likely Valve realized that the normal ladder system caused some kind of problem with multiplayer games... they probably want everything that moves to move with the use of VPhysics, rather than little tweaks to the elevation, so that they would properly react with other vphysics movement throughout the level. It really is almost identical to what you experience on rising platforms.

OK, Nickleplate, where's that VMF. :smile: If you want, I can host it on my website and we can link it here.

Where's the VMF? :smile:

These ladders seem scary. why cant people just fly... and what was wrong with the hl1 func_ladder

Edit: whoops didnt read above post , But are we still allowed to make the old ladders(do they still exist)?

Yes you can still use the old style ladders, but the new ones have
advantages. Mainly that you can only move up and down not left
and right which can be annoying in some maps. Also the dismount
places create spots the you could not use the old school ladders easily.

Trying right now to create a multi floor ladder but that description is not enough to suffcie :razz:
I still can only get the switch to work when i jump :sad: . There
has to be something you can do with triggers to turn off one of the
ladders when you reach the other one.

Something I noticed about the new ladders is that you cant go from standing to crouching on them. However you grab the ladder is how you stay throughout your climb. Why does this matter you ask? Well it makes it difficult to climb up an get into a shaft where the player needs to be crouched in order to enter. If the player doesnt crouch before going up the ladder, he cant get into the shaft.

Complicating matters more is that valve itself is using the old school
func_ladder's in de_prodigy (counter strike source).

I'm sure it's one of those things where they don't think all the new entities are best in all cases...shrug

I think func_ladders work fine. I use them instead of this complex ladder-system :razz:

I wasn't able to get the old school func_ladders to work in my map... they worked fine when I was running my map in CS:S, but not in HL2DM.

It seems like VALVe took it out of HL2 SP and Deathmatch but left it in CSS.

They NEED to add it back because you cannot make climb-able vine walls or cargo nets that are slanted or curved, and you can't strafe while on a useable ladder. It's just crap.

I say we all email VALVe telling them that they have a serious problem with their game.

Anyone managed to fix/avoid the shaking issue?

Nope. I've play many DM maps, and all of them (including my own) have this shaking issue.

Until someone brilliant comes along and saves the day, we're stuck with transient Parkinson's when ladders are climbed.

Yup. I hope there is a mod that gets this to work. Either that or gives
us func-ladders back. How the hell else am I supposed to put in
climbable ledges for f**ks sake?

Ermm, can't u just make a brush with the "ladder" texture? This means you don't have to have any func_ladders. All you have to do is add a brush where you want to want to be a ladder, and give it a ladder texture. This will make it climbable. You can put it anywhere you want, withot a ladder model! Also, I haven't noticed any dodgey shaking with this, or dosen't this method work with hl2dm? Just a thought.

You can only do that with CS SOURCE

---

Life is like a box of chocolates u never know what you'll get you might get a.....scream.

Also note that this thread ended in January :biggrin:

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[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

it's a shame that a guy who said he had code to fix issues like this got flamed away from the forums for pimpaging

---

i eat paint

Though it is worth noting that such code would be useful for a mod, but
isn't exactly much use for a level designer. What happened was a shame
I agree, but the outcome of the issue was as much his fault as anybody
elses.

---

[img]http://card.mygamercard.net/sig/Default/reno84.png[/img]
Designer @ Haiku Interactive | ReNo-vation.net

Yay verily he said unto thee.

Well, that's my momma!

Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

In the hl2dm maps (lockdown to be specific), I've
noticed that valve has put a "player clip" brush surrounding the
ladder, so the player won't bump up against the rungs of the ladder -
that might cause the jittering that you speak of. If not, well...I
guess I tried and my mom tells me thats whats important.

fishy said:
it's a shame that a guy who said he had code to fix issues like this got flamed away from the forums for pimpaging

Besides what Duncan says above, I would like to add that we only have his word for this. Judging from his attitude, I feel it was, or would have been much to high a price to pay for the info.

I personally would have had him over an open flame every time he opened his mouth.. With no regret for doing so at all I might add.

He ripped Doc a new asshole just because he felt like it. I will not stand for such as long as I am around. :/

Snarkpit can afford to lose people of his caliber.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

ok, the shaking issue......it stems from having your upper and lower path boxes directly verticle of each other.....as you are standing looking at your newly done ladder setup, with the ladder directly in front of you, move your bottom bounding box 1 unit back......just to take it out of true exact verticle.........

theres one line somewhere in the hammer tuts that adresses this, and thats the omly one ive seen.....please correct me if there are more....

Doc B... :dodgy:

I have heard that if you do not set the exit path for any ladders they will bork on you causing you to hang on them when trying to dismount.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

yes.....you must tie your entrances and dismounts to the ladder....

:heee:

Doc B.... :dodgy: