To cheat, or not to cheat, now thats a great question.

Well, since we now have our own snarkpit server i think its high time we discuss etiquette.

my three concerns right now are.

1) what do you think is cheating?
2) what should we do when/if we decide its cheating?
3) when typing (facing a wall) should you be allowed to frag them?

please post new concerns, or feel free to address mine.

1) someone on at least 2 occasions was placing trip mines on the spawn points. it is my humble opinion that this is cheating.
2) they should be banned for #1
3) no, if you are facing a wall you are OFF LIMITS.. breaking this rule see #2.

PLEASE DISCUSS.

In your examples, I do not feel #1 is cheating, however I do feel it is
very cheap/lame. Now would I ban someone for it, no, however I
would warn them first and ask them to stop. If they continued,
I'd first do a kick, and if they do come back and continue, be sure to
ask them to stop or they'll be banned.

as for #3, I think you're fair game, you can wait untill you die to
chat, or just use a microphone. And you're talking about banning
because someone kills a chatty bitch, you're crazy. If you want
to be chatty in game, that's your thing, but if you die, no need to
whine about it.

Agree with /\ although putting mines of spawn points was one of my ideas before it was released and look how far it's gone now :smile:

well, i would like more input than just your opinions of my opinions.

the point is, "what do you consider cheating?"

i can see how some would disagree with my sentiments, but be real, there is such things as cheating and i wanna know how you feel.

"one of your ideas" - hate to break it to you habboi, but it's
been a dirty trick for years, even since HLDM and other games you could
pipe/tripmine etc :razz: (as policed by Severians mod)

There's no good way of policing it, even with the admin mod i'll be
installing - if you catch repeat offenders, start recording a demo and
send it to me with a copy of their Steam ID/Name and i'll ban them if
theyre seen to be doing it a lot.

#3 is unpoliceable too, and I kill people who are typing, usually
accidentally too, just because I frag anyone I spot, or try to at
least. When we were on morbid yesterday Orph, I went for a "static"
player on several occasions because he seemed to be AFK, but as you got
close for a humiliating stun stick kill he dropped the act and turned
his gun on you. That's truly lame!

Cheating for me is using exploits (eg using a known bug to your
advantage) or actually installing cheats - wallhacks, aimbots, health
hacks etc. Everything else can be viewed as just untoward tactics.
Usually the people who the lame things like spawn mine are pretty crap
at wielding other weapons and never win anyway, so it's not too much of
an issue.

To be honest, I do remember the good old days of using proximity mines
on "Facility" on Goldeneye, where my friends and I would almost
religiously place mines in the air vent. Bad luck if you then spawned
in the air vent, but damned funny.

Having said that, that's a light hearted game with your mates sitting
in the same room. A game with people you don't know over the internet
requires a bit more "thoughtfulness". Cheap tactics like placing large
amounts of trip mines on spawn points just isn't that funny any more.
Once or twice, maybe acceptable. More than that - too far.

Kinda agree with willow about chatting in game. I just tend to hang
back if I want to type in game (on CS Source for example - you can't
really hang back on DM).

As for what should be done about cheaters (as in PROPER cheating -
excessive use of silly tricks and using hacks), immediate banning is
really the only option. I can't really understand why people would want
to cheat - it gets as boring as hell after a while. Sure, it was funny
when a friend of mine used "bind v "sv_gravity 99999999999999"" and
then waited for his brother to jump in the air, and when he added to
this the line "Wipe them out, all of them", but after a while it just
gets dull.

/2 cents

our server was set to forced respawn, so there was no option to "hang back and type"

maybe thats where my prejudiced view hails from..

perhaps you didn't notice, but i do not frag people facing walls.. so if you want a free kill, face a wall and wait for me to run by :/

As for what I consider cheating, obviously using hacks, using exploits
REPEATEDLY, even using dirty tricks after asked numerous times not to I
would consider cheating. And if you're going to deal with
cheaters, then you need to ban them.

If people want to kill while someone is typing, sure it's a cheap kill,
but I don't feel they should be punished for it, easiest way to fix
that would be to turn forcerespawn off.

Errr, forced respawn isn't on... at least not last time I checked, unless
Lep or ReNo has changed the var and I don't think they have.

Fixed "mp_forcerespawn" to "0" so it's on permanently now :smile:

I would say that cheating would be using a 3rd party program to alter gameplay in your favour. I also think that using different skins would be cheating, as they may make you more visible. Any commands/programs that unfairly alter the game is cheating in my opinion.

However, placing mines at spawn points I don't think is "cheating". I think it's cheap, dirty and takes away fun from other players, but does not constitute a ban. Maybe a temporary ban, a kick, or unrestricted insulting until said person stops.

As for the facing the wall issue. You must be fair game. If I run around a corner and see a player, I'm going to unload, I'm not going to hesitate to see where he faces. This could also be exploited, example someone could face a wall, wait until someone rounded the corner, then turn and blast them.

These are my opinions. If whatever is decided "cheating" is used by a player, then a ban, or temporary ban depending on how severe the violation was, should be used.

Define "cheating"?! It's gaining an unfair advantage over others, and nothing you've said constitutes that (whereas French Toast hits the nail on the head).

If people are facing a corner then it's merely etiquette not to kill them, and absurd to think it's "cheating" if you do- they might stop typing the second you run past, and shoot you in the head. If you want to type something, wait until you die first, or use a microphone and speak it.

And placing mines on spawns is a dirty trick, but again is not really cheating. Anyway, they'll just kill themselves when you shoot the mines they're wasting their time placing and spawn into their own trap.

However I must quickly say that I don't do either of these things, and if I see people doing either excessively, well, it just makes me want to kill them more (and if things get over the top, then just gang up with everyone else and pick on them!)

well, seeings as i will never be in danger of taking one of the top slots, how i preform in a frag only harms myself.

you all may think its silly, but i do see it as a form of cheating to shoot someone facing a wall or placing mines on a spawn point. as such you will never see me doing either.

perhaps there is a fine, but distinct line between etiquette, and cheating outright.

call me stupid, but unless i reflexively shoot you, you are safe.

anyways, i wasn't asking to debate my views. i was merely curious to define some terms for the server is all. :razz:

But at the end of the day, it can't be called cheating, but is still unacceptable behaviour in some people's eyes. </lawyer>

teaming up with a buddy to frag, when it isn't teamplay, is cheating. happens often, and is hard to prove without spectator mode to get a demo.

i dunno if i'd consider using a script to load the grav gun with a gren cheating, but that kind of thing i'd say was borderline.

i've never held it against someone for fragging me if i'm stood still to type something. just my bad luck. i always feel as though i've been spawn camped though, if i get fragged as soon as i spawn, even though i know that it's probably not the case.

I hate when ppl crouch so their hitboxes get all screwed up.

I won't shoot a player facing a wall if it's blatantly obvious that they're typing, i.e. I can see their messages that aren't scripts... naturally if they'd shoot me while I was typing, I'd waste no time in dispatching my helpless foe.

I hate when ppl crouch so their hitboxes get all screwed up.

I crouch becuase I think it makes me shoot better.

I think there is a bold line between cheating and exploiting.

you download a cheat, or hack rcon and give your self no clip.

you exploit a player who is typing, or you exploit the spawn points.

Argh! Nading! It's awful, they really need to change it somehow- perhaps by stopping grenades from exploding on player contact (they don't do that normally) or by nerfing the explosive power, as right now they're more painful than machine gun grenades... I would count using weapon scripts such as this as cheating (like with using crazy gauss and long jump combos in HL1) as it's giving you an unfair advantage over other players.

Using crazy gauss and LJ combos didn't need scripts though, and in fact
most of the ones that were scripted were s**t compared to being able to
do things yourself and tweak the power of your jumps based on the
current situation. Scripts like backwards long jumping or shooting mp5
gren's backwards was a different matter of course.

There debate over 'scripting' will never end. As long as the game allows it, there will be people who use every single advantage possible to win. Technically, it is within the scope of the game, to adjust your config file as creatively as possible - because of this, I don't technically see scripting as cheating. That said - I DON'T support or use scripting to make my game better. The most tweaking I do, is setting weapon binds in the config file, and optimizing the graphics for better framerate.

To me, the only thing that constitutes real cheating, is the use of a second party program, to hack the game and manipulate it - speed cheats, wallhacks, etc.

Typekilling, Spawn killing, Spawn mining...etc. Fair game. I don't care if you do it to me, and I won't hesitate to do it to you (well, I don't ever intentionally spawn mine, and I wont typekill if it's a mate, or im in a good mood).

There are some very gray areas with this topic. Here's one example. Just recently, I found out (from reading steampowered forums), that you can spam the gravity gun, and fling objects MUCH faster and harder than normal, just by assigning mwheeldown to lastinv, holding fire and scrolling down repeatedly. This is an exploit of the engine, as much as bunnyhopping was (which I loved). I can't call it cheating, but it is annoying (like the crouch exploit). I will never cry 'cheat', to a player using these tactics - only try my best to beat them without using them myself. Although I must admit, If I see someone trying to use the crouch exploit, and I'm not close enough to crowbar them in the head - I just might use it myself. Call it self defense.

The bottom line is, there is alot of gray area, and the most you can do is either tolerate it and play, or stick with groups that play by your rules. Other than banning for using 'hacks', I don't think server regulation of these actions is easy, or wise.

There are servers out there that will kill, or kick you for 'camping' - if you stay in one spot too long. Honestly, I would rather deal with the annoying people that play dirty, than an annoying server restriction that tries regulate these things.

finger, my fineart nemeiente'...you would be one of the last folks around these parts i would wholey disagree with, but you scratched a nerve.....timing notwithstanding, i think personaly, (lets bear in mind im a bit aged) Any type of deviation due to exploitation of a manufacterers oversite versus a rewriting of the cfg or any other program addressing file which might be involved, would be constituted as cheating.....

..its not what the builder wanted.....at least one with integrity.... :wink:

now...as a learning tool or educational arm.....learning concepts is an excellent educational proponent... :heee:

but dont let the teachers of technique teach the broils of integrity....

btw .....imho, integrity is learned at home, im convinced of this.... :wink:

Doc B..... :dodgy:

And this is why the argument will last as long as the game is flexible enough to support any tweaking.

My comment wasnt really a report on game ethics, more my viewpoint on what is technically 'cheating'. When I play, I play by the rules I feel are fair and ethical. From my perspective; binding a key to switch to a single weapon is allowable, and acceptable. So is setting options in the config file to get better framerate and performance. If others differ with this opinion, I respect that - I understand that there are obviously a group of people who feel that outright hacking is acceptable - otherwise they wouldn't do it. In the end, you draw the line you choose to stand behind, and have every right to disagree with people who draw different lines.

I have played hardcore dm for a few years, with people who feel that making changes to a config file is no problem, whereas 'scripting' is frowned upon, but not outright banned. This is the line I draw.

Now, the ethics of subtle ingame etiquette - whatever; I don't care if I'm spawn mined.

i use a 5 button mouse, i would not consider that cheating per say, but i have more buttons to assign than most.

course, looking at my scores, you wouldn't think i have been fragging off/on for over 7 years. :sad:

My opinion: Anything that can be done within the bounds of the software as designed by the developer is fair game. If I stand still typing I expect to be killed, and will not hesitate to kill others. Likewise, if you put the time and effort into finding out where the spawn points are, go ahead and mine them. Trip mines are pretty useless otherwise. I view protection of spawn points as the mappers job and expect that if it is easy to put mines on them, that was the intent of the mapper.

Cheating includes any third party program, script, or other device that gives you an advantage by altering the basic rules of the game. Glitch exploits are included here because they also alter the intended rules of the game.

Hardware such as special mice do not fall under the category of cheating. They do not alter the nature of the game. Otherwise I could rightly bitch that everyone with a better computer than me was "cheating" by getting better than 20fps.

well, I'm not about to go around the server hollering "cheater" just because someone is doing the things i would not, but... i also would not hang around for long either.

if i noticed friends doing it.. i would prolly just log out and wait till another time. server frag times, are not worth endangering friendships.. especially online friendships, they are so fragile. :/

What exactly is the crouch exploit? I've played CS for a while now and
its now instinct to crouch and shoot, and I often find myself doing it
in HL2DM if the situation is appropriate (eg. running into somebody at
a thin doorway). Is that alone what this "exploit" is, or is the
exploit doing something like quickly toggling between crouching and
standing?

I don't know exactly what is happening with the crouch exploit, but basically - crouching somehow bungles upperbody hitboxes, making your target much smaller. This is easy to combat if you are aware of it - just shoot at the feet. It's a little thing, but enough of an advantage to win a very close battle - Ive had many fights where the other player and I spawned, engaged, and I lost, because he was crouching and I wasnt. We were basically standing there unloading clips into each other .Usually, the person who manages to strafe well and aim for the head wins - not in this case.

People typing out messages might as well carry around a huge magnet to attract incoming bullets. Deathmatch is not a chatroom and never was. If you have something important to say, use a microphone.

Spawn camping is not cheating, it's a valid tactic which requires a degree of skill to execute.

Exploiting bugs has been around since deathmatch was first developed way back in 1993. It's not unfair, since everyone is equally able to do it.

My two cents.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Foxpup</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>People typing out messages might as well carry around a huge magnet to attract incoming bullets. Deathmatch is not a chatroom and never was. If you have something important to say, use a microphone.

Spawn camping is not cheating, it's a valid tactic which requires a degree of skill to execute.

Exploiting bugs has been around since deathmatch was first developed way back in 1993. It's not unfair, since everyone is equally able to do it.

My two cents. </DIV></DIV>

you know what i see when i read comments like this?

"Get a bigger PC and you can run my maps" :sad:

I play, I dont think about how big my hitboxes are or where spawn
points are. Death-match is all about running around and
mindlessly killing people. CS on the other hand, I get to know
the maps know where people hide, etc. But that isn't becuase I
reserch the damn game its becuase I have been playing CS for 5 years
almost.

I think that if some one uses exploits and cheats they are putting too
much winning. In the end its a game and as long as I'm still
having fun I dont care what other people do. In CS i play with
hackers because I am good enough to beat (in some cases) their
hacks. I would never use hacks, even on hackers becuase I
wouldn't want them to use hacks on me.

I'll shoot some one who is standing still in a DM becuase I know that I
would expect the same thing from everyone else. (If I know they
are typing I may look the other way). If some one is using
scripts or cheap tactics I will just try harder to win. If they
make the game not fun, I will leave and do something else.

I do get upset, and I dont always want to leave. I hate
hackers. But in the end its just a game and if some one needs to
win so badly that they will hack/cheat/expliot then I think they should
get their higher score becuase it must mean alot (too much) to them.

I'm not against cheats when you use them in SP (although they ruin the
game). However, mp cheats and hacks are a different matter. I remember
playing CS:S on de_dust2. I didn't even have time to enter the buy menu
when 2 terrorists "beam" out of nowhere in front of me and fill me with
AK47 shells. :sad:

at the end of the day, i play to have fun not to win. winning would be nice, but i am also a realist, and its pretty unlikely to occur... unless its like last night and i frag ONLY nickelplate :biggrin:

seriously though, if someone, or something makes it not fun (by my count, not anyone else's) i will just go away till the unfun thing is no longer present.

hopefully, in a perfect world, i will find a server with people whom think like me.

so far, the pit server has been a blast. literally.