A lot of the lower water areas look more or less the same. There is not much variation in lighting, room shape or size to give people clear landmarks to play by. Perhaps you incorporate in more side details, like insets in the walls covered by grates. Wires and cables, red/green lights, giant fans or even a pile of rubbish or a distinctive poster can help landmark the map.

This is what I'm working on right now. The underwater-secion is the most random part of the map. Only there to get an alternate route between two of the main parts of the map. I'm trying hard to give this part more identity.

EDIT: Actually, I was surprised so few people complaint about this part lacking a thematical purpose (probably because it's too dark to see much anyway?). I almost thought that my time is spent better on other parts of the map, only lighting it up a bit and then moving on. Your post finally forced me to make what I think will turn out as the right decision: Trash the whole underground areas and replace them by something more interesting. The blue-light pillars and water will stay in one form or another because I like it. But I'll try to make this section look like some bar/restaurant/shopping area, a bit more open, with a nice view on some underground skybox-backgrounds. I'm glad I could overcome my fears and re-build the section completely. I can also think of better better connectivity down there as the whole underground part always felt a bit to linear to me.

My only other criticism would be that the layout also suffers from being too "circular". The escape opportunities from firefights tend to be limited to 2 exits at most, and only in a few areas is there z-axis incorporation. So far you have a good level but it needs refining and retuning in terms of gameplay mechanics. A good theme and good standard of construction is let down by an oversight of mechanics.

Thanks for pointing this out. I think I can "feel" the problem but it's hard to point a finger on the parts that need alternate routes ect. I'm a bit blind right now. Maybe you can name a few areas specifically that you think would need more escape opportunities?

I'll have a poke around tomorrow reaper and take some screenshots to
illustrate my ideas better :smile: If you can hang on til then? :wink:

If you can hang on til then? :wink:

I'll try :smile:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Some images in this post have been automatically down-sized, click on them to view the full sized versions:

Here's some of the points I was talking about in my previous post, re - "one path" syndrome.



This shot has been brightened (as have the others). The colour of that
ladder is a sticker for blending in with the concrete. A quick glance
makes it easy to miss. Stick in an emergency light or a recess to make
it more noticeable.

Also, the area with the crossbow and charger could be extended IMO -
another pathway, or perhaps access to ventilation systems, as seen in
the lower levels with the RPG/SLAM. Reward players with 2 Combine balls

• the ones out at the moment are easy to get!

One path syndrome. Such a large area, it is crying out for more escape
routes / entry routes. Adding a door in either location which could
lead either up or down gives opportunity to expand the Z-Axis, and
remove the feeling of a single path experienced in this areas.

Also, while I understand it is an alpha, there is nothing in terms of
detail or architecture to make this area identifiable as a "landmark".



Similar points to the shot above. Behind me is a redundant alcove, in
front of me too! Are these going to be doors or stairs? There's a lot
of recesses or gaps in walls which look like doors that aren't yet.
Adding at least one in the blue pools areas will open up the dynamic so
much more.



Similar points again. See how grey this area feels? There's no girders,
light variation or indeed changes in architecture. Cut some pipes into
those walls, vents, emergency lights, fencing, power boxes. Anything!
It helps us to navigate a level if we have objects serving as
landmarks. Also, it looks nice to have some variation in your brushes :wink:



As above - also a prime culprit for "alcove syndrome". This area
needs doors and variation in the brushwork. The atmosphere is good, but
it's let down by seeming dull in terms of repeated shapes and flow.



And here we have a fine example of what this map really does well. The
large jutted pillar, coupled with the light shaft coming down AND the
big pile of rubbish (nice touch with the falling bottles, BTW :smile: ) makes
us recognise and instantly assess which way to pursue or escape
via. While the right hand side is a little "grey", the rest is
excellent. Using the grating over to the far left along with green
lights is the quick and easy method of adding that landmarking,
variation and detail to the map.

• Improve gameflow, especially in the flooded areas. It is too
  close to being a single track level when two large areas like that are
  sourced by only a handful of doors.</li>
• Break up the architecture - add girders, work with some new
  shapes. Remebering a level by the idea of "the room with the pipes" or
  "ramp room" is classic navigation.
  
  </li>
• Expand the z-axis play. Intergrate more venting and suspended
  walkways. With the extra doors added and layout reformed, there is
  plenty of scope for intergrating 1/2 new areas with a layout consistent
  with the current alpha.</li>

Everything else in this map, I love - the sounds are subtle but there
(perhaps have one big fan somewhere?) The light peeking through and
clever use of HDR add to the subterranean feel massively. With a few
tweaks of layout and polishing of architecture, this is all set to be a
classic. Good stuff man.

(I hope you can understand my scruffy Wacom handwriting :wink: )

I think those tips are great. The concrete textures work very well in the outside areas because of the light and contrast.

The same massive concrete surfaces seem to suffer in the interiors
because the size and lighting style are not enough to give them the
same value.

As Gwill said, you can either spice up the interiors or open up even
more shafts of light into these rooms (like the one in the fifth pic
Gwill posted). Everyone mostly agrees that the map could be a bit
brighter, but I don't know if it would take something away from
the map. The transitition is very nice with HDR.

Since it's a multiplayer map, I think you'll have to go with what's best for the gameflow and not the visuals. :sad:

Speaking of the underground rooms. Something that you could do is using
a lighting color code to make navigation easier. For example, you could
have your blue lights in the alcoves and beneath the pillars, while all
the exits would be lit with a green/othercolor hue. I think things like
that could make learning the map easier.

Wow, thanks Gwil! I will look at those tips very closely to incorporate them as much as I can.

PS: I like the tablet-writing. :biggrin:

This version is outdated. For comments and suggestions see Alpha2a look here!

Check out the map profile for a changelog.

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Why snark works.

It's great to hear that, reaper47. Nice to have an update on this. :smile: Can't wait for an alpha2.

I think boosts in motivation are universal. Over the past few days I got done 75% of the work I needed to do in order to release a beta 2 of dm_residential (shhhh, let's keep this on the down-low). Hooray for productivity!

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-- midkay

Not that it's a big surprise but everything takes longer than I feared. Wheee!

I'm really thinking a lot about layout right now and that doesn't let me focus on eyecandy at all (not. at. all.). So no screenshots any time soon. I'd like, however, to get some ideas about the layout changes.

Especially Gwil's post was a huge help here and I'm trying to incorporate as much of the feedback as I can. Maybe there will be an unofficial release that's not meant to run on any server but is solely there to allow the layout experts to have a dry look at the changes.

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Why snark works.

If anything, please don't change screen 2 (if you already haven't) since the way you managed to set the water up is great. The half-arched hallway in the distance was nicely done, too.

Screenshot 3 has an interesting glow effect -- but I can't get the thought out of my head that the lighting is a bit crummy. The shadows scream "quake 1" in my opinion, and it doesn't look like they're bouncing enough. Too abrubt, and to splotchy -- at least, in my opinion.

The only other suggestion I have is to get some texture variation -- the majority of this map seems to consist of brown/concrete/brick stuff, and that can get incredibly confusing really quick. Apart from the above, good job so far :smile:

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Thanks Ballblue... (ball blue... I always read ballude! :biggrin: )

The upper parts (screen 3) are very basic yet. Very blocky. Also there is a lack of props (light-fixtures) ect. Lighting needs variation. HDR shots look incredibly dark in the shadows in screenshots, even more than in the game, which probably causes some of the extreme Quake 1/pitch black look.

Anti-confusion/landmark/texturing tweaks are on my list and screen two hasn't changed so far. :wink:

__________________________________________________

I carved my way through large blocks that were never meant to be hollow in order to add an additional staircase to the upper level. And I couldn't resist taking a screenshot. :smile: It's nothing but a teaser that wont mean much if anything to people who haven't played the map already but I post it anyway: The catwalk now connects two stairsways that go from the bottom to the very top parts of the map. This is a little outlook:



See anything? Didn't think so. Anyway, now I have at least a screenshot in this chapter :smile:

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Why snark works.

Under kilometer high city? Maybe city builders destroy old building before start build the skycapers.And skycapers weight can crash the old building and city destroys."Sunlight falls in small chasms but mostly stays a glow in the distance"
But maybe builders build walk ways and foliage between skycapers enterances.
But this is good map.

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R?l? se kohta paisteataan...

Neither this map or films like the fifth element (which is a huge inspiration) will win any logic award, I just like the scale and monstrosity of the idea.

But thanks for having a look, anyway! :smile:

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Why snark works.

I think it's a good decision to give the player somewhere else to go from that catwalk. I remember getting to that spot and then thinking "now where?"

Looking forward to the next release.

---

o

We want more!

Mistery++

Me likey.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

You want more? You'll get more!

I've spend a large portion of my Sunday finishing at least basic brushwork and layout for the new underground part. The random water/darkness/blue-light column area has been replaced completely. It should get a run-down shopping/fast-food/xxx area with neon signs and blinking lights. Right now it's only default storefront textures with some colorful lighting. I plan to flood the place with puddles of water like the outside area but it's still dry yet.

Everything still suffers from still-too-darkitis as well as chronical dummy-texturosis. But it's there. So here are a few screens:


A view of the main area with the x-bow. The catwalk now serves as a connection for stairs that lead all the way up. Some changes to lights that make the place hopefully brighter. Brightness balance isn't done yet.


The same place, only that you see less new. I like the POV, though :smile:


A little more purpose and lighting for this originally rather random spot.


Those with good eyes see a little vent in the background. This is the shaft leading to the RPG. You can't get out to the area behind the grate, though, just a visual connection.


alright, the shopping district. Not much to see, except for the (yet again very basic) underground skybox in the background. This I added yesterday and should change heavily before the map leaves the alpha stages. But it's already a nice view.


The nice view. Well, at least it's better than the black brush that was here before :heee:

So... No real magic but the most basic changes are done. If you manage to read anything out of the shots I'm thankful for comments. If not it's OK.

I guess, once I've build the opposite part of the underground with some half-way clean brushwork and got the lighting to acceptable brightness I'll release this as "Alpha 2". I hope to have no more excuses for not working on the finer eyecandy then. That'll be a lot of work :rolleyes:

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Why snark works.

Keep it up, lighting is looking better each time!!

Having played the alpha1 version, my only concern is that this map will
need a lot of players to provide a decent fragfest, since some areas
felt very far away from the others. Maybe it was just an optical effect
and the layout actually works, I can't really tell.

Anyway, if you ever decide to make a SP map based on this setting, I also think It could turn out absolutely stunning.

Here are my thoughts on the screens (I apologize if my thoughts seem a bit repetitive. I've got 2 minutes before class begins, so I have to bash this out rather quick.)

You've definitely got the architecture down, but there doesn't seem to be any trim in many of those concrete indoor areas. I realise that the HL2 materials pack has very little trim, but try to whip up something, since the constant generic-tileless concrete seems a bit used. To some extent, this "building" or structure that the map takes place in looks like something out of star wars, molded purely out of concrete :razz:

That 5th shot, specifically; the brown concrete is just being run into the ground with that cieling! :razz: Also, that center beam would look nice with some kind HL1-styled Silo trim around the tope, and the underside of it, where the blue lights are shining out, could use something other than concrete :razz: (at least, that what it looks like.)

I also noticed that there doesn't seem to be much of anything inside the map, other that archtecture and random metal planks. Pipes? Light fixtures? Seats? Signs of people using the place? What would normally "belong" in this structure?

Last shot: Very pretty, in my opinion. The blinding light on top of the harsh shadows actually looks real nice there :smile:

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Breaking the laws of mapping since 2003 and doing a damn fine job at it

Thanks for the thoughts!

The lack of trim textures is indeed concerning. :/ Many of the textures, especially in the shots here I only used with the idea of replacing them by something better in the future. I'd like to have more metal in here, more trims. And it's always good to have people reminding me because you get used to these dummy textures way too quickly.

Pipes and props should make their way into the level but with the underground section and other parts being constantly rebuild I don't want to fiddle around with all the prop details yet. Also many parts would require custom models which I cannot get done within any sane timeframe.

And Kasperg, thanks, I never though of the map as a singleplayer map :biggrin: I hope with the new layout changes people will instinctively try to get to the top parts and meet on the way. But maybe that's only something I like doing in maps myself... I start to feel like this could be the case. We'll see. It is pretty big. I can't think of much more to better connect the map right now. I'm quite happy with the way it feels in the current state. I'm looking forward to test the next version with some more players and see how it turns out!

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Why snark works.

I developed a little "darkness test" to look at the map in worst condition and compare it to others that I consider bright enough. Well, albeit I added all the extra lamps the thing is still terribly dark. I'll try and fix that.

Otherwise it's finished. If the mapping gods agree I'll release alpha2 next week.

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Why snark works.

I ran through the last alpha version today, and I must say, it's pretty athmospheric. It's too dark, yes, and there were some connectivity problems, but the main shaft area works well to keep the level together.

I'd change the elevator buttons if I were you, though, because they're hard to notice (a green or red glow would be sufficient I think). I'd also add some more ways to get up and down in the vertical shaft area, because the elevator currently is the only way (that I found :razz: ) to get up there. I liked how you placed a grenade in an alcove there bytheway. :smile:

I also found some area's to feel a bit linear, some of the water area's especially. The one with the small bridge wasn't too easy to move around in, too, due to the small canal there.
Oh, and I think that this unaccessible area, the one with the dim green lighting, attracts too much attention, compared to the much darker, but playable, area next to it. Personally I like to make important things brighter, for example to guide the player were to walk or to attract him to important places. You could distract players with lighting too, but I don't think that fits in here very well. :smile:

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the layout changes. This map looks promising. It may not be that super-detailed, but it gets the setting across nicely. Keep it up. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I'd change the elevator buttons if I were you, though, because they're hard to notice (a green or red glow would be sufficient I think).

already done! :smile:

I'd also add some more ways to get up and down in the vertical shaft area, because the elevator currently is the only way (that I found :razz: ) to get up there.

done, too!

I also found some area's to feel a bit linear, some of the water area's especially. The one with the small bridge wasn't too easy to move around in, too, due to the small canal there.

errr... it's pretty much gone and replaced by what should later be replaced by stores and fast-food places. This needs some custom work to look good but the layout changes are done.

Thanks, Captain.

The LOD is rather low, still. That's the reason I prefer calling the next version an alpha, also. It's pretty tedious to work outside the Eastern European city theme with HL2. However, I won't accept this as an excuse to not come up with a bit of custom work and detailing for the next releases.

I'm adding some of the last chunks of brushwork right now. Let's see how much more polishing it will need then for the release.

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Why snark works.

The current build should be the next release. I only need a final compile. Also some HDR/LDR lighting checks are due. But all the architecture and entity work is finished for Alpha 2.

Here are some more screens. :smile:

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Why snark works.

Looks better lit now, me likes. :smile:
The 1st and 4th shot feature some rather empy-looking floors though, which is probably more obvious now that they're better lit. How about some extra grates in there, or some more materials to divide it up somewhat?

I forgot to mention the lack of light sources in the last alpha bytheway. Did you add light fixtures already? I can't see any in these shots.

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

Captain P, you're touching the map's Achilles? heel there. But all together it takes too long. Honestly, I tried spicing up all the parts that I felt absolutely need it but that already took a good part of the past weeks. If I start working on any more details (and if it's just the light fixtures) one thing may lead to the next and I'll be tinkering around with them till February.

I want to release alpha2 today. And the zip file's just uploading :biggrin:

The changes in this version are almost entirely about gameplay.

---

Why snark works.

This post marks the official release for Alpha2. Please post feedback on playing the map from here instead of judging the (slightly outdated) pre-release screenshots.

If you can provide any kind of help regarding a playtest (hosting it on a server, having a run through it with me) please post here also or send me a PM.

If something's missing in the ZIP alert me asap so I can do some damage control.

Have fun! :smile:

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Why snark works.

Ah, ok. I'd reckon that a few light fixtures shouldn't take much more than an hour or so, but spicing up the floors and such, well, I can see why you decide to stop right there. The map in general could do with some more detail but I think keeping it 'lite' on detail works well too. It's just that those surfaces are so large and empty-feeling that it's a bit hard to ignore.
Oh well, HL2 maps easily take too long... I thought my map took long but I just saw another one that took over a year. If you can avoid that, then do it. :smile:

EDIT: I'll run through it once I get home. As for a playtest, I might know someone who's willing to host a few maps. I'll keep you up-to-date on that, as I'm looking for a playtest for Mudanchee soon anyway. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

If you know a host that'd be awesome.

Call me crazy but those light fixtures are a pain to add. Really. Maybe it's something psychological but I feel deep inside it was the right decision to leave them out so far. :biggrin:

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Why snark works.

What's so hard about adding them then? I just want to know. :smile:

Anyway, I just ran through it. Looks better indeed now. The flow is better, more easily, and I like the scenic area's you put in there. Much more athmospheric now. :smile:
The battery charger next to the crossbow didn't work though. I also got a crapload of 'Updating physics on object in hierarchy func_physbox' errors, continually flooding the console. Don't know which object caused that and it doesn't look like it caused anything serious, but still.
Anyway, there's still a few small 'deadends', such as a lit door just below the staircase that leads to the crossbow, that aren't very long or dead-endy, but not very good for fluiding movement and navigation either. Oh, and the elevator buttons are better now (though a bit dim at a distance still) but there's no audio feedback when pressing them. Makes me think I didn't press it correctly every time. :smile:

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

The battery charger? Now that's seriously surprising. It's a simple battery recharger and always worked for me

The elevator is one of many hacks I tried to get it resistant to most physics and rendering-related Source engine problems. I have another hack in the works which probably kills the physbox error (it's a physbox now).

I'll think about the dead-endiness. Probably I can bring some of them down, still, but I actually like side-corridors breaking the 100% straight-forward flow. It could be I overdo that. If it gets really annoying then pls show me screens or a precise description of the spots that really hurt and a tip of how to make them smoother.

Oh, and the elevator buttons are better now (though a bit dim at a distance still) but there's no audio feedback when pressing them. Makes me think I didn't press it correctly every time. :smile:

Little things like that are pure gold to know, thanks.

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Why snark works.

I'll add some thoughts tomorrow hopefully - i'm free of work until next year now, so i'll take the chance to contribute :smile:

Could you check the news post for the map? I submitted it yesterday and it didn't show up :sad:

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Why snark works.

My Internet became a little faster this month so I think I can host a small server from time to time. It should be open evening/night (Europe) but it's not permanent, only an hour here and there. So if you download the map and want have a look go into the steam server list and look for a server called "dm_3006" (like the map). That's me.

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Why snark works.

I didn't see a server by that name. What's your servers IP?

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Create-ivity - a game development blog

I don't have static IP I think. Searching the name must be what works best. I should have it running within the next 10 minutes. See if you can find it. ...

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Why snark works.

I took a walk around alpha2.

Lighting has been greatly improved indeed, and as Captain P mentioned, there are several new cool spots and vistas.

Some of the narrow passages you have opened for the sake of gameflow still need some tweaking but I'm sure you'll get to that.

I know there are less dead ends now, but for me the map doesn't have a
clear set of paths I can choose from. I know there are a lot of ways to
play DM, but I usually do some sort of loop around the whole level. I
find it much more difficult with this map, but that's just a personal
opinion :smile:

The top floor (with the metal columns) still feels too big and
undefined. Could you transform it into some sort of office or
conference area? some textures and props would be enough, I think.

The city image below the map is a cool addition and enhances the
feeling of "huge" you get with this map. However, the light doesn't
match with the level's light_enviroment. Maybe you could replace it
with some satellite image of an industrial city (if the city is lit
because it is completely underground, forget this comment).

I had some visual issues while looking up at this spot >> http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5267/3006aja9.jpg

As you can see, there's a part of building that dissapears. Those walls
might also need some vent shafts like the ones you have further down
that area.

The electrical utility pole you have in the main area doesn't belong in
such a city, but you can keep it there if you want to :biggrin: Visually
it works.

The following is just a suggestion you can ignore if you wish to. As an
architecture student, the stairs you make look weird to me. I mean the ones
where you can see the steps underneath. If your stairs are made with
concrete structures, the steps would be built on top of a structure
such as this one [url]http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/9981/3006bei3.jpg [/url] You could
also change them to a metal structure in which the steps would be
thinner etc.

Anyway, not many people will worry about such things! :wink:

Great map so far. I have to say it again: It would be so cool watching combine troops rappeling down those shafts... :smile:

I like architectural details like this a lot. Very cool to know. I'll change the stairs.

The other things are helpful, too. Thanks, Kasperg!

Keep it coming!

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Why snark works.

For me, what stuck out the most was all of the trusses crossing from wall to wall. Such as the one at the top of your last pic. They look wired and stick out like a sore thumb. To me at least. I don't know if your trying to save system resources but if you turn them into a hollow box and texture all 8 sides, they look 10 times better. see what i mean.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/8520/trusspe0.jpg
I walked through it today and it looked good. It needs some tweaking but the hdr gives a nice effect. I'd like to see how it plays. should be interesting.

I blame it on the map being still an alpha... but the argument's running old. Should be replaced within the next versions.

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Why snark works.

I was also going to say the trusses looked weird in some of the places
you have put them (I remember there were two of them very close
together somewhere).

Since they don't really have any architectural function, you could
place some sort of signs in them or make them serve as a structure for
guiding cables etc.

Cables sounds good. I was going to add some anyway as they are supposed to hold some spotlights later.

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Why snark works.

I just wanted to thank you for all the feedback. It helped me to get alpha 3 done way faster than I could have hoped. In fact a new version is compiled and finished, I hope to release it tomorrow or Friday! And it's looking more and more like a beta :smile:

Some light fixtures+spotlight effects are in (still not many). I re-textured some parts, also adding $nocull shaders for transparent metal-textures. Then there's another way up, a ventilator shaft that leads to the upper area (one of the many ideas resulting from having a quick run through the map with Gwil). Some fixes here, some tweaks there.

I hope to get the release out some time before a possible playtest on Friday :wink: Let's see.

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Why snark works.

Im not such a big HL2 player but so far what ive seen the map looks great! I can see you are trying very hard!

PS: I pmed u about some download hosting for the map.

Thanks to all your feedback I was able to finish the next update quickly. So here it is: Alpha2a.

Changes include a new vent that leads to the upper parts, some prop and texture detailing as well as small layout tweaks. I'll upload some pictures soon, so far only the 3 profile pics.

Changes include:

• many minor texture and geometry changes
• fixed: elevator should work much better now
• fixed: suitcharger works again
• added: ventshaft to the upper area
• added: some small changes to the upper parts for easier movement
• added: a few props and light fixtures (a lot to be done, still)
• added: nocull shaders for transparent metal textures

Have fun and happy holidays! :smile:

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Why snark works.

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Why snark works.

In the image you just posted, bottom right corner. That's one of the places where I had seen two trusses too close together :wink:

I took a look around a couple of days ago. Nice to see some light fixtures, and the stairs look much more realistic now, hehe

I'm glad you like the stairs. :biggrin:

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Why snark works.

<Well, I Well, I think you nailed it!! Excellent changes in lighting and connectivity between floors. The map is up on my server and have received many compliments!! Excellent sniping and close quarter action!

One issue is that the HEV machine does not seem to work. We look forward to your next map!!

ooh thats a nice screenshot right there. nice work man

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These words are my diaries screaming out loud