Munich

The 1984 book, Vengeance: the True Story of an Israeli Counter-Terrorist Team, purports to tell the story of the hit squad, as narrated to Canadian journalist George Jonas by a former self-described Mossad agent, Juval Aviv, who says he was the leader of the squad. Aviv's account of the operation has not been independently verified. In December 2005, Steven Spielberg released a movie called

Munich , based on Vengeance, whose main character, Avner, played by Eric Bana, is based on Aviv, and which carries the opening title card "inspired by actual events."

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If anyone of you know about the event or watched the movie, I want to know what you think. Were the Israelis justified to exact revenge on the terrorists? I certainly support the notion of standing for yourself and fight back if necessary.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

"An Eye for an Eye" is what the Bible says (I think). I saw Munich 2
nights ago. 7/10. It is a good movie that doesn't take sides. But
anyway, I wouldn't ever justify killing, as the revenge is just about
as bad as the first people who did it in the first place. The First
killers of the 1972 Olympic team probably killed them in some sort of a
revenge, in a deranged way.

also, the movie is supposedly not all that accurate, but most movies
arent....which is why they are called MOVIES and not
DOCUMENTORIES....anyway, good movie.

Wow, you're a tough critic. A good movie only deserves a 7/10 rating.

I would give it 9/10.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

I know what happened, but I haven't seen the movie.

I think killing is bad. All the time it's just bad.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

I think killing is good. I am happy that some farmer killed some chicken somewhere so that I could eat my Subway sandwich for lunch today. I am glad that my body is able to kill the viruses that get inside it. And I also agree with the way Bruce Willis killed Alan Rickman at the end of Die Hard.

Die Hard --- 8.6/10

killing --- 9.3/10

Alright, smart alek!

You know i mean killing of people. lol

We cannot survive without killing SOMETHING, be it plant or animal. We can't survive on minerals alone! So, yeah I am thankful today for the cows in my hamburger and beef Lo Mein, the apples in my apples, the grapefruits in my grapefruit, and the carrots taht gave thier life so that I could have carrots today.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Alright, smart alek!
You know i mean killing of people. lol
We cannot survive without killing SOMETHING, be it plant or animal. We can't survive on minerals alone! So, yeah I am thankful today for the cows in my hamburger and beef Lo Mein, the apples in my apples, the grapefruits in my grapefruit, and the carrots taht gave thier life so that I could have carrots today.

Nice try, but killing people is something completely different than pulling a carrot out of the ground.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

I'm also thankful for this lovely human brain I am eating as of now...

/makes hanibal sucking sound

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-[Better to be Honest than Kind]-

Do you like fava beans with your brain?

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

No, goofball. You eat Fava beans with human LIVER and a nice Chianti... duh.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

You lucky American bastards already have the opportunity to watch "Munich". Release date for belgium is set on the 26th of january.

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:: Forceflow.be :: Nuclear Dawn developer

It's only in limited release actually. So only "big" cities get a copy. I forget how the limited release works ... does the film cost more or something? Juim, have any insights?

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Blame it on Microsoft, God does.

Nickelplate said:
I think killing is bad. All the time it's just bad.

Have not seen the movie so I have no opinion on it, I do however see several reasons where killing is not only justified, but essential.
Practically speaking, one cannot live without doing so, but thats not exactly what I meant either.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

You don't have to kill other PEOPLE to be able to live. Yeah, you have to kill animals and plants, but THAT's okay.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

Nickelplate said:
You don't have to kill other PEOPLE to be able to live.

Not to be able no, but there are many who deserve it none the less.

Now is prolly not the best time to discuss it since I am so tired, but my views on capitol punishment are pretty rigid. Not to mention personal vendettas that need resolved.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Killing people: Bad!

If you really hate someone enough to kill them, lock 'em up in a prison for life. It's worse.

Orpheus said:
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>You don't have to kill other PEOPLE to be able to live.

Not to be able no, but there are many who deserve it none the less.

Now is prolly not the best time to discuss it since I am so tired, but my views on capitol punishment are pretty rigid. Not to mention personal vendettas that need resolved.</div></div>

"Many who live deserve death, but many who are dead deserve life: can you give it to them?"
I think until you can give life to those who are dead, you shouldn't take life from those who are alive.

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

French Toast said:
Killing people: Bad!

If you really hate someone enough to kill them, lock 'em up in a prison for life. It's worse.

For who? The asswipes who hand out rights to every Tom,Dick and Harry have made prison a shadow of what it once was. I agree that not every offense is death worthy, but those that there is NO DOUBT at all should be gone. I do not want one once of my tax dollars supporting them. I would sooner give my money to a church, and thats a concept I absolutely despise.

Anyway, there are some who deserve it. No amount of mushy mouthing it away will alter that.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>・quoting Orpheus</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>
<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>・quoting French Toast</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Killing people: Bad!

If you really hate someone enough to kill them, lock 'em up in a prison for life. It's worse.
</DIV></DIV>

For who? The asswipes who hand out rights to every Tom,Dick and Harry have made prison a shadow of what it once was. I agree that not every offense is death worthy, but those that there is NO DOUBT at all should be gone. I do not want one once of my tax dollars supporting them. I would sooner give my money to a church, and thats a concept I absolutely despise.

Anyway, there are some who deserve it. No amount of mushy mouthing it away will alter that.

</DIV></DIV>

Good to "see" you!

And now to disagree... :smile:
it is my understanding that it actually costs less to support a criminal for their whole life in prison than it does to go through the process of obtaining the death penalty... I don't know where I heard that, and I've no idea if it's true, but it seems like a point that is worth looking into. In general, I'm not in favor of the death penalty for one simple reason: what if you make a mistake? s**t happens, and sometimes innocent people get convicted. Death is such a... permanent punishment. If at some point down the road it is proved you didn't do it, they can't exactly release you!

/edit

Now that I've read the rest of the thread... I'd say the revenge, whatever form it takes, is always bad whether there is death involved or not. The question is, how do you separate revenge from justice when they are so often intimately intertwined? in general, justice is done by an impartial third party, but that can be kind of hard to find in international relations.

if jailing someone is worse than killing them, and in many respects i believe it is, then why isn't there the same demand for an equal level of rock hard and completely undisputable proof before someone gets locked up, as there seems to be for execution?

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i eat paint

Gods beware. If I knew that me posting would have pulled you out of retirement Obie, I might have considered returning months ago.

I am kinda thinking along the same lines as Fish, at least at this point in the discussion. I have always wondered why people see things differently between locking them up as opposed to killing them outright.

I dunno. I am still to tired to be as coherent as I would wish. :sad:

Anyway, Fish makes a good point.

I do however see your point too Obie. I believe the cost however is inflated due to the processes involved and not the actual proving. I mean, we are talking about the same sort of people who pay 50 bucks for a hammer for Christ sakes.

The "Process of obtaining" is only costly because the powers that be want it to be so. If it were cheaper then we would be back to the "Judge Roy Beans" now wouldn't we? I mean seriously, if it was any cheaper the death penalty would be much more commonplace than it currently is.

I do not really want it to increase, just to be more accurate whenever it is used.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

time to start some s**t here....

revenge in wartime.....good for the soul
revenge can be usefull, when applied correctly
murder....we'll assume we all think its wrong
death penalty....when needed

ok. i submit that you compare this countries crimerates to others, with and without the death penalty, and you should note two thing straight away....the US goes to greater lengths than any other to provide all opportunities to produce innocence after conviction in capital cases.the amount of people we commit to death is sparse comparably, and the justice is as true as its ever been anywhere in the world. nobody bats a thousand, but we have a helluva lot better batting avereage than most.

in my youth, an eye for an eye would have been my stock and trade....as i grow older, and see the associated bulls**t grow exponentially ahead of the crimes, more and more "innocent" folks get off, and the general breakdown of the system due to slick f**kers with no real moral compass, i think the death penalty could actually be enforced a bit more ridgedly, and streamlined....

herd em thru like cattle....you murder, yer convicted, you die. end of story.

**dons baseball catchers mask and chest protector, and awaits the onslaught.

Doc Brasso... :dodgy:

as for the movie, i havent seen it yet. but i was in frankfurt, germany when this all went on. and i remember it like it was yesterday. they will have to do well to impress me, no pompousity intended.

I agree with you Doc on all save this part:

the US goes to greater lengths than any other to provide all opportunities to produce innocence after conviction in capital cases

I have never seen, nor read any comparative analysis on this statement. Nor have I heard that we are anywhere near the top in reliability.

I have heard some pretty evil rumors about Texas however so the comment is at least prideful in nature. I can understand pride. :smile:

I do believe the judicial system is fundamentally flawed. When drug user women can retain custody of their children just because they have a vagina, something is wrong. AND, thats a relatively minor example!!

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The best things in life, aren't things.

well, to be honest there big jon, i wasnt actually looking at a comparative analysis as i wrote my comments....just going from experience....a couple of quick examples....

middle east....steal something lose a hand....steal again, lose the other....go for a third, lose yer life.....at least it used to be just that way.

japan....we were docked in sasabo...a crewmember got busted with a gram of hash, by the japanese police, and he was still in the can when i got out 3 1/2 years later.

phillipines 1978....the poor starving orphaned kids used to sometimes stick together in gangs, so-to-speak. im on shore leave in olongapo city, with a bunch of my buddies. one of these "gangs" came upon 3 marines also on leave walking down magsaisai blvd, the main drag in the bar district. on of the kids gets their attention, and all start poking the marines incessantly to the point where they dont know where to cover or what is going on....while they are "protecting" themselves, at least three of these kids are snatching the wallets, watxhes, etc, whatevever they can snap up. and they split, full sprint down the street. the marines start yelling, and amidst the crowd, a phillipine cop, steps out in the street, turns, draws a bead on one of the kids, and drops him like a hot rock from about a hundred yards....center mass, heart shot...walks to him rolls him over, takes a wallet etc from the kid, gives it to the marines, and moves on. i couldnt believe what i just saw. niether could the marines. everyone was freakin' the f**k out....

the kid was 12 years old.

just a few to give visual. im old, ive seen alot of s**t.

but, you make a good point, when a person gives a statement as "factual", ya better be able to back it up. jon, i know you know what im talking about, as from what i can tell, you are the only other "old fart" in here these days... :heee:

the point is, we work to make sure we dont have the wrong guy....the instances are rare, no matter what the liberal whiney f**kers will have you believe....do the research folks, the facts are there for all to see....

to be continued....

Doc B... :dodgy:

Your example are admittedly harsh, but clearly only examples of harsh after the sentence is commuted. (I think thats the word I want)

Your previous comments centered on the before stage of the process. The two are interconnected to be sure but still separate entities.

I believe that harsh can work to stem the flow of lawlessness, but only when handled properly. IE, if it is proved beyond all doubt that someone murdered someone else, then the only recourse is capitol punishment. The only reason capitol punishment doesn't truly work as a deterrent is because the process of proving is weak. Some innocents get the death sentence and some guilty go free. People see this, people KNOW it and people disregard it as a deterrent.

Again, your examples between the two postings do not necessarily belong together as proof that our system goes the full 9 yards in every attempt at proving guilt or innocence. THAT was my only point. I wasn't saying you were erroneous in your replies.

And, I sure as hell hope we get some more old farts soon as I am about tired of being in the minority around here.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Well, here in tame Canada there's no death penalty, so I do'nt need to worry much :smile:

agreed jon, i suppose im not really making the case very well....im not qualified to site case laws or precedents, but as "old farts" go, im pretty damn qualified... :heee:

i guess a synopsis of what im trying to convey would be basicly, pound for pound, we do better than most(i really cant think of a system thats better) in going the extra mile......s**t....deathrow inmates sitting for 23 years waiting is absof**kinglutely ridiculous...the system is flawed yes.....but as i said, its still the best ive ever encountered.

i reiterate....

the point is, we work to make sure we dont have the wrong guy....the instances are rare, no matter what the liberal whiney f**kers will have you believe....do the research folks, the facts are there for all to see....

? posted by French Toast

<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: red 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: red 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: red 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: red 1px solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #151515">Well, here in tame Canada there's no death penalty, so I do'nt need to worry much :smile:
</DIV>
toasty, to me, that would be a good example of what NOT to do....

Doc B... :dodgy:

***repositions catchers mask

Dr Brasso said:
? posted by French Toast

<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: red 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: red 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: red 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: red 1px solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #151515">Well, here in tame Canada there's no death penalty, so I do'nt need to worry much :smile:
</DIV>
toasty, to me, that would be a good example of what NOT to do....

Doc B... :dodgy:

Agreed.

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The best things in life, aren't things.

Silly americans, there's no crime in Canada. :smile:

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting French Toast</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>Silly americans, there's no crime in Canada. :smile:
</DIV></DIV>

Tells me that there is either no reason for criminals to be there or the word hasn't gotten out yet that you all are so ready for them to arrive.

Perhaps I should begin a campaign to inform them that Canada is the place to be and perhaps thin our criminal element down a bit.

Personally, I am leaning toward the former. What, if anything is there up there to entice a criminal?

You will never convince me in a million years that Canada has no crime because THEY are doing something right to prevent it. :rolleyes:

ONLY law abiding citizens obey the law!!!

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The best things in life, aren't things.

it is my understanding that it actually costs less to support a criminal for their whole life in prison than it does to go through the process of obtaining the death penalty...

I've heard the same. My brother thinks it's true too, and he's a lawyer.

Now, bringing the discussion to a more frivilous level, I thought several scenes of "Munich" look disconcertingly similar to rounds of Counter-Strike. My perspective of reality is quite distorted--real-life events start to look like the game, instead of the other way around. :smile:

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

satch...yer starting to worry me bud.....

does yer wife sleep with a can of mace yet??.... :heee:

Doc B... :dodgy:

No. No mace.

Just a loaded Deagle under the pillow. :wink:

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

The next "stage" would be seeing people in work over-alls running
around chaotically and occasionally getting stuck behind
boxes or in corners.

I see that all the time. :heee:

roflmao @ andrei

Doc B... :dodgy:

I am not seeing things yet.

But everytime I turn a corner at work, I jump up to avoid getting a headshot. I know people stare, but at least I have total pwnage.

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"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return." -- Toulouse-Lautre, Moulin Rouge

"out of retirement" is probably a bit strong. I'm around some, but I'm uber busy with school (yes, again, for five more years!!). I just post when I see a person/topic that piques my interest.

I think getting raped in the bum with a broom handle every day is worse than death...

that's just me, though...

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I tried sniffing coke, but the ice cubes kept getting stuck in my nose.
http://www.dimebowl.com

<DIV class=quote>
<DIV class=quotetitle>? quoting Nickelplate</DIV>
<DIV class=quotetext>I think getting raped in the bum with a broom handle every day is worse than death...

that's just me, though...

</DIV></DIV>

You know what though? Most of the creaps doing the f**king are the same assholes we are discussing Nickel. Ever consider that? Maybe they like buttpokin. Somehow I find it difficult to believe that every murderer is being butt jacked. :rolleyes:
And, Tracer, it is nice to see you, just in case someone forgot to mention that before. :smile:

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The best things in life, aren't things.