Natural Selection

So there's this mapper that would like to start making NS maps because it seems to be the rage theses days. Anybody have suggestions for him? :cool:

He should stop posing hypothetical questions?

Seriously though, its not a mod I'm very familiar with, but I suggest you break from the norm of NS and use different texture sets. I'm rather fed up of seeing hundreds of admittedly great looking maps, but not having a hope in hell of being able to distinguish between them.

well not having played the game, nor can I at the moment.. Where can I get the .FDG? Also, from what I understand its sort of like AVP (Aliens vs Predators) Are there certain mapping restrictions or textures or anything like that?

NS maps are usually a lot bigger than normal HL maps ... keep that in mind.

ReNo said:
He should stop posing hypothetical questions?

Seriously though, its not a mod I'm very familiar with, but I suggest you break from the norm of NS and use different texture sets. I'm rather fed up of seeing hundreds of admittedly great looking maps, but not having a hope in hell of being able to distinguish between them.

Agreed. You get the "wall_lab" whores. My map admittadly had alot of influence from ns_nothing and one hallway looks almost identical (its a basic 4brush corridor flat wall + floor), but NS is extremely hard to map correctly and to get any sort of satisfaction from. If your map sucks, and I mean really is bad people will comment on it, and because of how long it will take to make a decent first beta (took me 4 months) you will end up giving up before you started. Get something under your belt, even if you dont release it. Look at other maps for inspiration, and as Reno said, try new texture sets, styles and mixing of textures.

The NS texture sets are among the most powerful and flexible I have ever seen or used. Cory did an excellent job with them, especially in the new ns2.wad.

I have to strongly disagree with the preceding comments on textures. No matter what there will be generic cookie cutter maps, but the NS textures are so flexible that a good and creative mapper can do wonders with them. And, quite frankly, most custom textures I've seen in NS maps suck. There are exceptions, but breaking from the 'norm' just for its own sake is no good reason to not make use of the fantastic artwork available.

In fact, the "overused textures" bit has just become a blanket criticism of NS, such to the point that I have been criticized for my over-use of the "overused" wall_lab texture set in Eclipse - when half the people out there still call that texture set the Eclipse set because it was my map that established them as being that used in the first place.

The NS texture sets help create the idea of a consistent and believable universe, which I think is one of the strongest points (visually) of the mod. You know it's an NS map. It's not just a cluster of maps, it's an entire universe being created.

Im thinking I might change and make Dark Complex 2 for NS. It's got the abandoned look to it. It's dark (doh :biggrin: ) and its kinda freeky already (just looking at it in VHE).

I've put in lots of time developping new cliffs and stairs and mapping in 45 degree angles instead of just 90 degrees like most maps do. And textures areant a problem, I have about 60 .WAD files loaded at the moment. Takes about 10 minutes trying to find a good wall texture... to much selection :razz: .

If anybody could give me some help and links to textures and FDG I'd like to give it a shot.

An NS map is a lot of work. Be prepared to start and go through to the end. Start with a layout first, then work from there up, gradually adding detail. And you will most likely have to fight the various limits to get your map to compile.

I tried making one a while ago - didn't really work out.

Umm well right now I only have 1 section done, and I'm not really adding anything else right now. As I've said, I spent a s**tload of time working cliffs, stairs, diagonal rooms and caves of such.

But I need to know a few things:
[list]
[*] What is the goal of the map (like hostage rescue, plant the bomb.. etc.)
[*] Do players play as marines or aliens or both
[*] Are there weapons or items for the players to pick up in the game?
[*] Where can I download the textures and the .FDG

This is kind of sad...You dont map for a MOD because its what everyone is doing Wildcard..You map for a MOD because you actually play, and like that MOD. Sure, lot's of people want to be a bit famous for the maps they made and such, but thats not the point of creating worlds.

Creating worlds is for you to express your imgination and talents into something visual and exciting...You dont create worlds just because other people do it a lot.

Good luck NS mapping!

The textures and fgd are in the mod download. If you aren't gonna download the mod, I don't see why you're bothering to spend time mapping for it. There's a custom hullflile that comes with it that you need to use too.

As for goals of the game, ammo and that kinda jazz, I have three words - Play the mod. Seriously, it's not the kind of thing that any of us could tell you in a succinct forum post. It plays more like Starcraft than HLDM, and there are some serious balancing issues you can only get a feel for if you've played it.

This is silly, you cant map for NS without even having played it. No map can be converted to NS.

I'm sorry but i have to agree with what azelito said. NS is so unlike other mods and to make a good well balanced map and to understand what's going on your going to have to have played it because it's just not cut and dry.

Apart from that if you really wish to carry on anyway i suggest you read this: http://www.natural-selection.org/Mapping_Guidelines.html to at least get an idea of what is going on. Infact just check out this post on the forums http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=100&s=69969ba486144cd4b75645ecb18efbcf as it's very good and has a lot of important info in there. Good luck.

KungFuSquirrel said:
The NS texture sets are among the most powerful and flexible I have ever seen or used. Cory did an excellent job with them, especially in the new ns2.wad.

yes he did....the guy is to be highly commended for his work....id shake his hand and buy him a beer if i could...:hee:

I have to strongly disagree with the preceding comments on textures. No matter what there will be generic cookie cutter maps, but the NS textures are so flexible that a good and creative mapper can do wonders with them.

i agree with this part of the comments you made wholeheartedly andrew.....well said...

? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=KungFuSquirrel"">KungFuSquirrel</a>

And, quite frankly, most custom textures I've seen in NS maps suck.

that part ....well, i'd be really curious to hear what you think of my textures for this mod then, because, quite frankly, i got sick of the regular ones...dont know what that says for me, just my two cents... :/

? posted by <a href=""http://www.snarkpit.com/users.php?name=KungFuSquirrel"">KungFuSquirrel</a>

In fact, the "overused textures" bit has just become a blanket criticism of NS, such to the point that I have been criticized for my over-use of the "overused" wall_lab texture set in Eclipse - when half the people out there still call that texture set the Eclipse set because it was my map that established them as being that used in the first place.

[color=limegreen].....which is exactly why i decided to do my own textures.....breaking away from the "identified as" textures is a way to try and set myself apart....as im sure others have done.....you can definately tell a KFS map from the others.....[/color]

WC, im here to tell ya, NS mapping is a world unto itself, no pun intended.....yer gonna pull yer hair out, and youll learn alot if you let yourself....but be forewarned...it aint easy by any means....and the folks that DO map for it regularly are the harshest critics ive run across in the HL community.....grow a thick skin, do your best, research everything as best you can, and post yer stuff wearing a catchers mask and chest protector... :heee: ....give em hell bud....w00t!

......and download and play and learn the f**king mod....there is no better way to get the play perspective....guaranteed.... :wink: [color=limegreen]

[/color]
Doc Brass... :dodgy:

ps....andrew, i singled out your comments because you just happen to be one of the most respected mappers i know of, let alone for NS....no offense is intended in any way.... :wink:

I'm doing my own custum textures as well, of course when i say my own i mean haxed up shaderlab pieces of crap but i'm just doing that because i don't want this map to be the norm.

Also the fact that pretty much the only levels i play (with a few exceptions: tanith and nothing) because the IMO the rest are either butt ugly or play terribly use the wall lab set was a big factor in me wanting a totally different feel for my map and therefore making/editing my own textures.

ps....andrew, i singled out your comments because you just happen to be one of the most respected mappers i know of, let alone for NS....no offense is intended in any way.... :wink:

Oh, none taken :smile: I can't recall off-hand what your map looks like, but from what I've seen your texture-making is in pretty good form. I wouldn't be worried about that. :smile: There are some maps that are absolutely hideous, though, and generally speaking I haven't been too impressed with what custom texture maps I have seen from NS - some, like Space Ape's neverending story, turn out fantastic, but a lot of people just turn to HFX or Evil textures which are ok, but really among the worst textures I've seen when converted to HL. HL's renderer does handle plenty of textures well, but for some reason those sets have always bugged me in HL form and nowhere else. shrug

KungFuSquirrel said:
The NS texture sets are among the most powerful and flexible I have ever seen or used. Cory did an excellent job with them, especially in the new ns2.wad.

I have to strongly disagree with the preceding comments on textures. No matter what there will be generic cookie cutter maps, but the NS textures are so flexible that a good and creative mapper can do wonders with them. And, quite frankly, most custom textures I've seen in NS maps suck. There are exceptions, but breaking from the 'norm' just for its own sake is no good reason to not make use of the fantastic artwork available.

In fact, the "overused textures" bit has just become a blanket criticism of NS, such to the point that I have been criticized for my over-use of the "overused" wall_lab texture set in Eclipse - when half the people out there still call that texture set the Eclipse set because it was my map that established them as being that used in the first place.

The NS texture sets help create the idea of a consistent and believable universe, which I think is one of the strongest points (visually) of the mod. You know it's an NS map. It's not just a cluster of maps, it's an entire universe being created.

I'd have to disagree with that myself. Sure, works of peerless beauty have been and still are being made with the NS texture sets, but there is no official map, and very few custom ones (to my limited knowledge, at least) that seriously departs from the mod's general level design theme, in terms of layout, texturing, and (mostly) gameplay. I think I saw a Mario World NS map once, and the NS mapping scene had become so inspirationally stagnant at the time that it was actually taken seriously, when it was a project of little more reputability than any fy_iceworld clone.

The NS textures themselves provide both the soul and the cage of the mod's originality... on one hand, they are absolutely revolutionary in terms of quality and popularity (they make a map good looking by themselves unless the map is truly horrible *side glance to ns_nancy) but on the other hand, nobody wants to use anything else; thus 90% of all NS map released, for all their complex layoutage and pretty textures and lighting, are little more than the mapper's own spin on the NS theme (though you shouldn't mistake my words, Andrew, you yourself are a pillar of that style).

I would add that I know precious little about the mod, but everything I have seen/heard/played of it points right to this.

problem is, Not many textures work well WITH the ns texture set, Because they are made in such a way. E.G lots of black etc.

Ive given MrB some textures for his ns map, I hope they work out ok but chances are they might not.

more so than textures use in importance is , goal/objectives.

ns maps are not like DM maps, so attempting to make one without playing the mod is moot.

anything further is a waste of everyones time, you cannot convert a map to ns, you have to design it from the ground up (no pun intended as a design from the ceiling down would work just as well :wink: )

W_C, you must see it, to map for it, its that simple. i personally did not like the mod well enuff to map for it, the effort involved vs. the results is out of proportion to one of my limited time, and skills. you are apt to work on a map for months only to scrap it due to design/layout issues.

as much as i say i map for the pleasure, i also am not about to waste months on something my skill won't let me complete.

Play the game, view the overheads and read the mapping guidelines (Which is about 1 hours worth of reading). If your satisfied you can do a good job and make something thats up to standard which you can stick at, do it. If not, don't bother.

Cassius has covered my view on the texture issue pretty much to the word, so rather than bother writing it all down and essentially repeating what has been said, just refer to his post :smile:

KungFuSquirrel said:
The NS texture sets are among the most powerful and flexible I have ever seen or used. Cory did an excellent job with them, especially in the new ns2.wad.

I have to strongly disagree with the preceding comments on textures. No matter what there will be generic cookie cutter maps, but the NS textures are so flexible that a good and creative mapper can do wonders with them. And, quite frankly, most custom textures I've seen in NS maps suck. There are exceptions, but breaking from the 'norm' just for its own sake is no good reason to not make use of the fantastic artwork available.

In fact, the "overused textures" bit has just become a blanket criticism of NS, such to the point that I have been criticized for my over-use of the "overused" wall_lab texture set in Eclipse - when half the people out there still call that texture set the Eclipse set because it was my map that established them as being that used in the first place.

The NS texture sets help create the idea of a consistent and believable universe, which I think is one of the strongest points (visually) of the mod. You know it's an NS map. It's not just a cluster of maps, it's an entire universe being created.

Yes, I agree with the point on creating the "NS world".. but the textures, being so good and fairly similar to each other in large numbers has led to (IMO) some mappers sacrificing good brushwork or originality only to be saved by the textures.

I would personally love to see (obviously within time restraints whatever) the NS world expanded to included more "facilities/craft/labs" or whatever..